Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Like logically why can he change the 6-10-15 scale but not the absorption thing?

That scale was just a little comment made in an interview for the Battle of Gods movie at the time. The absorption was a vital enough plot point carried over two movies and even had it's own form in a game.

That's not something you can so easily throw away. If Toriyama changed his mind and wants to keep Beerus above Goku without restricting Goku's strenght gains I can understand that. To completely undo him absorbing the power and weakening him all the way back down to what he was before he fought Beerus without any explanation is just too much.

The issue of characters being drastically stronger than those who can shake the universe with punches is something I think the anime already tried to fix by having Goku learn whatever technique he was he learned that cancelled that out.

[HeroR]

Like logically why can he change the 6-10-15 scale but not the absorption thing?

That scale was just a little comment made in an interview for the Battle of Gods movie at the time. The absorption was a vital enough plot point carried over two movies and even had it's own form in a game.

That's not something you can so easily throw away. If Toriyama changed his mind and wants to keep Beerus above Goku without restricting Goku's strenght gains I can understand that. To completely undo him absorbing the power and weakening him all the way back down to what he was before he fought Beerus without any explanation is just too much.

The issue of characters being drastically stronger than those who can shake the universe with punches is something I think the anime already tried to fix by having Goku learn whatever technique he was he learned that cancelled that out.

Also, if Toriyama really wanted to undo the absorption part, he had the prime opportunity with the retellings. He could have told the anime staff that he didn't want Goku to absorb godhood and instead make Super Saiyan God its own form, and carry that change into Resurrection 'F'. Instead, the anime got rid of Goku becoming Super Saiyan God again, matching Toriyama's interview about Goku not needing it anymore.

[TheMikado]

Like logically why can he change the 6-10-15 scale but not the absorption thing?

That scale was just a little comment made in an interview for the Battle of Gods movie at the time. The absorption was a vital enough plot point carried over two movies and even had it's own form in a game.

That's not something you can so easily throw away. If Toriyama changed his mind and wants to keep Beerus above Goku without restricting Goku's strenght gains I can understand that. To completely undo him absorbing the power and weakening him all the way back down to what he was before he fought Beerus without any explanation is just too much.

The issue of characters being drastically stronger than those who can shake the universe with punches is something I think the anime already tried to fix by having Goku learn whatever technique he was he learned that cancelled that out.

Also, if Toriyama really wanted to undo the absorption part, he had the prime opportunity with the retellings. He could have told the anime staff that he didn't want Goku to absorb godhood and instead make Super Saiyan God its own form, and carry that change into Resurrection 'F'. Instead, the anime got rid of Goku becoming Super Saiyan God again, matching Toriyama's interview about Goku not needing it anymore.

As I stated multiple times now, you are basing it off of information from YEARS ago before Super was in production. We don't know at what point the production team actually got new material and it appears they were adapting the movies, hence why we have things like 10% Rageta. It's a strong possibility that by the time they got new material with the new direction :
1) it was too late in the production process to change it

2) they figured they could make it work and adapt it with their power scale, especially since they already could have had the filler arc planned and produced.

We know the time between the final scripts and when they produce an arc is very short, so it's a strong possibility it too late to retcon that.

[ekrolo2]

As I stated multiple times now, you are basing it off of information from YEARS ago before Super was in production. We don't know at what point the production team actually got new material and it appears they were adapting the movies, hence why we have things like 10% Rageta. It's a strong possibility that by the time they got new material with the new direction :
1) it was too late in the production process to change it

2) they figured they could make it work and adapt it with their power scale, especially since they already could have had the filler arc planned and produced.

We know the time between the final scripts and when they produce an arc is very short, so it's a strong possibility it too late to retcon that.

This is why I don't use the F manga when talking about Dragon Ball Supers: they were made with two different guidelines in mind. The F manga is made to promote the film, ergo, whatever the movie does/says the manga has to do it. The Super one is much looser and it's essentially Toyotaro doing his own interpretation of Toriyama's scripts, the same way Toei's anime is their interpretation.

