Concerning Freeza's scouter breaking..

[Horgus]

Now, I absolutely hate power levels. Let me state that right off, I think that too much importance is placed on them (by fans especially) and especially so after Frieza gets chopped into a fine puree by Trunks.

But - let me see if I understand the situation correctly.

Vegeta fights Recoome, gets his face rearranged, strength at 30,000 (claimed by Jeice)

Vegeta obtains a senzuu, becomes much stronger. My question is thusly:

How could Vegeta have become strong enough to break Freeza's scouter? If his is the same model as the ones employed by the Ginyu then they would be able to withstand at least 180,000.

Is this indirectly suggesting that Vegeta surpasses that in the short skirmish that ultimately causes Freeza to transform?

[Adamant]

Yeah, Vegeta and Freeza are at roughly the same level at the time; Both Vegeta and Kuririn believed that even after Freeza's power increase caused by his transformation, the three of them would be able to handle him. Since Freeza was stated to be at power level 500000, and both Kuririn and Gohan were absolutely nowhere near Vegeta's level. So yeah, Vegeta apparantly got more than 10 times stronger between those two fights.

[Maphisto86]

Yeah it seems like a stretch but saiyans apparentley get MUCH stronger if they survived a brutal beating. And looking at what Recoome did to Vegeta... that was brutal...

[Tyro]

Since Freeza was stated to be at power level 500000

530,000.

How could Vegeta have become strong enough to break Freeza's scouter? If his is the same model as the ones employed by the Ginyu then they would be able to withstand at least 180,000.

Vegeta seems to make an attempt to say that it seems before reaching the Super Saiya-jin level, the auto evolving mechanisms, or "zenkais", a Saiya-jin receives grow larger.

Vegeta: "It's true you know...I've surpassed the limits of the Saiya-jin race...And I'm still getting stronger. And I'm just beginning to catch on myself that this is more than an ordinary increase. In other words... ...I'm getting closer and closer... ...to becoming a Super Saiya-jin!"

[Casual Matt]

I was always under the impression that the scouters broke if a Battle Power went up too quickly. The surge of energy / data / whatever broke it.

[Tyro]

Ginyu's went up from around 85,000 to 180,000, and it didn't break.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Isn't there different models with scouters? Maybe the older ones just break easier with high powers. As for Vegeta's power boosts, it was pretty ridiculous in the Freeza Arc. I mean come on, the power jump from his fight with Reccome making him ten times stronger?! FTR, I love me some power level discussions.
-Rick

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I was always under the impression that the scouters broke if a Battle Power went up too quickly. The surge of energy / data / whatever broke it.

That's honestly why I believe Freeza's scouter broke. I know Vegeta gained a great deal of power after his battle with Recoom and Zarbon, but to think that he could have had a power level close to 530,000 is kinda odd. It would simply take a lot more then a Pile Driver to increase his power by that much.

[MajinVejitaXV]

One thing...

After their grasping of hands, wasn't Vegeta winded whereas Freeza was...well, not? Anyone ever think Freeza was just fucking with Vegeta, since he seems to like doing that? Honestly, I don't think Freeza would have transformed until Piccolo showed had Vegeta not taunted him into doing so.

As for the scouter...eh, dramatic effect ;p

-Corey

[omegacwa]

I was always under the impression that the scouters broke if a Battle Power went up too quickly. The surge of energy / data / whatever broke it.

That's honestly why I believe Freeza's scouter broke. I know Vegeta gained a great deal of power after his battle with Recoom and Zarbon, but to think that he could have had a power level close to 530,000 is kinda odd. It would simply take a lot more then a Pile Driver to increase his power by that much.

I don't think it is any stranger than Goku going from 180,000 to being able to go toe to toe with Final Form Freeza, I think that might be the biggest jump in DBZ history.

[Rocketman]

I don't think it is any stranger than Goku going from 180,000 to being able to go toe to toe with Final Form Freeza, I think that might be the biggest jump in DBZ history.

90,000. 180,000 was with the Kaioken x2.

[Tyro]

I don't think it is any stranger than Goku going from 180,000 to being able to go toe to toe with Final Form Freeza, I think that might be the biggest jump in DBZ history.

Actually, he's (Goku) going from "around 85,000" to being toe to toe with Freeza. The 180,000 power level was given when Goku used a prolonged Kaio-ken demonstration to Captain Ginyu, to scare him away rather than have to fight him and waste time.

Edit: Beaten to it. Took to long to post. But while I'm at it...

