Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Piccolo ain't God tier. He's just equal to Base Gohan who was training to obtain the powers he used to have back in DBZ.

Characters like Trunks or Cabba being that level isn't really an issue to me, that's just for the sake of the plot. I don't see that as being anything different from a modified teenage girl or Piccolo being as strong as Super Saiyan way back when.

The real issue is that if SSJG/Base Goku is shown to measure up to Beerus the way he does then if he can get hundreds of times stronger then he should not still be weaker than Beerus.

The difference between Base and Super Saiyan Blue should not be enormous. And nobody thought it was enormous originally when the Resurrection F movie came out and it didn't seem that way just recently with Black either.

It doesn't seem right to say SSJB is hundreds of times stronger than SSJG. In fact if the form is just the Super Saiyan form of SSJG wouldn't it only be 50x stronger than God? The regular Super Saiyan forms can still fit within that and be tens of times stronger.

[ekrolo2]

Piccolo ain't God tier. He's just equal to Base Gohan who was training to obtain the powers he used to have back in DBZ.

Characters like Trunks or Cabba being that level isn't really an issue to me, that's just for the sake of the plot. I don't see that as being anything different from a modified teenage girl or Piccolo being as strong as Super Saiyan way back when.

The real issue is that if SSJG/Base Goku is shown to measure up to Beerus the way he does then if he can get hundreds of times stronger then he should not still be weaker than Beerus.

The difference between Base and Super Saiyan Blue should not be enormous. And nobody thought it was enormous originally when the Resurrection F movie came out and it didn't seem that way just recently with Black either.

It doesn't seem right to say SSJB is hundreds of times stronger than SSJG. In fact if the form is just the Super Saiyan form of SSJG wouldn't it only be 50x stronger than God? The regular Super Saiyan forms can still fit within that and be tens of times stronger.

Piccolo is God Tier by virtue of not dropping dead the instant he entered the ring against Frost. If we go by your suggestion where there isn't a big difference between Base and the various forms, Piccolo MUST be up there in the God tiers to even last long enough as he did against Frost in the anime.

Trunks' limitations were already established in Z so I don't buy him getting this strong from non-descript training at all. If he got his potential unlocked or trained with Whis I could buy it but he didn't. For all we know he trained for 10 years in the gravity machine and now he's as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku? When Vegeta couldn't even bypass Cell Games Gohan in almost the same period of time? Not possible.

Same thing with Cabba, I refuse to believe that no Saiyan in the HISTORY of their entire species NEVER got agitated or angry enough or never saw a loved one die to become Super Saiyan's yet Cabba, a relative young fighter is thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto? Fuck that.

[Bullza]

To be fair the one time Frost even punched Piccolo was the one that defeated him and by that point he'd lost that much energy from fighting Goku that he even said he couldn't accidentally kill him anymore.

Cabba was just as strong as Vegeta was (in base form) and Vegeta only got that strong from training. Maybe they have superior training methods in Universe 6. It's not something that makes sense anyway because even with that two base theory, SSJ Vegeta by this point is probably about on par with Super Perfect Cell, a being whose made up of DNA from all the strongest beings in the universe.

Same with Magetta he was just an alien, why should he even be as strong as Namek saga Frieza when apparently those metal men exist in Universe 7 but Frieza is supposed to be one of the strongest in the universe and Beerus can't believe there's someone out there stronger than him.

[ekrolo2]

To be fair the one time Frost even punched Piccolo was the one that defeated him and by that point he'd lost that much energy from fighting Goku that he even said he couldn't accidentally kill him anymore.

Cabba was just as strong as Vegeta was (in base form) and Vegeta only got that strong from training. Maybe they have superior training methods in Universe 6. It's not something that makes sense anyway because even with that two base theory, SSJ Vegeta by this point is probably about on par with Super Perfect Cell, a being whose made up of DNA from all the strongest beings in the universe.

Same with Magetta he was just an alien, why should he even be as strong as Namek saga Frieza when apparently those metal men exist in Universe 7 but Frieza is supposed to be one of the strongest in the universe and Beerus can't believe there's someone out there stronger than him.

I never said any of the U6 characters strenghts were ideal but the anime makes all of them ridiculous. Its a lot easier to buy a Cabba who's strength rivals Namek Freeza in Base than one who's thousands of times stronger than SS3 Vegetto. Same thing with Magetta and Piccolo.

