Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

He literally says that the final scripts are ready, but he hasn't seen them yet. If they were waiting for his approval, they wouldn't be the final scripts.

This is how publications usually work.

Someone writes a draft, in this case it's the original author. That draft is taking to Toei who breaks them down into episodes, makes changes, and add things either to fill details or for humor. A version of that draft is shown to Toriyama, who makes any changes he wants. That draft is taking to Toei who tries to put in those changes, creating the final script or a beta.

In publication, you can have several drafts before you get to the final script. So Toriyama saying he hasn't seen the final script doesn't mean he doesn't know what Toei did or didn't have any input on what went into the final script. Given how complex this saga is, I wouldn't be surprise if they were two of three drafts before the final script.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He literally says that the final scripts are ready, but he hasn't seen them yet. If they were waiting for his approval, they wouldn't be the final scripts.

This is how publications usually work.

Someone writes a draft, in this case it's the original author. That draft is taking to Toei who breaks them down into episodes, makes changes, and add things either to fill details or for humor. A version of that draft is shown to Toriyama, who makes any changes he wants. That draft is taking to Toei who tries to put in those changes, creating the final script or a beta.

In publication, you can have several drafts before you get to the final script. So Toriyama saying he hasn't seen the final script doesn't mean he doesn't know what Toei did or didn't have any input on what went into the final script. Given how complex this saga is, I wouldn't be surprise if they were two of three drafts before the final script.

We are told by Toriyama himself that he hasn't seen the final scripts yet, and you argue that the final scripts aren't actually the final scripts?

[TheMikado]

Debating further would be a waste of time.

As such I'll just bring this all home.

My point from the beginning is that Supers production schedule could have caused a situation where the script writers were developing and possibly even airing episodes of Super based on the movies while Toriyama was working on future arc outlines. During this process Toriyama could have changed his mind about certain things that the anime staff was not aware of until it was too late to change. Creating a situation where things which applied to the movies no longer should have been applied to the serialized format. I'm only stating it as a possibility and would help to explain the differences in the manga and the anime due to a situation like this.

Again I'm not stating anything as fact but merely offering a plausible explanation for the differences between the two media and in turn the power levels they seem to support.

[HeroR]

We are told by Toriyama himself that he hasn't seen the final scripts yet, and you argue that the final scripts aren't actually the final scripts?

In publication, when the term 'final draft' is used, it means the final version. Meaning, this is the version that is going to print, no more changes. In my line of work, it likes this:

Draft 1 - Draft 2 - semi-Final Draft (this is the draft that is all but complete, and this is the last one to have any small changes, nothing big) - Final Draft (this is the complete draft goes straight to print)

Of course, depending on the work and client, you can have up to five or even ten drafts. So, Toriyama probably didn't see the final draft, meaning the draft that was going to print regardless, but he probably seen several drafts before the final. If I had to guess, he most likely saw the second to last draft before the final draft, made any changes and suggestions he want, and then it went to Toei were they made the final changes and sent Final Script to be storyboarded and then eventually animated.

That is how publication work. In fact, the client usually don't see the final version until it's printed, at least in my line of work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We are told by Toriyama himself that he hasn't seen the final scripts yet, and you argue that the final scripts aren't actually the final scripts?

In publication, when the term 'final draft' is used, it means the final version. Meaning, this is the version that is going to print, no more changes. In my line of work, it likes this:

Draft 1 - Draft 2 - semi-Final Draft (this is the draft that is all but complete, and this is the last one to have any small changes, nothing big) - Final Draft (this is the complete draft goes straight to print)

Of course, depending on the work and client, you can have up to five or even ten drafts. So, Toriyama probably didn't see the final draft, meaning the draft that was going to print regardless, but he probably seen several drafts before the final. If I had to guess, he most likely saw the second to last draft before the final draft, made any changes and suggestions he want, and then it went to Toei were they made the final changes and sent Final Script to be storyboarded and then eventually animated.

That is how publication work. In fact, the client usually don't see the final version until it's printed, at least in my line of work.

