Concerning Freeza's scouter breaking..

[MajinVejitaXV]

Didn't you see Vegeta stalemate a powered up Freeza charging at him? That is proof enough.

OH, THAT SCENE!

....wait, no, I already explained that. Vegeta panting like a $4 Vietnamiese whore while Freeza just stands there = Freeza is playing with Vegeta. Yes, he could transform and murder Vegeta violently (as he does), but even in his current form I'm willing to bet he could beat Vegeta.

Aside from that, Freeza displays very recognizable frustration when he is "matched," like he did when Piccolo was beating him (despite the fact that he had two more transformations on tap). Does Freeza look frustrated to you after the grasping of hands?

-Corey

[Phenomenol]

Pure speculation. Vegeta does not state that Freeza uses transformations to "save energy". Even if he did, there's no reason to believe this stored energy would affect him before he transformed. Freeza simply states that he uses them because his true power is so great even he cannot fully control it all the time.

Nothing was stated that had to do with storing energy to prevent fatigue before he has even transformed. I don't see anything that indicates the energy from his transformations has any effect on him until he actually transforms.

Volume 25フリーザ超変身！！ Furiiza Chouhenshin!! Freeza's Super Transformation!!

296: フリーザ超変身！！ Furiiza Chouhenshin!! Freeza's Super Transformation!!

Vegeta explains that some aliens hold back their true form to save energy. He was reffering to Freeza in this case, hence the reason why Freeza was not winded is because he has MORE ENERGY that he has not used. Freeza wouldn't be tired if he has not used all of his energy.

OH, THAT SCENE!

....wait, no, I already explained that. Vegeta panting like a $4 Vietnamiese whore while Freeza just stands there = Freeza is playing with Vegeta. Yes, he could transform and murder Vegeta violently (as he does), but even in his current form I'm willing to bet he could beat Vegeta.

Aside from that, Freeza displays very recognizable frustration when he is "matched," like he did when Piccolo was beating him (despite the fact that he had two more transformations on tap). Does Freeza look frustrated to you after the grasping of hands?

Freeza was NOT playing with Vegeta in that form grasping hands, Vegeta stalemated Freeza and Freeza couldn't even overpower Vegeta. Freeza would beat down Vegeta in his other forms but not with the 530,000 batle power.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Freeza was NOT playing with Vegeta in that form grasping hands, Vegeta stalemated Freeza and Freeza couldn't even overpower Vegeta. Freeza would beat down Vegeta in his other forms but not with the 530,000 batle power.

For the last time, no.

You're trying to have it both ways. You're saying Freeza was evenly matched with Vegeta and couldn't beat him...yet Freeza couldn't get tired because he had more power (which somehow you imply he could tap without transforming, despite that making the transformations completely useless). That makes no sense whatsoever.

Face it. Vegeta showed off and grasped hands with Freeza, making a good show of strength but nothing that could kill Freeza. I'm a Vegeta fan and even I can get that.

You...seem to have some sort of obsession with taking everything said in DragonBall literally. Were that the case, Mr. Satan would be the strongest man alive

-Corey

[Swift]

Volume 25フリーザ超変身！！ Furiiza Chouhenshin!! Freeza's Super Transformation!!

296: フリーザ超変身！！ Furiiza Chouhenshin!! Freeza's Super Transformation!!

Vegeta explains that some aliens hold back their true form to save energy. He was reffering to Freeza in this case, hence the reason why Freeza was not winded is because he has MORE ENERGY that he has not used. Freeza wouldn't be tired if he has not used all of his energy.

MajinVegetaXV wrote:

You're right that Vegeta states that some aliens transform, sometimes for camouflage, other times to save energy. But Freeza immediately responds that it's different in his own case, and that the reason he has transformations is because he can't fully control his true power. Thus whatever kind of aliens Vegeta was referring to are not what Freeza is. Unless you're going to argue that Freeza transforms for camouflage too.

Nothing indicates that the energy he gains from transforming has any effect until he transforms.

Personally, I also don't think Freeza was just toying with Vegeta. It did look like he was struggling while he and Vegeta held hands. Besides, he was enraged at the time since he didn't get his wish, so I don't think he'd be holding back. But I still think Freeza is more powerful, because of Vegeta gasping for breath.

[Phenomenol]

For the last time, no.

You're trying to have it both ways. You're saying Freeza was evenly matched with Vegeta and couldn't beat him...yet Freeza couldn't get tired because he had more power (which somehow you imply he could tap without transforming, despite that making the transformations completely useless). That makes no sense whatsoever.

Face it. Vegeta showed off and grasped hands with Freeza, making a good show of strength but nothing that could kill Freeza. I'm a Vegeta fan and even I can get that.

