"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Again, examples please.

Sure, 10% Rageta.

I can't see how someone killing the upper gods won't cause anyone to take action. In one universe like with Majin Buu, sure. All 12 universes and it's done by the same guy and no one cares? I'm not buying it.

I'm not sure why you seem to think this won't be revealed in the anime? It's a pretty big plot point and will likely be present there as well, they just haven't gotten to it yet.

[kinisking]

No coherent is absolutely the right word. It stays consistent within itself and does not create situations statements previously made need to be retracted in order for the story to make sense.

Again, examples please.

Sure, 10% Rageta.

You might not have seen my original comment, but I was talking about this chapter. Also, 10% rageta means nothing considering Beerus also lied about 100%.

[TheMikado]

Again, examples please.

Sure, 10% Rageta.

You might not have seen my original comment, but I was talking about this chapter. Also, 10% rageta means nothing considering Beerus also lied about 100%.

Let's not start with explaining things way with head canon, but you're right you did say this chapter.

I posted a nice list early but I'll just use this one example.
The anime had positioned itself into a possible casual loop, time paradox which would contradict Toriyamas rules of time travel. The manga possibly presents a scenario where nothing we know previously is violated. Hence over all this chapter makes a coherent narrative linking back to its source material. That said the anime will still have chances to correct course, but given its tendency to contradict itself it's unlikely.

[Hellspawn28]

Seeing people on other forums complain that Super manga is like fan fiction now...

Geez people love to sling that and "non-canon" for anything they don't like

I think Trunks stopping Buu was done better in Super than it was in Shin Budokai 2 if you ask me. Shin Budokai 2 had Super Buu absorbing Mystic Future Gohan, SSj3 Gotenks, Coola, Broli and Piccolo then somehow is able to have Kid Buu on his side.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Seeing people on other forums complain that Super manga is like fan fiction now...

Geez people love to sling that and "non-canon" for anything they don't like

I think Trunks stopping Buu was done better in Super than it was in Shin Budokai 2 if you ask me. Shin Budokai 2 had Super Buu absorbing Mystic Future Gohan, SSj3 Gotenks, Coola, Broli and Piccolo then somehow is able to have Kid Buu on his side.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I agree.

[Lujin_16]

I don't understand why some says that the manga is better than the anime just because there is something new ???lol...Some are judging to early i mean maybe they will show

it later and of course they will show us new things we have not seen in the manga..

[Hellspawn28]

Seeing people on other forums complain that Super manga is like fan fiction now...

Geez people love to sling that and "non-canon" for anything they don't like

I think Trunks stopping Buu was done better in Super than it was in Shin Budokai 2 if you ask me. Shin Budokai 2 had Super Buu absorbing Mystic Future Gohan, SSj3 Gotenks, Coola, Broli and Piccolo then somehow is able to have Kid Buu on his side.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I agree.

I did see some people say how Future Trunks kill Dabra and Babidi feels like fan fiction and Shin Budokai 2 already did Trunks vs. Babidi years ago.

[Noah]

Black: “Kukuku…Wonderful. The most troublesome one of all…Universe 7’s God of Destruction…How fortunate that there’s a world without him…”

This actually confirms that Beerus is indeed the strongest among all Hakaishins?

[Sandubadear]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Loved this telekinesis fight.

[TheMikado]

I think Trunks stopping Buu was done better in Super than it was in Shin Budokai 2 if you ask me. Shin Budokai 2 had Super Buu absorbing Mystic Future Gohan, SSj3 Gotenks, Coola, Broli and Piccolo then somehow is able to have Kid Buu on his side.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I agree.

I did see some people say how Future Trunks kill Dabra and Babidi feels like fan fiction and Shin Budokai 2 already did Trunks vs. Babidi years ago.