But if Toriyama is approving the final scripts, then he should see them first in order to make the any changes in case he wants to. So, you are saying that the finals scripts are final scripts until Toriyama decides that he wants to make some changes, turning them into semi-finals scripts? Because the final scripts first need the final approval to be called final scripts.

[HeroR]

=
But if Toriyama is approving the final scripts, then he should see them first in order to make the any changes in case he wants to. So, you are saying that the finals scripts are final scripts until Toriyama decides that he wants to make some changes, turning them into semi-finals scripts? Because the final scripts first need the final approval to be called final scripts.

All Toriyama said that he hasn't seen the final script, which in publication means the script that is going to print regardless of any changes you want to make. Most of my clients don't see the final version of a product until I have it printed and show it to them.

What I said was that Toriyama saw a version of what would become the final script, for the sake of argument let's call this Draft 3. He saw Draft 3, made any small changes he wanted, gave suggestions, or even maybe rewrote entire sections, and that version is sent to Toei. They take Draft 3, put in all the changes and suggestions by Toriyama, and create the Final Script. Since they reached the point where no more changes can be made because they're on a deadline, that version is sent to storyboarding and eventual animation.

In publication, final draft mean final. No more changes.

[TheMikado]

Are we really sitting here debating over a production process we know nothing about. For all we know Toriyama could be hand writing the script and personally composing the music and it's just as likely he scribbled a few things on a napkin and told them to never bother him again.

Anyone who's ACTUALLY IN THE INDUSTRY knows that the production process can look wildly different and unique to each project. The best guesstimate of what the production process looks like is what we're told.

[TheMikado]

=
But if Toriyama is approving the final scripts, then he should see them first in order to make the any changes in case he wants to. So, you are saying that the finals scripts are final scripts until Toriyama decides that he wants to make some changes, turning them into semi-finals scripts? Because the final scripts first need the final approval to be called final scripts.

All Toriyama said that he hasn't seen the final script, which in publication means the script that is going to print regardless of any changes you want to make. Most of my clients don't see the final version of a product until I have it printed and show it to them.

What I said was that Toriyama saw a version of what would become the final script, for the sake of argument let's call this Draft 3. He saw Draft 3, made any small changes he wanted, gave suggestions, or even maybe rewrote entire sections, and that version is sent to Toei. They take Draft 3, put in all the changes and suggestions by Toriyama, and create the Final Script. Since they reached the point where no more changes can be made because they're on a deadline, that version is sent to storyboarding and eventual animation.

In publication, final draft mean final. No more changes.

Wait if the final draft includes all and only Toriyamas changes like you're suggesting, why would he even want to see or comment on not seeing the final script at all??? According to what you're saying he would already know what's in it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

=
But if Toriyama is approving the final scripts, then he should see them first in order to make the any changes in case he wants to. So, you are saying that the finals scripts are final scripts until Toriyama decides that he wants to make some changes, turning them into semi-finals scripts? Because the final scripts first need the final approval to be called final scripts.

All Toriyama said that he hasn't seen the final script, which in publication means the script that is going to print regardless of any changes you want to make. Most of my clients don't see the final version of a product until I have it printed and show it to them.

What I said was that Toriyama saw a version of what would become the final script, for the sake of argument let's call this Draft 3. He saw Draft 3, made any small changes he wanted, gave suggestions, or even maybe rewrote entire sections, and that version is sent to Toei. They take Draft 3, put in all the changes and suggestions by Toriyama, and create the Final Script. Since they reached the point where no more changes can be made because they're on a deadline, that version is sent to storyboarding and eventual animation.

In publication, final draft mean final. No more changes.

But that's not how we are told that it works. Toriyama basically said that he gives them an outline of a story arc, and they split them into episodes, making expansions, additions, and changes wherever they feel it's necessary, while he had't seen the final scripts yet.

Meanwhile, when it comes to the manga, we are told that he allows Toyotaro to expand on his outline & even add his own ideas, but he oversees the manga page-by-page & even personally makes changes if he feels like.