Toei decided that the absorption thing was important to keep, Toyotaro decided not to do it and I don't hear Toriyama crying foul about either of them. If he did, he would have made Toyotaro keep that in the manga seeing as he's supervising that.

[TheMikado]

^ Exactly, the idea that they HAVE to keep something that was written for a different purpose altogether is absurd.

If Toriyama didn't like the direction of the manga it wouldn't be allowed to go that way since he said himself he reviews and changes things he doesn't like. Due to the production schedule there's a 99% chance that information in the manga was more recently reviewed and allowed to be published by Toriyama himself.

I don't see why he's not allowed to change his mind on statements and movies he made years ago? Especially when he's done it dozens of times in the series without making any kind of grand announcement to help us reconcile our head canon.

[HeroR]

As I stated multiple times now, you are basing it off of information from YEARS ago before Super was in production. We don't know at what point the production team actually got new material and it appears they were adapting the movies, hence why we have things like 10% Rageta. It's a strong possibility that by the time they got new material with the new direction :
1) it was too late in the production process to change it

2) they figured they could make it work and adapt it with their power scale, especially since they already could have had the filler arc planned and produced.

We know the time between the final scripts and when they produce an arc is very short, so it's a strong possibility it too late to retcon that.

Again, it wasn't years ago. Toriyama wrote Resurrection 'F' in 2014 and it was adapted into a film in 2015. Super was then released in 2015. At most, it was one year.

Toriyama had the chance to retcon anything he wanted to change when the production staff did the retellings. If really wanted Goku not to absorb Super Saiyan God, he could have easily told them. It couldn't be late in the production process because Super was rushed and they were literally changing stuff at the last minute. Unless you think Toriyama didn't communicate with the production team, the chances that he retcon something and told no one but the manga artist makes little to no sense.

^ Exactly, the idea that they HAVE to keep something that was written for a different purpose altogether is absurd.

If Toriyama didn't like the direction of the manga it wouldn't be allowed to go that way since he said himself he reviews and changes things he doesn't like. Due to the production schedule there's a 99% chance that information in the manga was more recently reviewed and allowed to be published by Toriyama himself.

I don't see why he's not allowed to change his mind on statements and movies he made years ago? Especially when he's done it dozens of times in the series without making any kind of grand announcement to help us reconcile our head canon.

The problem is you have no proof that he changed his mind outside of a manga that he told can change stuff. All you have are assumptions, which can easily be picked apart. And again, Resurrection 'F' was written in 2014 and came out in 2015, the same years as Super. It hasn't been years.

[ekrolo2]

The problem is you have no proof that he changed his mind outside of a manga that he told can change stuff. All you have are assumptions, which can easily be picked apart. And again, Resurrection 'F' was written in 2014 and came out in 2015, the same years as Super. It hasn't been years.

The fact he doesn't care about his own "rules" enough to enforce them should serve as a good indicator of how he thinks about the minutia of Dragon Ball: not at all.

Literally everything he's said either in interviews or from the movies has been altered in some way by both the manga and the anime. The God scale, and yes BoG the movie supported his 6-10-15 scale by saying Beerus used as much as 70% power in the actual movie, is nowhere to be seen in either the manga or the anime. Hell, the anime flat out has him admit he's lying throughout his entire fight with Goku. Hell, Toriyama broke his whole "rule" about Goku never needing to use God when he absorbed it by having him turn into God in the last part of his fight with Beerus.

Blue apparently wasn't a powerful enough color for a Super Saiyan transformation and now its THE main color being rammed down everyone's throats. Super Saiyan 2 & 3 being benched in favor of Base & SS1? Both the anime and manga have brought them back. Hell, after Resurrection F it was starting to look doubtful even regular Super Saiyan was going to come back seeing as Blue was essentially a Super Saiyan form for a Saiyan who has God power. And yet, both the anime and manga brought that back too.