Some of the fan base seems entirely delusions.. I'm watching someone complain that the Super manga is like bad fiction. Someone chimes in and says the entirety of Super has fan fiction elements.. original guy proceeds to state why all the recolors, evil clones, etc aren't fan fictions while the manga specifically is.... the level of cognitive dissonance required to do that is just...

To be honest I don't even understand why there's hatred toward the manga other than contradicting things in the anime..?

[HeroR]

I'm not sure why you seem to think this won't be revealed in the anime? It's a pretty big plot point and will likely be present there as well, they just haven't gotten to it yet.

Not the first time the manga changed something. Like we know that Dabura in the anime didn't kill the Supreme Kai and it's an open question if he's even dead in the anime. We just assumed it to be the case since the manga revealed the link between the Supreme Kai and the Gods of Destruction.

And, until proven otherwise, I am not willing to give this plot point the benefit of the doubt.

[Alee9977]

I'm glad that in the manga there are more characters fighting than just Goku and Vegeta.

[Terez]

So the manga won't have a time paradox?

Yeah, it's much better written.

Not so true, depends how things play out. I assume you're thinking that Zamasu travels to Trunks' world and stays there with/creates Black?

Things could still unravel into a paradox, but the manga is doing a good job at avoiding painting that picture for now:

The biggest problem was by far the fact that the anime presents a presumed causal loop of Trunks coming to the past for help with Black causing Goku to go to Universe 10 and trigger Zamasu's future actions, which shouldn't happen since Goku wasn't on the path for that interaction before Trunks' arrival and thus Trunks' timeline shouldn't be under threat from Black if present Zamasu is the origin of this mess. However, the manga has Zamasu learn about Goku and his strength that surpasses gods from Universe 7's Kaioshin. The impetus is set to spark his descent with or without Future Trunks arrival.

The suggestion this chapter that Black is not native to Trunks' timeline, since he was happy to find a world without Beerus, is another potential key point. But it's less important than the above until more information is revealed.

I'm not sure it's even possible for Toyotarô to avoid the paradox in that manner, though. Just the fact that Trunks is in the main timeline at all means that Trunks is contributing to Black's past. Even if the differences are small between what would have happened if Trunks had never come to the main timeline, minimal butterfly fallout is still butterfly fallout, and it leads to a paradox. The only way we can avoid the paradox at this point is if Toyotarô indicates another timeline was created when Trunks went to the main timeline—Black's own past—for help. Or, if Black originated from that 5th timeline about which we know nothing except that it was created a few years ago. But that has only been mentioned in the anime so far.

All that said, it is rather interesting that Toyotarô is taking a different path. I wonder if we'll see Black pulled into the main timeline in the next chapter, or whether it's too late for that.

[LightBing]

Since Black left Capsule Corp, the whole following the hole creating by the time-machine seems to be out the window. Will Goku vs Black round 1 even happen? That's a major plot difference!

Another few interesting lines from this chapter:

Zamasu: “I really admire you two. I heard how you handled Majin Boo a few years ago.”
Kaioshin: “No, we didn’t do it alone. And besides, actions like that are supposed to be a God of Destruction’s role.”
Kibito: “But our universe’s God of Destruction is always sleeping, so…”


It seems Beerus should have handled Boo and did nothing in both times Boo was active, because he's such a sleepy kitty...

It seems as if somebody listened to me when I suggested Kaioshin and Hakaishin should work together. The only difference is that the former needs permission! As I said long ago, it makes sense. The Kaioshin observe and while the Hakaishin destroy indiscriminately, it's great for balance to communicate special requests of certain threats. They hardly meet each other outside of necessity due to not getting along, but I think events forcing cooperation should have procedure. Universe 6 and Universe 7 may be the only set of universes where their gods are so disorganized.

We know they have meetings every one thousand years, it's just that Beerus doesn't cooperate. In the last meeting he sealed the Old Kai, which in Trunks timeline ironically contributed to his own death. Since the Old isn't an idiot like Kaioshin, he would mention the potaras or unlock Trunks potential, both would be enough to ensure an easy victory over Babidi.