[TheMikado]

I think the more ridiculous scenario is that everyone in the tournament would have the power to punch the universe out of existence except for Piccolo and Buu.

[ZombieVito]

Any hope of salvaging Super's anime power levels died with the two base theory which also died the second Trunks didn't get cut in half when he blocked Black's energy sword meant to kill Goku.

I think it was very much implied Trunks got a rage boost. His aura more than tripled after all and we don't know for sure Black wasn't holding back in that instance.

He is definitely NOT holding back. Black is going in with the intention of killing Goku and Goku himself yells "Crap!" when he charges at him. Trunks fucking cannot, can-NOT! block an attack meant to kill a Super Saiyan Blue Goku unless his power is comparable to Goku's. Also, Trunks sure picked a good time to get a rage boost (something that NEVER happens for him, eeevvveeerr). Why didn't he get one when Black killed his mom and Mai? Surely his power increasing many times over thanks to a rage boost would've let him kill Black back when their powers were fairly close to one another?

It doesn't make sense dude. The anime is a lost cause.

This is giving me serious flashbacks of he whole tanking issue people argued years ago.

The most likely reason Trunks didn't get a rage boost in episode 48 is that he was tired as hell. He didn't even used SSJ2 against Black.

[HeroR]

To be fair the one time Frost even punched Piccolo was the one that defeated him and by that point he'd lost that much energy from fighting Goku that he even said he couldn't accidentally kill him anymore.

Cabba was just as strong as Vegeta was (in base form) and Vegeta only got that strong from training. Maybe they have superior training methods in Universe 6. It's not something that makes sense anyway because even with that two base theory, SSJ Vegeta by this point is probably about on par with Super Perfect Cell, a being whose made up of DNA from all the strongest beings in the universe.

Same with Magetta he was just an alien, why should he even be as strong as Namek saga Frieza when apparently those metal men exist in Universe 7 but Frieza is supposed to be one of the strongest in the universe and Beerus can't believe there's someone out there stronger than him.

The Saiyans in U6 evolved differently from the Saiyans in U7, so their power growth wouldn't be the same. Also, the Saiyans in U6 evolved not to have tails, which Toriyama said is one of the reason why Goten and Trunks are so powerful, they're tailless hybrids. So, you can't really compared the U6 Saiyans to the U7 Saiyans. They maybe the same species, but they went in a different evolutionary line.

Also, U7 and U6 have different histories. Saying since this happened in U7, this should be the case in U6, doesn't work. Especially when we know that Frieza killed anyone he saw as a future threat like his genocide of the Saiyans and his attempted genocide of the Namekians. As far as we know, Frieza or his empire killed all the Metal Man before any one of them could become so powerful. Or maybe the Metal Man evolved differently to make them more powerful.

[Bullza]

I also don't know where SSJ3 Vegito being thousands of times stronger than Super Saiyan God comes from either. It could only be twice as strong for all we know.

In any case going back to what I was saying before, we could be completely wrong for assuming the multipliers we're giving to people like Goku. Surely nobody seriously believes that the intention is that Super Saiyan Blue is like 500x as strong as Super Saiyan God?

Black shows that to be impossible really. Base Black was already strong enough to hurt SSJB Vegeta but upon transforming into his Rose form, Goku is still able to hold his own against him. Trunks is able to hold his own against him.

Ideally the apparently smallish difference between Base and Rose Black is what the difference should be (and what it previously appeared to be) between Base and Blue Goku.

At this point, it's the only way it can make sense.

[TheMikado]

I don't see how you can have the difference between base and blue be small and still fit all the SSJ levels in between while also have Zamasu say several dozen times stronger about Goku going SSJ.

As far as thousands of time SSJ3 Vegito, I think that comes from SSG being equal to base with SSJ3 400x SSG then SSB which if we want to be very conservative we give it an x500 to SSJ3s x 400 on SSG. So now SSB is 500x stronger than SSG Goku was, plus he can do KKx10x SSB to get 5000x stronger than his SSG self in BOG who is still weaker than Beerus while fighting decently enough vs the guy who finger plucked SSJ3 Goku but also says Rageta had him use around 10% of his power...

It's all a lot to take in and reconcile

[Beyond]

Piccolo ain't God tier. He's just equal to Base Gohan who was training to obtain the powers he used to have back in DBZ.

