Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Anyone know if Trunks can sense SSR?

[Khin]

Anyone know if Trunks can sense SSR?

Trunks didn't comment anything about Black's Rosé form except for saying he changed his color.

[Bullza]

Krillin in rof arc says Goku's base power was greater than when he fought Beerus

He does?

[Khin]

We'll continue this here since we're clearly being off-topic in the Official Announcement Thread.

Ah, I forget that quote. Hm, good point. Perhaps they're more even than I thought. Strange, though. Trunks struggled so hard during Cell Saga and had not much to train vs or with since returning to future and achieves SSJ2 power rivaling Goku and surpassing Vegeta. Oh well, guess the creators like him a lot. Can't blame them, he's cool. Just it's yet another DBS nonsensical item. Chalk it up! haha

Trunks has been shown to be someone that can get insanely stronger on his own. When he trained with Future Gohan, he was weaker than him with Super Saiyan compared to Gohan's Base, but he surpassed him in just around 3 years. Probably both scenarios are just plot reasons, but an in-universe explanation is that it is due to Trunks training hard and him getting rapidly stronger due to his many fights with Black.

He treated Trunks as annoyance. He could have killed him at any time, and even mused as much when Trunks tried to fight him for killing Mai, saying you have no chance. And Super Saiyan 2 Trunks didn't even get a hit in when he first met Black.

When Trunks said Black was stronger in the future, it's because Black was only matching Super Saiyan 2 Goku when he's at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

We only saw Black fighting Trunks twice, both cases Trunks managed to escape, so it's possible that's been the case for the other unseen fights. Of course Trunks has no chance, not only that it's probably their second encounter (Meaning Trunks was weak at that time), but Black is also much stronger than Trunks, but Black still considers Trunks as someone that can oppose him, as he himself stated.

That's the point, Black is only stronger in the future because holding back against Goku, in your previous post you made it sound like Black is stronger in the present. Given how Black is so eager to learn more about Goku and seems to be very interested in him, it would be no surprise that he'd enjoy fighting Goku than Trunks.

[dbgtFO]

Krillin in rof arc says Goku's base power was greater than when he fought Beerus

He does?

Nope, that's a mistranslation. Krillin just said he was frightened unlike when Goku fought Beerus. Gohan was the one who mentioned something about Goku's power and he just said a standard "oh they are so powerful" kind of comment.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Black got stronger after fighting Goku. He's above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and was approaching Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base, given that none of Vegeta's attacks did any damaged to him, he speed blitz Vegeta, and landed a solid kick.

Black displayed power that rivaled SS2 Goku, but Trunks told them that Black's power in the future was probably a little greater than SS3 Goku's. After his fight with Goku, Black became stronger, and he became even stronger through his fight with SSB Vegeta. However, Vegeta was holding back against Black since he did better against SSB Black, which surprised Black, and Vegeta expected Black to be at around SS3 Goku's level. So, even though Black got stronger than he was before, he doesn't have to be many times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Also, he may have God ki as a Super Saiyan Rose given that the track that played when he transformed is called Birth of a God, and it only played when Goku became a Super Saiyan God and when Super Shenron was awakening.

Trunks & Goku speculated that Black may be a god, and specifically Zamasu, from the way he talked about the mortals, meaning that base Black doesn't have god ki. If SSR had given him god ki, wouldn't they have mention it instead of just been surprised from the new color, since it would provide even further evidence that Black is Zamasu, a god. Plus, the form was described as Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, with no mention of having the power of a god.

[HeroR]

Black got stronger after fighting Goku. He's above Super Saiyan 3 Goku and was approaching Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base, given that none of Vegeta's attacks did any damaged to him, he speed blitz Vegeta, and landed a solid kick.

Black displayed power that rivaled SS2 Goku, but Trunks told them that Black's power in the future was probably a little greater than SS3 Goku's. After his fight with Goku, Black became stronger, and he became even stronger through his fight with SSB Vegeta. However, Vegeta was holding back against Black since he did better against SSB Black, which surprised Black, and Vegeta expected Black to be at around SS3 Goku's level. So, even though Black got stronger than he was before, he doesn't have to be many times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Also, he may have God ki as a Super Saiyan Rose given that the track that played when he transformed is called Birth of a God, and it only played when Goku became a Super Saiyan God and when Super Shenron was awakening.

Trunks & Goku speculated that Black may be a god, and specifically Zamasu, from the way he talked about the mortals, meaning that base Black doesn't have god ki. If SSR had given him god ki, wouldn't they have mention it instead of just been surprised from the new color, since it would provide even further evidence that Black is Zamasu, a god. Plus, the form was described as Black's version of regular Super Saiyan, with no mention of having the power of a god.

When Trunks said stronger in the future, he was referring how Black was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Goku actually overpowered him at several points. Vegeta even notes that Black is much stronger.

We don't know how much Vegeta was supposedly holding back. Only that Vegeta went all in and didn't even hurt Black.

And given how much Black sandbags we don't know his overall strength. This is the same person after all who let Super Saiyan Trunks hit him in the stomach and held back against Goku when they first fought.

He didn't have God ki in his base, but everything suggests that Super Saiyan Rose is a god transformation since it has a similar aura as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Birth of a God played when it only played for Super Saiyan God Goku and Super Shenron summoning. Black even named it based on Super Saiyan Blue, not calling it an alternative of Super Saiyan.

Why would Black having a God form surprise Goku and Vegeta if they already suspected that Black is a god. Also, only Trunks was surprised by the color.

[Noah]

Base Black is SS3 level. SSR Black is SSB level, but he doesn't have god ki.

Was this even confirmed?

[Chiki]

So, we got confirmation that Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of regular Super Saiyan

No, it's his version of SSB, since Black is god level. SSB is SSG's version of SS.