I'm glad that in the manga there are more characters fighting than just Goku and Vegeta.

Me too, I would have never guessed we would witness Kibito having a fight! If I remember the manga correctly, it's his first actual fight ever. I liked his style.

[TheMikado]

Not so true, depends how things play out. I assume you're thinking that Zamasu travels to Trunks' world and stays there with/creates Black?

Things could still unravel into a paradox, but the manga is doing a good job at avoiding painting that picture for now:

The biggest problem was by far the fact that the anime presents a presumed causal loop of Trunks coming to the past for help with Black causing Goku to go to Universe 10 and trigger Zamasu's future actions, which shouldn't happen since Goku wasn't on the path for that interaction before Trunks' arrival and thus Trunks' timeline shouldn't be under threat from Black if present Zamasu is the origin of this mess. However, the manga has Zamasu learn about Goku and his strength that surpasses gods from Universe 7's Kaioshin. The impetus is set to spark his descent with or without Future Trunks arrival.

The suggestion this chapter that Black is not native to Trunks' timeline, since he was happy to find a world without Beerus, is another potential key point. But it's less important than the above until more information is revealed.

I'm not sure it's even possible for Toyotarô to avoid the paradox in that manner, though. Just the fact that Trunks is in the main timeline at all means that Trunks is contributing to Black's past. Even if the differences are small between what would have happened if Trunks had never come to the main timeline, minimal butterfly fallout is still butterfly fallout, and it leads to a paradox. The only way we can avoid the paradox at this point is if Toyotarô indicates another timeline was created when Trunks went to the main timeline—Black's own past—for help. Or, if Black originated from that 5th timeline about which we know nothing except that it was created a few years ago. But that has only been mentioned in the anime so far.

All that said, it is rather interesting that Toyotarô is taking a different path. I wonder if we'll see Black pulled into the main timeline in the next chapter, or whether it's too late for that.

Well no, we don't know for certain, but this method strongly implies Zamasu would have been corrupted and aware of Goku regardless of whether Trunks had comeback to the time line or not.

[Terez]

The biggest problem was by far the fact that the anime presents a presumed causal loop of Trunks coming to the past for help with Black causing Goku to go to Universe 10 and trigger Zamasu's future actions, which shouldn't happen since Goku wasn't on the path for that interaction before Trunks' arrival and thus Trunks' timeline shouldn't be under threat from Black if present Zamasu is the origin of this mess. However, the manga has Zamasu learn about Goku and his strength that surpasses gods from Universe 7's Kaioshin. The impetus is set to spark his descent with or without Future Trunks arrival.

The suggestion this chapter that Black is not native to Trunks' timeline, since he was happy to find a world without Beerus, is another potential key point. But it's less important than the above until more information is revealed.

I'm not sure it's even possible for Toyotarô to avoid the paradox in that manner, though. Just the fact that Trunks is in the main timeline at all means that Trunks is contributing to Black's past. Even if the differences are small between what would have happened if Trunks had never come to the main timeline, minimal butterfly fallout is still butterfly fallout, and it leads to a paradox. The only way we can avoid the paradox at this point is if Toyotarô indicates another timeline was created when Trunks went to the main timeline—Black's own past—for help. Or, if Black originated from that 5th timeline about which we know nothing except that it was created a few years ago. But that has only been mentioned in the anime so far.

All that said, it is rather interesting that Toyotarô is taking a different path. I wonder if we'll see Black pulled into the main timeline in the next chapter, or whether it's too late for that.

Well no, we don't know for certain, but this method strongly implies Zamasu would have been corrupted and aware of Goku regardless of whether Trunks had comeback to the time line or not.