There has never been any mention of Toriyama's further involvement with the anime after giving them his outlines, while Toriyama's involvement with the manga has been mentioned. So, assuming that Toriyama has more involvement than we are told is purely speculation.

[HeroR]

But that's not how we are told that it works. Toriyama basically said that he gives them an outline of a story arc, and they split them into episodes, making expansions, additions, and changes wherever they feel it's necessary, while he had't seen the final scripts yet.

Meanwhile, when it comes to the manga, we are told that he allows Toyotaro to expand on his outline & even add his own ideas, but he oversees the manga page-by-page & even personally makes changes if he feels like.

There has never been any mention of Toriyama's further involvement with the anime after giving them his outlines, while Toriyama's involvement with the manga has been mentioned. So, assuming that Toriyama has more involvement than we are told is purely speculation.

He said that he sends the outline to Toei where they cut them up into episodes and makes changes, and he hasn't seen the final draft. He never said he never saw a draft. It's your assumption that Toei just made a draft of their product and never showed it to to Toriyama, which isn't how production works since stuff like this usually goes through several drafts before the final script.

With the manga, we just know Toriyama looks at it, made one changed throughout the first 12 chapters, which was a gag, and allowed Toyotaro to have artistic license.

I told you how production works, especially in an anime production which is far more complex than a manga. Especially an once a month manga.

[TheMikado]

He said that he sends the outline To Toei where the cut them up into episodes and makes changes, and he hasn't seen the final draft. He never said he never saw a draft. It's your assumption that Toei just made a draft of their product and never showed it to to Toriyama, which isn't how production works since stuff like this usually goes through several drafts before the final script.

You're assuming he does see the drafts though? I'm not sure why your assumptions about Supers production are more correct than his? Your only evidence that Toriyama has ever even looked at a final draft is the one statement where he says he hasn't seen it yet. We don't know if that's standard or not. For instance, he may not have even seen anything for the first arcs as they were adaptations which was the whole point I was making to begin with is that he may not have contributed to their production process and even if he did, he could have changed parts in how he would have wanted them to play out as he wrote the next arcs but it would have been too late to change on the production side.

[Noah]

People will say no sparks but honestly who the hell cares? The manga didn't have them for Gohan vs Dabura and the former was confirmed as a SSJ 2 during that fight.

Don't really want to bring this again, but where's is confirmed that he is indeed as SSJ2?

[Nejishiki]

The story never coins Super Saiyan 2 until Chapter 474. Super Saiyan is only called "Super Saiyan" prior to that chapter. If referring to a databook confirmation instead of an in-universe confirmation, then it would be Daizenshuu 2, which asserts Super Saiyan 2 (for Gohan) only appeared in Volume 37 in its "Growing Up" section.

[Bullza]

So I was thinking, the only way this could really make sense, (if Base Goku was as strong as God) would be if the gap between Base and Super Saiyan was only a small difference as it appeared to be in the Battle of Gods movie and possibly the Battle of Gods saga.

Likewise there wouldn't be a huge gap between Super Saiyan and all the forms either. The multipliers just wouldn't apply.

Zamasu said Goku got tens of times stronger when he went Super Saiyan but if Goku was going from a suppressed state to a full power Super Saiyan state it could work. Maybe?

[ekrolo2]

The story never coins Super Saiyan 2 until Chapter 474. Super Saiyan is only called "Super Saiyan" prior to that chapter. If referring to a databook confirmation instead of an in-universe confirmation, then it would be Daizenshuu 2, which asserts Super Saiyan 2 (for Gohan) only appeared in Volume 37 in its "Growing Up" section.

Still, Toriyama makes a pretty clear distinction for what counts as a Super Saiyan 2 before he actually coins the term in the actual story. We see Goku's consistently have lightning, as does Vegeta's but Gohan's doesn't when he fights Dabura. So either Toriyama messed up that one time or Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan 2 in that battle. Hell, Gohan doesn't even have lightning when he tries to power up to kill Boo nor does he have lightning when he powers up to drag the Z-sword out of its resting place. That's a bit too many times to just chalk it up as a fuck up on Toriyama's part if you ask me.