You...seem to have some sort of obsession with taking everything said in DragonBall literally. Were that the case, Mr. Satan would be the strongest man alive

I said that Freeza at his 530,000 battle power form could NOT beat Vegeta, he could only stalemate him (the clash showed their equality). Freeza was NOT winded because he was holding back his "TRUE FORM," in other words his power.

You're right that Vegeta states that some aliens transform, sometimes for camouflage, other times to save energy. But Freeza immediately responds that it's different in his own case, and that the reason he has transformations is because he can't fully control his true power. Thus whatever kind of aliens Vegeta was referring to are not what Freeza is. Unless you're going to argue that Freeza transforms for camouflage too.

Nothing indicates that the energy he gains from transforming has any effect until he transforms. But I still think Freeza is more powerful, because of Vegeta gasping for breath.

Note what's in bold, Freeza has those transformations for him to save energy which is the reason for him GAINING more power with each transformation. Which is left-over energy saved, those transformations helps Freeza control his power.

How can Freeza be more powerful than Vegeta in his 530,000 form when Vegeta just showed you that he stalemated Freeza's might.

[Swift]

Note what's in bold, Freeza has those transformations for him to save energy which is the reason for him GAINING more power with each transformation. Which is left-over energy saved, those transformations helps Freeza control his power.

How can Freeza be more powerful than Vegeta in his 530,000 form when Vegeta just showed you that he stalemated Freeza's might.

Vegeta said that some aliens transform to conserve energy.

Freeza says that's not the case with himself.

How much clearer can it be?

When he transforms, he becomes more powerful. When he reaches his final form, he becomes so powerful he can't fully control it. None of that has anything to do with having more stamina BEFORE he transforms.

He didn't stalemate Vegeta either. He left him winded, and himself ready to go another round at any time. We have no idea how the entire fight would've went because we only saw a few seconds of it.

I've made my point. Do what you want with it. I'm done here. Otherwise this'll just keep going in circles.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I said that Freeza at his 530,000 battle power form could NOT beat Vegeta, he could only stalemate him (the clash showed their equality). Freeza was NOT winded because he was holding back his "TRUE FORM," in other words his power.

You're right. I give up. I see the light. Freeza and Vegeta were equals, but Freeza could not win and was not winded because he was holding back the power (because holding back something obviously increases stamina). Makes perfect sense.

Maybe Vegeta should have tried holding back his power? Seemed to work wonders for Freeza...

You're the king Phenomenol, you're the king.

-Corey

[Phenomenol]

Vegeta said that some aliens transform to conserve energy.

Freeza says that's not the case with himself.

How much clearer can it be?

When he transforms, he becomes more powerful. When he reaches his final form, he becomes so powerful he can't fully control it. None of that has anything to do with having more stamina BEFORE he transforms.

Nope. Freeza says he's different, though, and can't control himself when transformed! He never commented that he does NOT save energy, he is different from other aliens only because he couldn't control himself when he is transformed.

He didn't stalemate Vegeta either. He left him winded, and himself ready to go another round at any time. We have no idea how the entire fight would've went because we only saw a few seconds of it.

What? LOL! Freeza going all out struggling trying to over power Vegeta with BOTH hands at full power in that form is not a stalemate? Who cares if he left Vegeta winded, the only reason why 'Freeza wasn't winded was because of his extra power he has in other transformations.

You're right. I give up. I see the light. Freeza and Vegeta were equals, but Freeza could not win and was not winded because he was holding back the power (because holding back something obviously increases stamina). Makes perfect sense.

Maybe Vegeta should have tried holding back his power? Seemed to work wonders for Freeza...

Vegeta was only as powerful as Freeza's 530,000 form, that is all.

Vegeta did NOT have enough power to hold back, I thought you watched Dragonball.

[LegendarySSJ7]

The auto-evolution evolving mechanism increases, or 'Zenkais' you speak of, whether through Senzus or the rejuvenation tank are not something that reach fruition on a consistent basis. Vegeta went from being nonchalantly beaten severely by Reacoom on a whim to grappling with Freeza in his 1st stage, at full capacity on a semi-tantamount footing, but what's even more is that Goku went from Ginyu's Inferior without usage of the Kaio-ken to being Freeza's, showing his new super state of sorts off (yet still only a fraction of his true roof, lucidly), equal. That kind of increase is stupefyingly exorbitant, but something I and others just flow with the train of thought to be of. It's not exactly a case-sensitive thing, outside of the degree of injury that an which auto-evolution may be triggered. Something as severe as Vegeta literally crawling on his belly in a curtain of blood (such as after his inaugural bout with Goku, or after his beatdown with Zarbon in his transformed state), to be assiduous, would qualify for a severe enough 'degree of injury'.

