Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, meaning that it has a x50 multiplier. Black was said that he was probably a little stronger than SS3 Goku, and he got even stronger through his fights with SS2 Goku & suppressed SSB Vegeta. SSR Black also appeared a little stronger than SSB Goku. So, assuming that Black = SS3 Goku, and SSR Black = SSB Goku, we get this:

Super Saiyan Blue Goku = Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black = Goku Black x50 = Super Saiyan 3 Goku x50
Super Saiyan 3 Goku = Super Saiyan 2 Goku x4 = Goku Black
Super Saiyan 2 Goku = Super Saiyan Goku x2
Super Saiyan Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku = Goku x50
Goku

But we know that Black is stronger than SS3 Goku, and SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku, but they appear to be on a close level respectively. Adding Beerus we get this:


Beerus
Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Goku = Super Saiyan Blue Goku x10
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black = Goku Black x50
Super Saiyan Blue Goku = Super Saiyan 3 Goku x50
Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku = Super Saiyan 2 Goku x4
Super Saiyan 2 Goku = Super Saiyan Goku x2
Super Saiyan Goku = Super Saiyan God Goku = Goku x50
Goku

[Bullza]

Making SSJ3 Goku only 10x his base makes zero sense when Zamasu himself say Goku got around several dozen times stronger by going SSJ1.

If it were like this then it fits easy.

Suppressed Goku standing before Zamasu - 10
Full Power Goku - 100
Super Saiyan Goku - 120

This has probably been asked before but why doesn't Majin Buu have god ki?

Well he's a Demon, not a God. Perhaps absorbing he Grand Supreme Kai didn't give him that property. Then again maybe he does have it, how do we know he doesn't?

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, meaning that it has a x50 multiplier.

We did?

[Helios518]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, meaning that it has a x50 multiplier.

We did?

Yeah we did in this link

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30157&start=24260#p1155742

[Bullza]

Oh I see, is that really right though? When Present Zamasu saw SSJB Goku on TV he said he was cloaked in the Ki of Gods and Black has pretty much the same kind of thing going on.

And also when Black first saw SSJB, Trunks said that he didn't seem surprised. Then there's also Black's comment about him fully making Goku's power his own.

[Hugo Boss]

This has probably been asked before but why doesn't Majin Buu have god ki?

Well he's a Demon, not a God. Perhaps absorbing he Grand Supreme Kai didn't give him that property. Then again maybe he does have it, how do we know he doesn't

Everyone can feel Boo's ki. The ki of a god can't be felt by mortals unless they are given titles or special training.

[TheMikado]

Making SSJ3 Goku only 10x his base makes zero sense when Zamasu himself say Goku got around several dozen times stronger by going SSJ1.

If it were like this then it fits easy.

Suppressed Goku standing before Zamasu - 10
Full Power Goku - 100
Super Saiyan Goku - 120

Wait? What? Why? Says who? Like where does this even come from or make sense? SSJ gives a 20% boost? So a less than 0.2x multiplier?

[Noah]

. Why did Piccolo get such a huge power boast from training for three years when no one else did.

It's simple: the Piccolo that you talk is the one that have fused with Nail, he's not the same anymore. What we know about Nail, he's the strongest warrior in Namek, way above Piccolo and when he fused with him, it was huge leap in power. Now we don't know how work namekian fusions, but we could say that they can get big improvements with training. "The prodigy" concept is there as with Freeza, who never had trained and aquired a power that he could never dream of, so I don't see Piccolo being strong as SSJ in Android Arc as that ridiculous considering all these factors.

[Chiki]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan

No, it's his version of SSB, since Black is god level. SSB is SSG's version of SS.

[Bullza]

Wait? What? Why? Says who? Like where does this even come from or make sense? SSJ gives a 20% boost? So a less than 0.2x multiplier?

It's merely an example. I know it was in the movie but Goku did not get enormously more powerful turning into a Super Saiyan.

In the Battle of Gods saga it was Base Goku who destroyed the blast that Super Saiyan Goku was struggling with. How much more powerful could it really be?

If his Super Saiyan forms are hundreds of times stronger and Beerus is still stronger than that then why can he survive his unrestrained attacks? Why would he require to be at 10% against Rageta? Beerus wouldn't even require using 1% against SSJG Goku if that were true at which point why would he have been so excited?

If Hit is comparable to Super Saiyan Blue and he's be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku then why can he make him bleed? There's probably not that big of a difference between Gotenks and Copy Vegeta and he couldn't even make him move.

If Beerus had snapped and was starting to get into that fight with Goku and it's in his best interest to finish off Goku quickly so he doesn't find out the truth then why after punching Goku in the face is Goku able to come back for more? The suit wouldn't make him hundreds of times weaker.

How can Black be getting dozens of times stronger upon transforming if Goku and Trunks can keep up with him? Before transforming he was already quick enough to put a finger on Vegeta's neck.