90,000. 180,000 was with the Kaioken x2.

Something was pointed out to me by a friend some time ago. Ginyu estimated Goku's actual power to be around 85,000. I always assumed it simply was 90,000 because of the Kaio-ken multiplying a person's power by two. What my friend pointed out to me was that the very first power level stated by Ginyu after Goku's power started increasing by Kaio-ken demonstration was 90,000.

This is odd because Goku's power had already began increasing, so there's no way Ginyu scouter, which was just now being used on Goku, could read 90,000 when that supposed power level should have already been passed up.

But if you look at it from a mathematical standpoint it's also incorrect because the Kaio-ken multiplies one's power to be double what it originally was. This is something quite baffling to me. I believe Goku's power now to be 85,000, but that would knock the Kaio-ken power level down to 170,000 instead of 180,000.

This would be easier to explain if you have the manga. It's on Dragonball Z, Volume 8, page 121.

[Duo]

I just wrote that off as Goku taking a second or two to bring out his full normal Ki before tapping the Kaio-ken, though he already spoke the words. After all, the Freeza fight teaches us that you don't need to speak the name in order to use it.

[caejones]

I'm officially guessing...
If Goku's power went up to like... 300,000 or something after his time in the tank, a Kaioken of like x10 would have brought him up to like, Final-form-but-not-necessarily-full-power Freeza, wouldn't it?
That basically means that Goku's power would have gone up by like 300-400%, but eh... that doesn't seem to be as big a jump as Vegeta 24000 to the 500,000 range... but eh, everything that Freeza does when fighting Vegeta can be interpreted a variety of ways?

[Rocketman]

Maybe Vegeta was closer. He was of royal blood, after all, so he may've been much closer to going Super (thus getting bigger zenkais) than Goku was, he just didn't get angry enough.

[Phenomenol]

One thing...

After their grasping of hands, wasn't Vegeta winded whereas Freeza was...well, not? Anyone ever think Freeza was just fucking with Vegeta, since he seems to like doing that? Honestly, I don't think Freeza would have transformed until Piccolo showed had Vegeta not taunted him into doing so.

As for the scouter...eh, dramatic effect ;p

-Corey

Freeza's battle power was 530,000 when he attacked Vegeta. Vegeta was at the same level or stronger than Freeza's 530,00. Freeza was not playing with Vegeta at all in that form.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Freeza's battle power was 530,000 when he attacked Vegeta. Vegeta was at the same level or stronger than Freeza's 530,00. Freeza was not playing with Vegeta at all in that form.

Source please.

-Corey

[Swift]

Freeza's battle power was 530,000 when he attacked Vegeta. Vegeta was at the same level or stronger than Freeza's 530,00. Freeza was not playing with Vegeta at all in that form.

Keep in mind that while Vegeta was gasping for breath after their struggle, Freeza acted as if nothing happened. I think that indicates that Freeza still had the upper-hand.


As for the scouter breaking, it could have either been because of the sheer amount of power, the speed at which it was rising, or both. But keep in mind that Vegeta must have been far above 180,000 to even have a chance against Freeza at 530,000, whether or not he matched Freeza's power exactly. (That's a rather large Zenkai from over 30,000... But there you have it.)

Or we can all just agree it was for dramatic effect to show how powerful Vegeta had become, and that Toriyama probably didn't think about it so deeply.

[Phenomenol]

Source please.

-Corey

Didn't you see Vegeta stalemate a powered up Freeza charging at him? That is proof enough.

Keep in mind that while Vegeta was gasping for breath after their struggle, Freeza acted as if nothing happened. I think that indicates that Freeza still had the upper-hand.

Yes, Freeza had the upper-hand because he could transform and gain more power. Vegeta explains that some aliens hold back their true form to save energy. This is why Freeza wasn't winded like Vegeta. In the 530,000 battle power state, Freeza couldn't defeat Vegeta.

[Swift]

Yes, Freeza had the upper-hand because he could transform and gain more power. Vegeta explains that some aliens hold back their true form to save energy. This is why Freeza wasn't winded like Vegeta. In the 530,000 battle power state Freeza couldn't defeat Vegeta.

Pure speculation. Vegeta does not state that Freeza uses transformations to "save energy". Even if he did, there's no reason to believe this stored energy would affect him before he transformed. Freeza simply states that he uses them because his true power is so great even he cannot fully control it all the time.

Nothing was stated that had to do with storing energy to prevent fatigue before he has even transformed. I don't see anything that indicates the energy from his transformations has any effect on him until he actually transforms.