Again, that might be true, but it doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for Trunks not to have influenced Black's past in any way, even if the influence is minor, so there's a paradox anyway unless another timeline was created, because Trunks has now become a part of Black's past. Whether or not he was a major factor in Zamasu's descent is irrelevant; Trunks is doing things in the main timeline that have already happened from Black's perspective. Of course, the more involved Trunks gets, and the more he contributes to Goku's meeting with Black (as we see in the anime), the more ironic the paradox becomes. But it's a paradox either way.

[TheMikado]

I'm not sure it's even possible for Toyotarô to avoid the paradox in that manner, though. Just the fact that Trunks is in the main timeline at all means that Trunks is contributing to Black's past. Even if the differences are small between what would have happened if Trunks had never come to the main timeline, minimal butterfly fallout is still butterfly fallout, and it leads to a paradox. The only way we can avoid the paradox at this point is if Toyotarô indicates another timeline was created when Trunks went to the main timeline—Black's own past—for help. Or, if Black originated from that 5th timeline about which we know nothing except that it was created a few years ago. But that has only been mentioned in the anime so far.

All that said, it is rather interesting that Toyotarô is taking a different path. I wonder if we'll see Black pulled into the main timeline in the next chapter, or whether it's too late for that.

Well no, we don't know for certain, but this method strongly implies Zamasu would have been corrupted and aware of Goku regardless of whether Trunks had comeback to the time line or not.

Again, that might be true, but it doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for Trunks not to have influenced Black's past in any way, even if the influence is minor, so there's a paradox anyway unless another timeline was created, because Trunks has now become a part of Black's past. Whether or not he was a major factor in Zamasu's descent is irrelevant; Trunks is doing things in the main timeline that have already happened from Black's perspective. Of course, the more involved Trunks gets, and the more he contributes to Goku's meeting with Black (as we see in the anime), the more ironic the paradox becomes. But it's a paradox either way.

There currently is no traceable paradox in the manga at this point, that doesn't mean there won't be. I would wait and see but your paradox assumes a butterfly effect rule that doesn't seem to exist that we know of in the Dragonball universe.

[Terez]

The butterfly effect is just a matter of logic; Trunks has already told them about Black and that has to influence their actions in some way. So Black has affected his own past, whether directly or indirectly. But even if he had no influence at all, just the fact that Trunks exists in Black's past at all is a paradox.

[TheMikado]

The butterfly effect is just a matter of logic; Trunks has already told them about Black and that has to influence their actions in some way. So Black has affected his own past, whether directly or indirectly. But even if he had no influence at all, just the fact that Trunks exists in Black's past at all is a paradox.

I'm not sure paradox means what you think it does.
Trunks existing in Blacks past without his knowledge presents no paradox at this point. I understand what you are saying, but present Zamasu is starting down a path that make lead him to Trunks completely independently.
It's very possible that by the time they get to Zamasu he could have already started whatever events that would eventually lead to and create black regardless of whether they had visited Present Zamasu or not. A paradox only exists in the Trunks presence in the past actually affects Blacks Past and thus the future. This hasn't proven to be the case yet in the manga. Until we see a link that shows Trunks action of going to the past caused Blacks creation we cannot make that determination.

There's a strong possibility that the present Zamasu is actually killed by Beerus but he will have already done whatever it is he did in the manga.

[Terez]

The butterfly effect is just a matter of logic; Trunks has already told them about Black and that has to influence their actions in some way. So Black has affected his own past, whether directly or indirectly. But even if he had no influence at all, just the fact that Trunks exists in Black's past at all is a paradox.

I'm not sure paradox means what you think it does.

I'm pretty sure I know what it means.

Trunks existing in Blacks past without his knowledge presents no paradox at this point.

It does, because Trunks's own past is his future, and Black's own future is his past. This paradox was inevitable when they crossed paths in traveling between timelines.

In any case, Whis is already talking about investigating gods to see if any are in danger of becoming evil, so that's something Trunks already affected. We will never know how events would have happened without Trunks's influence, unless Black really did originate from the 5th timeline, or a new timeline was just created.