This is all stuff that only makes any kind of sense if the difference isn't that big.

[TheMikado]

Wait? What? Why? Says who? Like where does this even come from or make sense? SSJ gives a 20% boost? So a less than 0.2x multiplier?

It's merely an example. I know it was in the movie but Goku did not get enormously more powerful turning into a Super Saiyan.

In the Battle of Gods saga it was Base Goku who destroyed the blast that Super Saiyan Goku was struggling with. How much more powerful could it really be?

If his Super Saiyan forms are hundreds of times stronger and Beerus is still stronger than that then why can he survive his unrestrained attacks? Why would he require to be at 10% against Rageta? Beerus wouldn't even require using 1% against SSJG Goku if that were true at which point why would he have been so excited?

If Hit is comparable to Super Saiyan Blue and he's be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku then why can he make him bleed? There's probably not that big of a difference between Gotenks and Copy Vegeta and he couldn't even make him move.

If Beerus had snapped and was starting to get into that fight with Goku and it's in his best interest to finish off Goku quickly so he doesn't find out the truth then why after punching Goku in the face is Goku able to come back for more? The suit wouldn't make him hundreds of times weaker.

How can Black be getting dozens of times stronger upon transforming if Goku and Trunks can keep up with him? Before transforming he was already quick enough to put a finger on Vegeta's neck.

This is all stuff that only makes any kind of sense if the difference isn't that big.

You're listing all the reasons the anime power levels should be completely thrown away. You don't have those problems in manga or the movies. In the movies they seem to have a distinct form in SbG. The sensing thing may not be consistent, but at least it's something distinctive.

[Bullza]

I think those multipliers should just be thrown away.

There's gotta be some inconsistency in the show somewhere probably because of all the writers but nothing works if Beerus is supposed to be hundreds or even thousands of times stronger than SSJG/Base Goku.

The Battle of Gods story just doesn't work. The Goku vs Monaka fight makes no sense. And I can accept that Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan God but I can't believe that he'd be over 100 times as strong as Super Saiyan God.

There might be a couple of contradictory things about it but the differences between forms being small is the only way it makes sense.

[TheMikado]

I think those multipliers should just be thrown away.

There's gotta be some inconsistency in the show somewhere probably because of all the writers but nothing works if Beerus is supposed to be hundreds or even thousands of times stronger than SSJG/Base Goku.

The Battle of Gods story just doesn't work. The Goku vs Monaka fight makes no sense. And I can accept that Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan God but I can't believe that he'd be over 100 times as strong as Super Saiyan God.

There might be a couple of contradictory things about it but the differences between forms being small is the only way it makes sense.

I'm not sure how you can throw away something that was explicitly stated was still in place recently just to fit a scenario they didn't state exists. That line of thinking doesn't make sense with Zamasus comment just a little while ago or Dragonball logic in general. So you're ok with Toei overriding Toriyamas work if it makes Super make sense?

[Bullza]

Well I gave my own reasons for Zamasu's comment but that comment exists. The Beerus 10% line exists. The unrestrained attacks comment exists.

One has to be wrong or one has to have more to it.

Between Zamasu referring to his increase as Goku going from suppressed Base to serious Super Saiyan or Beerus only requiring 0.5% of his full power to beat Super Saiyan God questioning why he'd even bothered to seek it out or why he needed to use 10% to handle Rageta even though Rageta appears to be less than 1/10th as strong as Super Saiyan God...I'd believe the former.

There's a lot of things pointing towards the multipliers being small in the series, it matches what would appear to be true for the movie (and maybe the manga) and in general I don't think the intention is that all these characters are dozens or hundreds of times stronger than SSJG.

To me that far outweighs Zamasu's one comment which could mean what I suggested (unlikely though).

There's a very realistic chance that like with DBZ because of the multiple writers involved we've just got some inconsistency somewhere. In which case we'd have to accept that someone, somewhere, wrote a line of dialogue that's just wrong. Taking every line of dialogue as fact has certainly not got us anywhere.

[brett wheeler]

