Is Zamasu (and Black) the most depraved villain yet?

[Chiki]

They've already killed countless humans in countless planets, and clearly enjoy killing people and get a major kick out of it. They've probably killed far, far, far more people than all of the villains in DB combined have, including guys like Buu and Frieza, since they're on a human extermination spree in the 12 universes (the manga goes into detail about it more). I guess Zeno has probably killed more than he has though. Lol

What I find most depraved, though, is how Zamasu talks about gods being better than mortals and everything, and seems to have the utmost respect for the gods.. yet he casually kills all the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin in the manga. So it's not just a human extermination spree. It's really weird. Does he just want the 12 universes to have no one but him and Black or something? How is that a beautiful or interesting world?

One counterargument I keep hearing is "oh, Zamasu and Black are doing it because they think it's right, so it's better than them doing it knowing it's evil!" But this is a pretty bad argument. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating Jews, does that make him any more morally forgivable? Absolutely not. The most depraved people can have a really sick sense of right and wrong, just like Hitler and Zamasu and Black.

Thoughts?

[TheMikado]

Broly. Clinically insane.

[ChronoTwigger]

Well, if you think of, they're also the most "human" ones. They have human faults, vices and quirks.
When evil is shaped in human form, it take the depravation appearance.

That's not only in the number of victims. It's the motivation.
So far, all villains were impersonal, they acted like a natural disaster. Only Frieza can compete, and that's why is the most beloved villain so far (at least, it worked good as villain).
Having a motivation make this two more scary. Also, barely we've seen the effect of evilness on common people like we've seen in this arc.
So, yes, they are the most depraved so far.

[Barunks]

Yeah, the fact that they're literally out to commit genocide as opposed to just killing random people or conquering worlds puts them on a whole different level in terms of what kind of threat they pose. That's why I'm seriously worried about Mai and the others when normally I wouldn't care as much.

[Boo Machine]

It is kinda funny that Zeno probably has the biggest body count, yet when someone like me sees him I can only focus on how cute he is.

But yeah, Zamasu and Black are very depraved. The fact that they think their actions are justifiable for the greater good of the universe and even take joy out of carrying out said actions makes them a bit scary. Zamasu must have a pretty big ego to to think he is above everything else. Especially since he uses his intelligence to do the same actions he hates mortals for. Killing people. And him and Black are convinced it's a beautiful thing. Sick, sick puppies those two.

This makes them feel more like people to me. Not good people. Not by a long shot, but still. So it will make it all the more satisfying when the moment comes when they finally get backed into a corner. It's been a good while since I've wanted a dragonball Villain to be given a solid good hit. The hit that makes them think that, maybe their plan wasn't such a good idea, if only for a split second.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

They've already killed countless humans in countless planets, and clearly enjoy killing people and get a major kick out of it. They've probably killed far, far, far more people than all of the villains in DB combined have, including guys like Buu and Frieza, since they're on a human extermination spree in the 12 universes (the manga goes into detail about it more). I guess Zeno has probably killed more than he has though. Lol

What I find most depraved, though, is how Zamasu talks about gods being better than mortals and everything, and seems to have the utmost respect for the gods.. yet he casually kills all the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin in the manga. So it's not just a human extermination spree. It's really weird. Does he just want the 12 universes to have no one but him and Black or something? How is that a beautiful or interesting world?

One counterargument I keep hearing is "oh, Zamasu and Black are doing it because they think it's right, so it's better than them doing it knowing it's evil!" But this is a pretty bad argument. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating Jews, does that make him any more morally forgivable? Absolutely not. The most depraved people can have a really sick sense of right and wrong, just like Hitler and Zamasu and Black.

Thoughts?

Zamasu and Black do what they do to create what they believe to be a perfect world. I'd say that Freeza, who's cruelty knew no bounds, who murdered not for "justice", but on a whim. Freeza is much more depraved.

I'd actually say that Frost from the anime is actually a tad worse, though, since he would do things similar to Freeza by proxies, then use deception to make himself look like a hero.

[HeroR]

They've already killed countless humans in countless planets, and clearly enjoy killing people and get a major kick out of it. They've probably killed far, far, far more people than all of the villains in DB combined have, including guys like Buu and Frieza, since they're on a human extermination spree in the 12 universes (the manga goes into detail about it more). I guess Zeno has probably killed more than he has though. Lol

What I find most depraved, though, is how Zamasu talks about gods being better than mortals and everything, and seems to have the utmost respect for the gods.. yet he casually kills all the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin in the manga. So it's not just a human extermination spree. It's really weird. Does he just want the 12 universes to have no one but him and Black or something? How is that a beautiful or interesting world?