Base Black is SS3 level. SSR Black is SSB level, but he doesn't have god ki.

Base Black is definitely well above SS3 level (well.. if the two base theory is false then SS3 is stronger than SSG anyway). He got a massive power boost from fighting Goku, as Vegeta himself stated.

Black blitzing and then kicking a suppressed SSB Vegeta is damn impressive.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When Trunks said stronger in the future, he was referring how Black was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Goku actually overpowered him at several points. Vegeta even notes that Black is much stronger.

We don't know how much Vegeta was supposedly holding back. Only that Vegeta went all in and didn't even hurt Black.

And given how much Black sandbags we don't know his overall strength. This is the same person after all who let Super Saiyan Trunks hit him in the stomach and held back against Goku when they first fought.

After Trunks fought SS3 Goku, Trunks said that Black was probably stronger than that. Then SS2 Goku fought Black, and Trunks said that in the future, Black was a little stronger. since there is a x4 difference between SS2 & SS3 Goku, Black can't be much stronger than SS3 Goku. Then in the future, we see that Black got a power-up from his fight with Goku, and then he gets an even greater power-up after getting beaten up by SSB Vegeta. However, Vegeta was supressed, but we don't know how much. I just don't see any reason to assume that Black's power multiplied after his fights with Goku & Vegeta, I think his power increased, but we are not given any reason to assume that it went over x2, and it doesn't have to even get close to x2 for his increase in power to be big.

Of course, maybe Black's power went over x10 SS3 Goku level, and maybe SSR doesn't give the same x50 boost due to it be an altered SS form, since all these are just my opinions. I just don't see any reason to assume these things, and make the gap between SSG & SSB unnecessarily bigger.

He didn't have God ki in his base, but everything suggests that Super Saiyan Rose is a god transformation since it has a similar aura as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Birth of a God played when it only played for Super Saiyan God Goku and Super Shenron summoning. Black even named it based on Super Saiyan Blue, not calling it an alternative of Super Saiyan.

Why would Black having a God form surprise Goku and Vegeta if they already suspected that Black is a god. Also, only Trunks was surprised by the color.

The aura is just an aura, it doesn't signify who is a god & who isn't. The soundtrack doesn't mean anything, really. And the name was chosen by the fact that SSR was a Super Saiyan form with a different color, like SSB. If he had god ki, everyone would have gone "Look! Now he has god ki in this form! This confirms our suspicions that Black really is a god, and maybe he really is Zamasu!", because they were looking for evidence to find out who Black is, and if he is Zamasu.

Base Black is SS3 level. SSR Black is SSB level, but he doesn't have god ki.

Was this even confirmed?

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

Black blitzing and then kicking a suppressed SSB Vegeta is damn impressive.

Well, not that much if Vegeta is using 10% of his power for example.

[ekrolo2]

Why wouldn't Trunks be able to sense Blacks ki? Rose is his version of Super Saiyan, not SSBlue.

[TheMikado]

Why wouldn't Trunks be able to sense Blacks ki? Rose is his version of Super Saiyan, not SSBlue.

I asked this because there was a question if SSR used God Ki. An easy way to tell would be if Trunks couldn't sense him.

[Bullza]

How can Super Saiyan Rose just be Blacks Super Saiyan form if he's cloaked in the Ki of Gods?

[HeroR]

How can Super Saiyan Rose just be Blacks Super Saiyan form if he's cloaked in the Ki of Gods?

To be fair, it was never confirmed it had god ki.

However, everything indicates that it is a version of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan given that the song that played is called Birth of a God and it only played twice before, when Goku went Super Saiyan God and Super Shenron's summoning. Black even called the form a realm that no mortal can reached and the aura matches more Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan. Also, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with god energy and Black calls all the Super Saiyan forms just Super Saiyan, even Super Saiyan 2.

[TheMikado]

Part of the problem is we don't even know how strong Black is supposed to be right now, let alone SSR.

What Goku body is Black using anyway???
Base Goku before BOG would need to be at least x400 stronger just to get to current base Goku level and then if he's stronger than SSJ3x 400x stronger than that???

So current Black, non SSR, if using an old Goku body is now 160,000x stronger??? And that's before going SSR.

[Bullza]

When Zamasu saw SSJB Goku on TV he said he was cloaked in the Ki of Gods and SSJB Black's aura looks the exact same except it's different colour.

He said he'd made Goku's power his own aswell.

[TheMikado]

I don't see how that's evidence that it's SSB version and not SSJ.

[HeroR]

When Za!Asus aw SSJB Goku on TV he said he was cloaked in the Ki of Gods and SSJB Black's aura looks the exact same except it's different colour.

He said he'd made Goku's power his own aswell.

As I said, it was never officially confirmed that Super Saiyan Rose has god ki. It is just heavily implied.

[Bullza]

I just find it hard to believe it's his Super Saiyan when it looks far more like Super Saiyan Blue. They just recently made a point of SSJB Goku being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods which made sense because that's what SSJG had and then Black has the same exact thing going on with him which again makes sense because he's apparently made Goku's power his own, something he said after he was aware that Goku could become a God....and now supposedly its not that all along?

Trunks even said when Black saw the form he wasn't the least bit surprised which seemed to imply later was because he was capable of doing the same thing.

[Nejishiki]

I think the phrasing is picked apart too much. A version of Super Saiyan can refer to Super Saiyan Blue. It's the reference Goku Black used as shown when he transforms. The traits of Super Saiyan Blue are present. It's his version of the transformation so it doesn't need to adhere to the "rules" of previous renditions. I think the intent is clear enough. Yes, it wasn't specific, but the visual and literary context work together.