well personally I put it like this. Base goku can be anywhere from base vegito-ssj vegito, he still has access to ssj1-3 and they still give huge boosts but are not on ssg lvl. Goku still can use ssg and ssb but in the anime uses just blue because its a near perfect form ( atleast thats the way the anime portrays it ) while ssg isnt ( my head canon to why the anime doesnt use ssg ) while the manga has it reversed. Black being 50* weaker than ssr makes sense too and makes it more reasonable as to why he can withstand a suppressed ssb vegeta in base also makes more sense to why he achieved it even tho he never saw ssb he just saw ssj ( or 2 witch ever one you thought it was ) and he adapted that power to his own .This also makes trunks,piccolo,ect feats more reasonable trunks has been training and getting his ass whooped for a while so he is naturally around base goku and vegeta, piccolo trained with gohan who appeared to be the same as his mystic power and even had the upper hand so he is slightly stronger than ultimate gohan witch makes sense as to why his sbc can beat frost but he still doesnt want to fight him head on. Over all just by puting base goku between base vegito-ssj vegito you can make everything more clear, ssbkk was toei doing what they do same with the monaka ( beerus ) vs goku thing. Over all base goku in both manga and anime have shown to be fearsome and to be more powerful than before but ssg still is above there feats. I put ssg at best 100* ssg and blue is 10* that,black is stronger than ssj3 initially ( trunks even states this ) and he gets even stronger after incorporating goku's power so now he is 50* weaker than ssr witch makes his base way above 1,2,and 3 but isnt above ssb but ssr is

[TheMikado]

The problem with that is that it requires so much head canon, from every different viewer that at times we aren't even watching the same story unfold. Literally we could be watching the same scene and I see Goku as going all out while you see him as holding back. That's not well written or consistent material.

[DBZ Macky]

The problem with that is that it requires so much head canon, from every different viewer that at times we aren't even watching the same story unfold. Literally we could be watching the same scene and I see Goku as going all out while you see him as holding back. That's not well written or consistent material.

Exactly. I hope we can form a general consensus soon, at least around these parts.
I personally go with the theory that Goku and Black are perennially holding back just for the fun of it and Zamasu is just SSJ2 tier. It makes sense with Goku's characterization in Super, and since Black is technically the same as him, he does the same to enjoy a good fight.

EDIT: Inb4 someone says that the fight was to the death and there was no reason for them to hold back, this is my headcanon; Black was holding back but could power up in an instant. Goku knew this and fought at the same level, for he knew if he powered up, then Black would retaliate with equal force and that would be dangerous for not just Trunks and the injured Vegeta, but also for the very planet they were defending.

By the way, is it confirmed that Black gets powered up from receiving damage? When he becomes Super Saiyan Rose, Goku asks him if that was what he meant when he said that pain will make him stronger.
...Or is he just a masochist?

[Hugo Boss]

By the way, is it confirmed that Black gets powered up from receiving damage? When he becomes Super Saiyan Rose, Goku asks him if that was what he meant when he said that pain will make him stronger.
...Or is he just a masochist?

I think it might have to do with his body. Everytime someone gives Black a barrage of blows it's noticed he gets stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan

No, it's his version of SSB, since Black is god level. SSB is SSG's version of SS.

Base Black is SS3 level. SSR Black is SSB level, but he doesn't have god ki.

[buutenks]

Based off of BOG, Beerus being thousands of times stronger than ssg makes little sense. Especially considering the 10% line. Everything that was shown beyong ROF doesnt make sense with the BOG scaling. So perhaps Beerus' power simply got boosted to huge heigths.

Based off what was shown its like this:

Vados>Whis>Beerus>Champa>kkx10 ssj blue(?)>Black Rose/Hit>ssj blue/Golden Freeza>ssj3 Goku>FP ssj2 Trunks>ssj2 Goku=ssj2 Vegeta>Zamasu>ssj1 Trunks>ssj1 Goku/Vegeta=Super Saiyan God>/= Magetta>ssj1 Cabba>FF Frost>Base Goku/Vegeta/Cabba/Piccolo/Gohan>/= Assault form Frost/FF Freeza>ssj3 Gotenks>First Form Frost>First form Freeza>ssj Gohan>Tagoma>base Gohan(pre training)>Piccolo(pre-training).

Based off what was said:

Black Rose/Hit>ssj blue/Golden Freeza>base Goku/Vegeta>ssg>FF Freeza>>>>>>>>>Rageta>>>>>>base Black/ssj3 Goku/ssj3 Gotenks>fpssj2 Trunks>ssj2 Goku/Vegeta>ssj1 Goku/Vegeta>everyone else from u6 except Hit.

Second one doesnt make much sense. But going by statements that is how it is.

Krillin in rof arc says Goku's base power was greater than when he fought Beerus, once Goku goes ssj in u6 arc, no one mentions it being Op or something like that.

i guess 2 base theory? lol

If in ep 59, Goku fights Zamasu in base form and kicks his butt, then hmm will be interesting.

[HeroR]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan

No, it's his version of SSB, since Black is god level. SSB is SSG's version of SS.

Base Black is SS3 level. SSR Black is SSB level, but he doesn't have god ki.

Black got stronger after fighting Goku. He's above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and was approaching Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base, given that none of Vegeta's attacks did any damaged to him, he speed blitz Vegeta, and landed a solid kick.

Also, he may have God ki as a Super Saiyan Rose given that the track that played when he transformed is called Birth of a God, and it only played when Goku became a Super Saiyan God and when Super Shenron was awakening.