Characters like Trunks or Cabba being that level isn't really an issue to me, that's just for the sake of the plot. I don't see that as being anything different from a modified teenage girl or Piccolo being as strong as Super Saiyan way back when.

The real issue is that if SSJG/Base Goku is shown to measure up to Beerus the way he does then if he can get hundreds of times stronger then he should not still be weaker than Beerus.

The difference between Base and Super Saiyan Blue should not be enormous. And nobody thought it was enormous originally when the Resurrection F movie came out and it didn't seem that way just recently with Black either.

It doesn't seem right to say SSJB is hundreds of times stronger than SSJG. In fact if the form is just the Super Saiyan form of SSJG wouldn't it only be 50x stronger than God? The regular Super Saiyan forms can still fit within that and be tens of times stronger.

You triggered me. Piccolo being ssj level in the android saga (post kami) isn't anywhere near the level of absurdity as a random human with enhancements being that strong.

Also you're fighting a losing battle with the base Goku being god level. In the manga, we know he isn't god level, and the anime is too much of a mess to accurately prove anything. The only consistency in anime power levels is its inconsistency.

[HeroR]

You triggered me. Piccolo being ssj level in the android saga (post kami) isn't anywhere near the level of absurdity as a random human with enhancements being that strong.

Also you're fighting a losing battle with the base Goku being god level. In the manga, we know he isn't god level, and the anime is too much of a mess to accurately prove anything. The only consistency in anime power levels is its inconsistency.

Piccolo was weaker than third form Freeza to the point of being unable to do anything against him. Even against second form Freeza he was weaker power wise, but faster. Meaning that Piccolo's power level after merging with Nail was in the low millions.

Fast forward to the Android Saga, where he can beat up Android 20 who is stronger than Freeza at full power, who was at 120 million. If Piccolo was at, for the sake of argument, 1.2 million when he fought Freeza, that means his power jumped 100x just to match Freeza's full power. This is just from training, no transformations, no fusion, no near death boost. This is pretty crazy. At least the androids have the benefit of watching the Earth's fighters grow over the years. Why did Piccolo get such a huge power boast from training for three years when no one else did.

Black can't be properly gauge at the moment because he sandbags too much. He got hit by Super Saiyan Trunks when he curb stomped Super Saiyan 2 Trunks when they first met. He also sandbag against Goku by matching Goku's Super Saiyan 2, when Trunks said he was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Even against Vegeta before he transformed, he lets Vegeta knock him around despite doing no damaged and he could easily counter. Against Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, he still took no real damage and didn't even get battle damage. In fact, Goku didn't even land a solid hit on him, despite Vegeta earlier being able to get some strikes in before being stabbed, and even then his attacks did nothing but amused Black and he dismissed Vegeta as a mere warmup.

[Bullza]

I don't see how you can have the difference between base and blue be small and still fit all the SSJ levels in between while also have Zamasu say several dozen times stronger about Goku going SSJ.

It could only work if Base Goku was going from a suppressed base state to a serious Super Saiyan state. After all it's not as though he was powered up in battle like when he was fighting Frieza or Hit at that time.

There needs to be some leeway somewhere. How can Super Saiyan be dozen of times stronger than Base if Base Goku was the one who destroyed Beerus' blast?

The idea of their being small gaps between forms would make sense for more things than it would not. It'd make sense why Base Goku can make Hit bleed and the Beerus 10% comment could still work for example.

In the manga, we know he isn't god level, and the anime is too much of a mess to accurately prove anything.

I know he isn't in the manga but the anime...plenty points to it. Base Goku destroys Beerus' blast in place of SSJG, he can withstand his unrestrained attacks, Whis says he's at the level of a God, SSJB is the Super Saiyan form of one who has the power of a SSJG, he puts up a decent fight against Beerus in a costume etc. Then all the stuff outside of the show like the F manga and Saiyan Beyond God point to that general idea.

Wouldn't it just make more sense that he'd just absorbed all that power rather than some unknown portion that just happens to be an amount above Gotenks.

It is something of a mess but personally I'd say a lot of it is our own fault because we apply these fixed numbers towards these forms. Numbers that weren't in the show but some old guide which has information that has already been contradicted by the show.

So while we're saying that SSJ3 Goku is 400x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, for all we know he could be 10x stronger.

[HeroR]

I don't see how you can have the difference between base and blue be small and still fit all the SSJ levels in between while also have Zamasu say several dozen times stronger about Goku going SSJ.