And here's another one that's not been brought up yet: Vegeta being the main hero of the next film (this next film eventually being F). He said this was nothing but intentions of course and F certainly didn't give Vegeta anything halfway meaningful to do which adds further credence to a simple fact with the new material: Toriyama doesn't care about the finer details and what he intends at one point isn't what he'll have in mind later.

Hell, just look at the Boo Saga for more proof of this, he intended on Gohan taking over but when that didn't feel right he went through a bunch of loops to make Goku top dog again. Not only did his whole plan shift suddenly, it shifted while he was writing the actual series. Meaning that between him having Gohan take over to deciding Goku's gonna stay the main guy after all, there can't have been more than a few weeks in-between said decisions changing.

[TheMikado]

The problem is you have no proof that he changed his mind outside of a manga that he told can change stuff. All you have are assumptions, which can easily be picked apart. And again, Resurrection 'F' was written in 2014 and came out in 2015, the same years as Super. It hasn't been years.

Lol no but serious, it's late 2016. As you said F was written in 2014. The actual idea occurred in BoG. As stated the decision to make Super came after. I'm don't understand why you think they wouldn't change parts of the story to provide for new serialized material later on. I'm not stating it did or didnt happen. Merely there's a strong possibility considering everything we know about the production and Toriyamas involvement in the manga.

Also you keep saying he didn't tell the anime production and that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm saying it's likely by the time they realize it, ii was too late to change it.

[HeroR]

The problem is you have no proof that he changed his mind outside of a manga that he told can change stuff. All you have are assumptions, which can easily be picked apart. And again, Resurrection 'F' was written in 2014 and came out in 2015, the same years as Super. It hasn't been years.

Lol no but serious, it's late 2016. As you said F was written in 2014. The actual idea occurred in BoG. As stated the decision to make Super came after. I'm don't understand why you think they wouldn't change parts of the story to provide for new serialized material later on. I'm not stating it did or didnt happen. Merely there's a strong possibility considering everything we know about the production and Toriyamas involvement in the manga.

Also you keep saying he didn't tell the anime production and that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm saying it's likely by the time they realize it, ii was too late to change it.

Super came out in 2015 and he wrote the Champa Saga in 2015. He also began writing the Future Trunks Saga in 2015. So it doesn't matter what year it is now. What matter is what year everything was written. If he changed his mind, he had more than enough time to tell the anime staff to rewrite the BOG Saga and Resurrection 'F'.

The idea was made in BOG, but Resurrection 'F', which he wrote by himself, carried on the idea that Goku absorbed godhood. And the only thing we know about the manga is that Toriyama looks over, approves of it, and gave the author his blessing to changes things. He does the exact same thing for the anime, so the manga isn't special in this regard.

[TheMikado]

Super came out in 2015 and he wrote the Champa Saga in 2015. He also began writing the Future Trunks Saga in 2015. So it doesn't matter what year it is now. What matter is what year everything was written. If he changed his mind, he had more than enough time to tell the anime staff to rewrite the BOG Saga and Resurrection 'F'.

My point is that this is an incredibly BOLD assumption to make which has no real basis. We have no idea exactly when he wrote these but we know Super had to be in production before it's air date of July 2015.i don't understand why you think they would have enough time time to completely rewrite BOG and ROF when we don't know if Toriyama wrote new arcs after Super already stated airing.


For reference, I'm stating there is a chance that the anime production team would not have gotten new arc information in time to change BOG and ROF arcs to accommodate it. You seem to state that they would have plenty of time to change it despite not knowing when the information actually got into their hands??

I'm also not stating the manga is special, I'm saying it has a production advantage in that the time between conception and publishing is extremely short when compared to a televised production. If the writer and editor wants to make changes the day before it hits print, they have a distinct advantage that the anime does not have in being flexible, current, and incorporating new and forward thinking information.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The idea was made in BOG, but Resurrection 'F', which he wrote by himself, carried on the idea that Goku absorbed godhood. And the only thing we know about the manga is that Toriyama looks over, approves of it, and gave the author his blessing to changes things. He does the exact same thing for the anime, so the manga isn't special in this regard.