One counterargument I keep hearing is "oh, Zamasu and Black are doing it because they think it's right, so it's better than them doing it knowing it's evil!" But this is a pretty bad argument. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating Jews, does that make him any more morally forgivable? Absolutely not. The most depraved people can have a really sick sense of right and wrong, just like Hitler and Zamasu and Black.

Thoughts?

Here's some advice, no one takes any argument seriously the moment you invoke Hitler or Nazism, especially when talking about a cartoon. It's called Godwin's Law.

On the subject, no I wouldn't call them the most depraved because they are at least villains with a cause they see as righteous, versus villains who do evil things, just to be evil. It is like I see the League of Shadows, a group of assassin and murderers from Batman, who caused the fall of countless civilizations in the name of justice as more good or at least sympathetic, compared to card carrying sociopaths like the Joker, who maybe a mass-murderer, but have as far smaller body count compared to the League of Shadows. In my opinion, Black and Zamasu only seem more depraved since they're the most human villains we had in the series, while the others were so over the top in their evil we could disconnect them, and just call them natural disasters as ChronoTwigger puts it.

If we're going by body count, we don't know how many people Black and Zamasu actually killed, especially since the anime and manga are quite different at this point. We can only assumed. With Buu, the Supreme Kai more or less said Buu wiped out entire galaxies, and we know Vegeta wiped out planets since the age of five for fun and profit.

[fadeddreams5]

Well, I wouldn't use Hitler as an example. There's a difference between having a god complex and actually being a god. Zamasu is the latter, and his people create the planets and galaxies humans reside in. After his people create, he watches humans destroy. He simply wants a universe devoid of that senseless violence against what he deems beautiful, which are the gods' other creations.

I don't know if I'd consider this depraved, as he's on a different playing field to other living beings. However, I would consider him misguided in that he lumps all humans into one category based on his observations and selective experiences with them.

If Vegeta, someone who was truly depraved by every sense of the word, managed to have a change of heart, Zamasu definitely can too.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Well, I wouldn't use Hitler as an example. There's a difference between having a god complex and actually being a god. Zamasu is the latter, and his people create the planets and galaxies humans reside in. After his people create, he watches humans destroy. He simply wants a universe devoid of that senseless violence against what he deems beautiful, which are the gods' other creations.

I don't know if I'd consider this depraved, as he's on a different playing field to other living beings. However, I would consider him misguided in that he lumps all humans into one category based on his observations and selective experiences with them.

If Vegeta, someone who was truly depraved by every sense of the word, managed to have a change of heart, Zamasu definitely can too.

[spoiler]Maybe in the show, but as of the latest manga chapter, it's implied that Black is responsible for the murder of the Kaioshin (except the U6 Kaioshin, who was killed by Dubura and Babidi) as well. So they not only want to stop the chaotic humans, but the creators in each universe.

Of course, this could be a "necessary sacrifice" for them, since they can't execute their plan with the Hakaishin around. Of course the only way to get rid of them is to kill the Kaioshin.[/spoiler]

[ShadowBardock89]

No, we've had worse in the past.
Cell (especially in his first form) took great pleasure in stalking down his prey and giving them a sense of hopelessness before absorbing them.
Freeza, well, is certainly a depraved creature moreso than Zamasu. Look how he tortured his victims before giving them an indignant death.

Still, we have not reached Joffrey Baratheon, let alone, Ramsey Bolton levels of depravity, yet.

[Chiki]

They've already killed countless humans in countless planets, and clearly enjoy killing people and get a major kick out of it. They've probably killed far, far, far more people than all of the villains in DB combined have, including guys like Buu and Frieza, since they're on a human extermination spree in the 12 universes (the manga goes into detail about it more). I guess Zeno has probably killed more than he has though. Lol

What I find most depraved, though, is how Zamasu talks about gods being better than mortals and everything, and seems to have the utmost respect for the gods.. yet he casually kills all the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin in the manga. So it's not just a human extermination spree. It's really weird. Does he just want the 12 universes to have no one but him and Black or something? How is that a beautiful or interesting world?

One counterargument I keep hearing is "oh, Zamasu and Black are doing it because they think it's right, so it's better than them doing it knowing it's evil!" But this is a pretty bad argument. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating Jews, does that make him any more morally forgivable? Absolutely not. The most depraved people can have a really sick sense of right and wrong, just like Hitler and Zamasu and Black.

Thoughts?

Here's some advice, no one takes any argument seriously the moment you invoke Hitler or Nazism, especially when talking about a cartoon. It's called Godwin's Law.