It could only work if Base Goku was going from a suppressed base state to a serious Super Saiyan state. After all it's not as though he was powered up in battle like when he was fighting Frieza or Hit at that time.

There needs to be some leeway somewhere. How can Super Saiyan be dozen of times stronger than Base if Base Goku was the one who destroyed Beerus' blast?

The idea of their being small gaps between forms would make sense for more things than it would not. It'd make sense why Base Goku can make Hit bleed and the Beerus 10% comment could still work for example.

In the manga, we know he isn't god level, and the anime is too much of a mess to accurately prove anything.

I know he isn't in the manga but the anime...plenty points to it. Base Goku destroys Beerus' blast in place of SSJG, he can withstand his unrestrained attacks, Whis says he's at the level of a God, SSJB is the Super Saiyan form of one who has the power of a SSJG, he puts up a decent fight against Beerus in a costume etc. Then all the stuff outside of the show like the F manga and Saiyan Beyond God point to that general idea. Or, how did Piccolo get an over 100x increase in three years after the Freeza Saga.

Wouldn't it just make more sense that he'd just absorbed all that power rather than some unknown portion that just happens to be an amount above Gotenks.

It is something of a mess but personally I'd say a lot of it is our own fault because we apply these fixed numbers towards these forms. Numbers that weren't in the show but some old guide which has information that has already been contradicted by the show.

So while we're saying that SSJ3 Goku is 400x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, for all we know he could be 10x stronger.

Which is why multipliers should never be taking to seriously. Toriyama certainly didn't when he wanted to make Super Saiyan just a 10x increase, which makes little sense since Freeza tanked a Kaio-Ken x20, and thought 50x was too high. When he made Super Saiyan 2, I am certain Toriyama wasn't thinking this is a 2x from Super Saiyan.

[ekrolo2]

Which is why multipliers should never be taking to seriously. Toriyama certainly didn't when he wanted to make Super Saiyan just a 10x increase, which makes little sense since Freeza tanked a Kaio-Ken x20, and thought 50x was too high. When he made Super Saiyan 2, I am certain Toriyama wasn't thinking this is a 2x from Super Saiyan.

TBF, Toriyama did say it was x10 what was up until that point, and up until that point was Goku's increase of KK times 20. Him saying that x50 is too much can be seen as him saying he didn't think Super Saiyan was 50 times Goku's KKX20 power but just 10 times that.

[TheMikado]

I don't see how you can have the difference between base and blue be small and still fit all the SSJ levels in between while also have Zamasu say several dozen times stronger about Goku going SSJ.

It could only work if Base Goku was going from a suppressed base state to a serious Super Saiyan state. After all it's not as though he was powered up in battle like when he was fighting Frieza or Hit at that time.

There needs to be some leeway somewhere. How can Super Saiyan be dozen of times stronger than Base if Base Goku was the one who destroyed Beerus' blast?

The idea of their being small gaps between forms would make sense for more things than it would not. It'd make sense why Base Goku can make Hit bleed and the Beerus 10% comment could still work for example.

In the manga, we know he isn't god level, and the anime is too much of a mess to accurately prove anything.

I know he isn't in the manga but the anime...plenty points to it. Base Goku destroys Beerus' blast in place of SSJG, he can withstand his unrestrained attacks, Whis says he's at the level of a God, SSJB is the Super Saiyan form of one who has the power of a SSJG, he puts up a decent fight against Beerus in a costume etc. Then all the stuff outside of the show like the F manga and Saiyan Beyond God point to that general idea. Or, how did Piccolo get an over 100x increase in three years after the Freeza Saga.

Wouldn't it just make more sense that he'd just absorbed all that power rather than some unknown portion that just happens to be an amount above Gotenks.

It is something of a mess but personally I'd say a lot of it is our own fault because we apply these fixed numbers towards these forms. Numbers that weren't in the show but some old guide which has information that has already been contradicted by the show.

So while we're saying that SSJ3 Goku is 400x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, for all we know he could be 10x stronger.

Which is why multipliers should never be taking to seriously. Toriyama certainly didn't when he wanted to make Super Saiyan just a 10x increase, which makes little sense since Freeza tanked a Kaio-Ken x20, and thought 50x was too high. When he made Super Saiyan 2, I am certain Toriyama wasn't thinking this is a 2x from Super Saiyan.