As for the entire affair of whether Freeza in his 1st stage or Vegeta is stronger? Freeza; his attitude that he wasn't against the ropes but coolly that the prospect of winning wasn't in the immediate moment is enough for me to reflect that he was the stronger of the two, but more that Vegeta was panting wildly after their grapple; hence Freeza's slight shock that Vegeta wasn't such a healthy divide from him in power. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a notable margin ahead of Vegeta, or that it was a full-effort fueled grapple on Freeza's part, as the only time he begins to seem winded is on page 156 of Volume 26 / 10, after Goku and Freeza's playful hand-to-foot combat turnout, the exasperation he had at the fact that Goku was his equal and that he needed to reach his 50% threshold. The rest of it only comes to light after Freeza sustains somewhat abrasive injury after the Genki Dama hooplah and when he reaches 100%, but at that point he was on the train to screwsville and SSj Goku was in rein of the fight to enough of an extent.

As for Freeza and his transformations? They are just that; conserving his chi through suppressions, and not transformations on the sense that he just transforms to wield more power. The fact that he alludes to and states not being able to control said chi many an occasion acts by furthering this notion. He's still holding back, but not transforming in the more rudimentary sense.

Anyway, he (Freeza) obviously can control his chi. Perhaps not sense chi, but control. But this doesn't mean Vegeta was certain of his standings. He was pompous and temerarious enough in his monotonous nature to goad Freeza onto transform. To say he was Freeza's equal or stronger at the timeframe is a bit foolhardy, by my view. Weaker in a window of difference, yet Freeza still gaining an advantage? At the least, without sounding undercut? Perhaps. But stronger? Let alone largely stronger? No.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Vegeta did NOT have enough power to hold back, I thought you watched Dragonball.

I watch DragonBall in English. Vegeta is mondo cool.

-Corey

[Pedro The Hutt]

As to the scouter breaking, dramatic effect yo. ;D As long as it's over nine thousand, the scouter is worth breaking.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Vegeta was only as powerful as Freeza's 530,000 form, that is all.

This is after Krillin attack him right? Vegeta wasn't close to Freeza's strength at all. It is true that Vegeta was able to hold Freeza back but Vegeta was tired from that exchange, Freeza wasn't.

There wasn't much a fight while Freeza was in his first form. In the manga, after that little struggle, Vegeta provokes Freeza to transforming. You could also take into consideration that when Vegeta is saying how they (him, Krillin, and Gohan) can beat Freeza, Freeza says something along the lines of "Sure, like three ants can beat a dinosaur".

You can write that off as Freeza being badass but don't forget that he was wearing a scouter. I think Freeza's confidence didn't come from the power he had with transforming. He didn't know that Vegeta knew he could transform, remember? So his goal was to beat them all in his first form so Freeza was obviously stronger than all three.
(I'm not sure what the intital question was but this should explain that Vegeta was nowhere near Freeza's strength at the time.)
-Rick

[Tyro]

Vegeta was only as powerful as Freeza's 530,000 form, that is all.

This is after Krillin attack him right?

No. This is after Vegeta is healed by one of Goku's senzu beans.

Vegeta after being healed by Dende is stronger than Piccolo (post-fusing with Nail). He was the only one able to actually see Freeza's death beams and he even kicked Gohan out of the way of their path.

[Conan the SSJ]

After Vegeta is healed by Goku's Senzu, would you guys count his flight to Freeza's ship/confrontation with all those elite soldiers/battle with Jeice and Ginyu as another lead-in for a Saiyan power-boost? I mean, maybe if he was fatigued enough from all that, he could've had another increase after he took his nap (outside the ship in the manga, by Goku's rejuvenation tank in the anime, Vegeta and his love for Kakarrot in the anime :p). Maybe I'm just reading too much into the whole power-boost/zenkai theory. >>

[Phenomenol]

I watch DragonBall in English. Vegeta is mondo cool.

-Corey

No wonder, you watched the Dub.

Vegeta wasn't close to Freeza's strength at all. It is true that Vegeta was able to hold Freeza back but Vegeta was tired from that exchange, Freeza wasn't.

There wasn't much a fight while Freeza was in his first form. In the manga, after that little struggle, Vegeta provokes Freeza to transforming. You could also take into consideration that when Vegeta is saying how they (him, Krillin, and Gohan) can beat Freeza, Freeza says something along the lines of "Sure, like three ants can beat a dinosaur".

You can write that off as Freeza being badass but don't forget that he was wearing a scouter. I think Freeza's confidence didn't come from the power he had with transforming. He didn't know that Vegeta knew he could transform, remember? So his goal was to beat them all in his first form so Freeza was obviously stronger than all three.
(I'm not sure what the intital question was but this should explain that Vegeta was nowhere near Freeza's strength at the time.)