The one where he powers up against Boo is particularly telling as it happens when Goku and Vegeta have just beaten each other to hell and they still have lightning in their SS2 forms while Gohan still doesn't.

So I was thinking, the only way this could really make sense, (if Base Goku was as strong as God) would be if the gap between Base and Super Saiyan was only a small difference as it appeared to be in the Battle of Gods movie and possibly the Battle of Gods saga.

Likewise there wouldn't be a huge gap between Super Saiyan and all the forms either. The multipliers just wouldn't apply.

Zamasu said Goku got tens of times stronger when he went Super Saiyan but if Goku was going from a suppressed state to a full power Super Saiyan state it could work. Maybe?

Any hope of salvaging Super's anime power levels died with the two base theory which also died the second Trunks didn't get cut in half when he blocked Black's energy sword meant to kill Goku.

[TheMikado]

^ that's funnier to me than it should be.

[ZombieVito]

People will say no sparks but honestly who the hell cares? The manga didn't have them for Gohan vs Dabura and the former was confirmed as a SSJ 2 during that fight.

Don't really want to bring this again, but where's is confirmed that he is indeed as SSJ2?

Dabura's bio in Daizenshuu 7 states he fought SSJ2 Gohan and it makes perfect sense since he is also stated to be Perfect Cell tier.

Any hope of salvaging Super's anime power levels died with the two base theory which also died the second Trunks didn't get cut in half when he blocked Black's energy sword meant to kill Goku.

I think it was very much implied Trunks got a rage boost. His aura more than tripled after all and we don't know for sure Black wasn't holding back in that instance.

[ekrolo2]

Any hope of salvaging Super's anime power levels died with the two base theory which also died the second Trunks didn't get cut in half when he blocked Black's energy sword meant to kill Goku.

I think it was very much implied Trunks got a rage boost. His aura more than tripled after all and we don't know for sure Black wasn't holding back in that instance.

He is definitely NOT holding back. Black is going in with the intention of killing Goku and Goku himself yells "Crap!" when he charges at him. Trunks fucking cannot, can-NOT! block an attack meant to kill a Super Saiyan Blue Goku unless his power is comparable to Goku's. Also, Trunks sure picked a good time to get a rage boost (something that NEVER happens for him, eeevvveeerr). Why didn't he get one when Black killed his mom and Mai? Surely his power increasing many times over thanks to a rage boost would've let him kill Black back when their powers were fairly close to one another?

It doesn't make sense dude. The anime is a lost cause.

[Bullza]

I still think there's a very simple explanation somehow that were just not being told is all.

It's implied that Base Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God. He'd reached a point he could withstand Beerus' unrestrained attacks. You'd think he was probably stronger than him at 10% in a fight by then.

Were shown a fairly even fight between Base Goku and a hampered Beerus. You'd think they'd know that it wouldn't make sense for his best forms to be hundreds of times stronger.

Base Black certainly didn't seem to get hundreds of times stronger when he turned into a Super Saiyan Rose so is it really right to say that Base Goku gets well over 400x times stronger turning Blue? Not really.

[ekrolo2]

I still think there's a very simple explanation somehow that were just not being told is all.

It's implied that Base Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God. He'd reached a point he could withstand Beerus' unrestrained attacks. You'd think he was probably stronger than him at 10% in a fight by then.

Were shown a fairly even fight between Base Goku and a hampered Beerus. You'd think they'd know that it wouldn't make sense for his best forms to be hundreds of times stronger.

Base Black certainly didn't seem to get hundreds of times stronger when he turned into a Super Saiyan Rose so is it really right to say that Base Goku gets well over 400x times stronger turning Blue? Not really.

That still creates a whole mess of issues for other characters, like how Piccolo is apparently God Tier after practicing with a worthless Gohan. Trunks is God Tier too because reasons. Cabba is thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto yet he's never been agitated in combat enough to become a Super Saiyan,... The list goes on.