Actually, Toriyama doesn't approve the changes/additions/expansions that are made in the anime.

[ekrolo2]

The idea was made in BOG, but Resurrection 'F', which he wrote by himself, carried on the idea that Goku absorbed godhood. And the only thing we know about the manga is that Toriyama looks over, approves of it, and gave the author his blessing to changes things. He does the exact same thing for the anime, so the manga isn't special in this regard.

Actually, Toriyama doesn't approve the changes/additions/expansions that are made in the anime.

Isn't he also not really inclined to bother them because he wants the anime staff, or the animators as I heard it, have freedom to do what they want?

[Kaboom]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The idea was made in BOG, but Resurrection 'F', which he wrote by himself, carried on the idea that Goku absorbed godhood. And the only thing we know about the manga is that Toriyama looks over, approves of it, and gave the author his blessing to changes things. He does the exact same thing for the anime, so the manga isn't special in this regard.

Actually, Toriyama doesn't approve the changes/additions/expansions that are made in the anime.

That is not 100% a fact though. His comments on Trunks arc still make it ambiguous on if he approves the expanded stuff or not.

[TheMikado]

The idea was made in BOG, but Resurrection 'F', which he wrote by himself, carried on the idea that Goku absorbed godhood. And the only thing we know about the manga is that Toriyama looks over, approves of it, and gave the author his blessing to changes things. He does the exact same thing for the anime, so the manga isn't special in this regard.

Actually, Toriyama doesn't approve the changes/additions/expansions that are made in the anime.

That is not 100% a fact though. His comments on Trunks arc still make it ambiguous on if he approves the expanded stuff or not.

I think what was stated above means we do not know the actual production process or approval methods. We have explicit information that Toybles manga gets direct review by Toriyama at some point prior to publishing. We have no such confirmation on the anime side.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

Thanks for the clarification!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

Toriyama said that he hadn't seen the final scripts of the last episodes of the Future Trunks arc, meaning that they don't sent him the final scripts for approval like Toyotaro does with the manga. That means that Toriyama sends them the outlines, and then the Toei writers do whatever the hell they like with them.

[LightBing]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

Toriyama said that he hadn't seen the final scripts of the last episodes of the Future Trunks arc, meaning that they don't sent him the final scripts for approval like Toyotaro does with the manga. That means that Toriyama sends them the outlines, and then the Toei writers do whatever the hell they like with them.

Doesn't that just mean they hadn't finished the scripts yet? Otherwise he would just say he saw no scripts at all or wouldn't even mention it, instead of implying the last few was the only ones he didn't see.

[Draconic]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

Toriyama said that he hadn't seen the final scripts of the last episodes of the Future Trunks arc, meaning that they don't sent him the final scripts for approval like Toyotaro does with the manga. That means that Toriyama sends them the outlines, and then the Toei writers do whatever the hell they like with them.

There’s some confusing bits with time changing here and there, but just bear with me. It should definitely turn out to be a fun story! Even I haven’t checked the final script yet. Let’s enjoy this together (laughs)!!

He hadn't seen them yet, which means he will see them eventually and that he probably saw the early ones.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama provides the rough outlines for Super's story. We know that Toyotaro presents his own manga drafts to Toriyama for approval/input, but we don't know if Toei's staff does anything similar.

Toriyama said that he hadn't seen the final scripts of the last episodes of the Future Trunks arc, meaning that they don't sent him the final scripts for approval like Toyotaro does with the manga. That means that Toriyama sends them the outlines, and then the Toei writers do whatever the hell they like with them.

Doesn't that just mean they hadn't finished the scripts yet? Otherwise he would just say he saw no scripts at all or wouldn't even mention it, instead of implying the last few was the only ones he didn't see.

He literally says that the final scripts are ready, but he hasn't seen them yet. If they were waiting for his approval, they wouldn't be the final scripts.