On the subject, no I wouldn't call them the most depraved because they are at least villains with a cause they see as righteous, versus villains who do evil things, just to be evil. It is like I see the League of Shadows, a group of assassin and murderers from Batman, who caused the fall of countless civilizations in the name of justice as more good or at least sympathetic, compared to card carrying sociopaths like the Joker, who maybe a mass-murderer, but have as far smaller body count compared to the League of Shadows. In my opinion, Black and Zamasu only seem more depraved since they're the most human villains we had in the series, while the others were so over the top in their evil we could disconnect them, and just call them natural disasters as ChronoTwigger puts it.

If we're going by body count, we don't know how many people Black and Zamasu actually killed, especially since the anime and manga are quite different at this point. We can only assumed. With Buu, the Supreme Kai more or less said Buu wiped out entire galaxies, and we know Vegeta wiped out planets since the age of five for fun and profit.

Good. The only people who take Godwin's Law seriously are children and people who don't think rationally. I'd rather not discuss anything with people like that to begin with lol. In ethics we use examples involving Hitler all the time because he is such a good example of evil. Why don't you go to my philosophy professors and tell them they can't be taken seriously for using Hitler as an example?

===

Let's say there are two people, John and Jack. John kidnaps and rapes and kills a child because he is evil. Jack kidnaps and rapes and kills a child because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Who is more evil?

[VegettoEX]

This is very much steering into inappropriate analogies and directions. Please course-correct. Thank you!

[HeroR]

Good. The only people who take Godwin's Law seriously are children and people who don't think rationally. I'd rather not discuss anything with people like that to begin with lol. In ethics we use examples involving Hitler all the time because he is such a good example of evil. Why don't you go to my philosophy professors and tell them they can't be taken seriously for using Hitler as an example?

===

Let's say there are two people, John and Jack. John kidnaps and rapes and kills a child because he is evil. Jack kidnaps and rapes and kills a child because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Who is more evil?

I took several philosophy courses in college and know several philosophy professors. None of them used Hitler as an example of evil. In fact, they discouraged it since it suggests that Hitler was some kind of special evil among humanity. When they talked about Hitler, they talked about the things that created Hitler and his worldview, not just his acts of evil, and he's often compared to other people who were like minded. In other words, the philosophy courses I took humanized Hitler instead of using him as a catch all for human evil, which is the problem when Hitler and Nazism are invoke, especially online. It simplifies what Hitler and Nazism are.

You also need to give more details about how Jack kidnapping, raping, and killing a child was a good thing in his mind. This example means nothing without context. Was it because he's insane? Was it because he was sacrificing the child to his god? Was it out of revenge?

[VegettoEX]

I don't think you actually read my recommendation above before responding.

This is going into wildly inappropriate territory that approaches a point where it cannot actually be turned back into a relevant Dragon Ball discussion.

The course-correction isn't so much a "recommendation" as it is an administrative mandate. Thank you!

[HeroR]

I don't think you actually read my recommendation above before responding.

This is going into wildly inappropriate territory that approaches a point where it cannot actually be turned back into a relevant Dragon Ball discussion.

The course-correction isn't so much a "recommendation" as it is an administrative mandate. Thank you!

I thought you meant tone in this case, not so much the subject matter, which is why I tried to be as objective as possible.

[Lord Beerus]

I wouldn't say depraved per se. Black and Zamasu certainly have their sadistic streaks, but as evil as they may be they have a motive for their cause. Not saying that justifies their actions in any shape of for, but for me, somebody who is truly deprave, i.e. morally corrupt or wicked, would be guys like Mercenary Tao, Freeza and Cell. Black and Zamasu come across as more like well-intentioned extremists.

[ChronoTwigger]

While, on a second tought...

[Lionel]

I have to agree with the others; depravity in the context that a step-by-step conveyance of their descent into darkness makes it more provocative, but their actions do carry some measure of reasoned intention behind them, even if they're grossly warped and presumptuous. Freeza delighted in the slaughter of millions purely for his own gratification. The "best" you could hope for in terms of mercy under him is indentured servitude as some nondescript canon fodder intended to be sent out to purge planets for his sick intergalactic real estate game. There was no penance or positivity with him. Zamasu and Black are guilty of many atrocities, but I might sooner choose a quick death by them than the torture inflicted by the PTO's operatives or Freeza himself. On the other hand, their end-game objectives mean the utter destruction of life as we know it so I guess they're worse in that respect.

[saiyanvegetable]

Zamasu and black are paper thin characters so it's hard to imagine either of them as depraved., although Black definitely has an ominous vibe to him compared to other villains.

[Yomi]

Zamasu and black are paper thin characters so it's hard to imagine either of them as depraved., although Black definitely has an ominous vibe to him compared to other villains.

If they're paper thin then everyone aside from Frieza and Baby are practically atomically thin.
Depravity is just a deviance, a corruption of their morals. I'd say Zamasu fits the definition of a deviant.
Not sure what Black is yet though.