This doesn't make any sense at all. Vegeta STALEMATED a full powered up Freeza (in that form) and didn't even budge. Yet you wanna say he was nowhere near Freeza because he was a little winded.

The fact is Freeza couldn't overpower Vegeta or even defeat Vegeta when he was TRYING, period.

[mAcChaos]

If they were equal, then Freeza would've been just as winded, but he wasn't.

[Tyro]

This doesn't make any sense at all. Vegeta STALEMATED a full powered up Freeza (in that form) and didn't even budge. Yet you wanna say he was nowhere near Freeza because he was a little winded.

The fact is Freeza couldn't overpower Vegeta or even defeat Vegeta when he was TRYING, period.

That's the thing. No statements were given about how much Freeza powered up. Sure, he may have seemed at full power, but there is no absolute evidence to prove it.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I watch DragonBall in English. Vegeta is mondo cool.

-Corey

No wonder, you watched the Dub.

"Dub"? What do you mean? DragonBall is an English show that was dubbed into Japanese, right? With Goku having a girly voice and them saying "Kayoken" wrong.

VIVA USA.

-Corey

[Pieter]

Vegeta seems to make an attempt to say that it seems before reaching the Super Saiya-jin level, the auto evolving mechanisms, or "zenkais", a Saiya-jin receives grow larger.

Vegeta: "It's true you know...I've surpassed the limits of the Saiya-jin race...And I'm still getting stronger. And I'm just beginning to catch on myself that this is more than an ordinary increase. In other words... ...I'm getting closer and closer... ...to becoming a Super Saiya-jin!"

This is the best answer I've read so far.

Vegeta was only as powerful as Freeza's 530,000 form, that is all.

This is after Krillin attack him right?

No. This is after Vegeta is healed by one of Goku's senzu beans.

Vegeta after being healed by Dende is stronger than Piccolo (post-fusing with Nail). He was the only one able to actually see Freeza's death beams and he even kicked Gohan out of the way of their path.

And here we know Vegeta's power level is more than a million since Piccolo was close to Frieza's million+.

Freeza was NOT playing with Vegeta in that form grasping hands, Vegeta stalemated Freeza and Freeza couldn't even overpower Vegeta. Freeza would beat down Vegeta in his other forms but not with the 530,000 batle power.

For the last time, no.

You're trying to have it both ways. You're saying Freeza was evenly matched with Vegeta and couldn't beat him...yet Freeza couldn't get tired because he had more power (which somehow you imply he could tap without transforming, despite that making the transformations completely useless). That makes no sense whatsoever.

Face it. Vegeta showed off and grasped hands with Freeza, making a good show of strength but nothing that could kill Freeza. I'm a Vegeta fan and even I can get that.

You...seem to have some sort of obsession with taking everything said in DragonBall literally. Were that the case, Mr. Satan would be the strongest man alive

-Corey

You're speculating about this subject just as much as others do, you don't have proof Frieza was stronger than Vegeta either.

So let's stay with the facts. Freeza is known to have a Power Level of 530,000. Supressing one's energy and thus power level without transforming is an unkown technique to pretty much every Freeza henchmen but Ginyu. This would mean that Freeza was actually fighting using 530,000 of his power, because he's unable to hide this power level. However, before sparring with Vegeta he actually does power-up, even Piccolo notices the power-up from a far-away distance.

I assume the number 530,000 is mentioned earlier in the manga, and thus straight from Toriyama. If that's what he gave first form Freeza wouldn't it seem unlikely that Freeza actually never showcases this strength?

The fact that he was powered up and really angry at Vegeta (and had an even more sour expression than him) says he wasn't just kidding around when he charged at him. To me it seemed pretty obvious that Vegeta was close to Freeza's power. Freeza's face is shocked and amazed when he can't hurt Vegeta. In the manga Vegeta wasn't out of breath. Vegeta tells Freeza he'll have to transform to beat them. Gohan even states Vegeta was right, and all three of them CAN beat Freeza. How more apparent could Toriyama have made this?

[Phenomenol]

That's the thing. No statements were given about how much Freeza powered up. Sure, he may have seemed at full power, but there is no absolute evidence to prove it.

Statements are not needed, Vegeta dares Freeza to show his true form, and Freeza decides to do it after all, and begins powering up. A pissed off Freeza couldn't kill Vegeta in that 530,000 form.

If they were equal, then Freeza would've been just as winded, but he wasn't.

LOL!, Goku was winded in his first bout against Vegeta and he still was kicking his @#$.