Making SSJ3 Goku only 10x his base makes zero sense when Zamasu himself say Goku got around several dozen times stronger by going SSJ1. Several meaning 3-4 dozen. 4x12= 48... way too close to 50 to be a coincidence.

I can't believe we're to the point where in order to rationalize this we have SSJ3 as a 10x increase when we have in universe statements, stating something totally different.

[buutenks]

Making SSJ3 Goku only 10x his base makes zero sense when Zamasu himself say Goku got around several dozen times stronger by going SSJ1. Several meaning 3-4 dozen. 4x12= 48... way too close to 50 to be a coincidence.

I can't believe we're to the point where in order to rationalize this we have SSJ3 as a 10x increase when we have in universe statements, stating something totally different.

True, ssj multipliers are still like in dbz.

Also Goku was ssj2 vs Zamasu. Plus several can mean from 3 to 8/9. So it fits in the whole ssj x50 and ssj2 x 2 and so forth.

So in super ssj multipliers are the same. ssj 50x,ssj2 2x and ssj3 4x. This is also evident in ep 5, when once Goku goes ssj2, beerus is surprised that Goku's speed increased that much. And when Goku transforms into ssj3, Beerus says it is considerably stronger than ssj1 and 2.

Also, why are u all debating what multipliers ssj forms give in super?

[TheMikado]

Making SSJ3 Goku only 10x his base makes zero sense when Zamasu himself say Goku got around several dozen times stronger by going SSJ1. Several meaning 3-4 dozen. 4x12= 48... way too close to 50 to be a coincidence.

I can't believe we're to the point where in order to rationalize this we have SSJ3 as a 10x increase when we have in universe statements, stating something totally different.

True, ssj multipliers are still like in dbz.

Also Goku was ssj2 vs Zamasu. Plus several can mean from 3 to 8/9. So it fits in the whole ssj x50 and ssj2 x 2 and so forth.

So in super ssj multipliers are the same. ssj 50x,ssj2 2x and ssj3 4x. This is also evident in ep 5, when once Goku goes ssj2, beerus is surprised that Goku's speed increased that much. And when Goku transforms into ssj3, Beerus says it is considerably stronger than ssj1 and 2.

Also, why are u all debating what multipliers ssj forms give in super?

I thought he was SSJ1 against Zamasu for some reason.
The reason it's in discussion is if you believe Goku is as strong as SSG in base, then SSJ3 is 400x stronger than SSG. That doesn't even include SSB or x10kk.

[buutenks]

I thought he was SSJ1 against Zamasu for some reason.

Proly because Whis said super saiyan in the ep. But most just call all ssj forms super saiyan,except for the z fighters. Black said so this is super saiyan Goku, even tho Goku was a ssj2 gainst him. Nothing wrong with it, since they are basically powered up versions of super saiyan.

The reason it's in discussion is if you believe Goku is as strong as SSG in base, then SSJ3 is 400x stronger than SSG. That doesn't even include SSB or x10kk.

Oh i see. Doubt that, at worst, ssj1 is as strong as ssg.

Tho i myself believe, ssj1 isnt as strong as ssg, and neither is ssj2 or 3. But that is my belief.

[TheMikado]

I thought he was SSJ1 against Zamasu for some reason.

Proly because Whis said super saiyan in the ep. But most just call all ssj forms super saiyan,except for the z fighters. Black said so this is super saiyan Goku, even tho Goku was a ssj2 gainst him. Nothing wrong with it, since they are basically powered up versions of super saiyan.

The reason it's in discussion is if you believe Goku is as strong as SSG in base, then SSJ3 is 400x stronger than SSG. That doesn't even include SSB or x10kk.

Oh i see. Doubt that, at worst, ssj1 is as strong as ssg.

Tho i myself believe, ssj1 isnt as strong as ssg, and neither is ssj2 or 3. But that is my belief.

I think that's the core problem behind power levels right now. It's so ambiguous and inconsistent that everyone finds evidence for whatever they believe. So right now there are people that think base Goku, Trunks, and Piccolo are stronger than SSJ Vegito while other think they are far far far below it in normal non God forms. The level of inconsistency is incredibly high when the gap between the two views is literally several thousands of times different. This isn't the which Buu is strongest argument at all. We had a general idea of where they stood. We've never seen anything like this in the history of the entire franchise.

[Sonicjamareiz]

This has probably been asked before but why doesn't Majin Buu have god ki?