Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

For me it is really simple:

- all scenes were either base goku or ss goku or characters around this level are stated or assumed to be any close to ssg are just gag scenes for pure entertainment. Expections are bog ss and base goku who was just hanging on ssg for longer time due to ss and then absorb all of it in base and use it for brief second to save himself and earth

- Both gotenks fight against base purple vegeta and kaiokenssb were just Toei idea as it was never referenced again. The draft Akira has done was only about Vegeta getting stronger then goku for brief moment and mention this planet where Anime made filler/extra padding scenes. About Kaiokenssb when I saw Zamasu comming in while gowasu was watching goku vs hit through godtube then it was pointed out how ssb make goku so powerfull, skipping kaioken stuff doesn't make sense unless writers wanted us to forget it as one time thing.

- Everything what happened in both manga and anime is Akira's draft/cannon. Everything else is up for discussion, and although I prefer anime I am still using manga to fill up anime and even replace stuff which doesn't make sense, so it is complete ;p

[Khin]

I don't understand the excuse that Copy-Vegeta fighting Gotenks was just a Toei idea, because even Goku and Vegeta's current strength likely comes from Toei as well. It's not like Toriyama specifically stated how strong Goku and Vegeta is currently seeing the major power differences between anime and manga.

And why would the Gotenks fight be referenced again ? It has no reason to, especially since Gotenks was utterly stomped and Goten barely appeared in this arc. They brought up a reason why Kaio-ken would likely not be used again. They only showed Super Saiyan Blue on GodTube because that's all needed, they want to show us that Zamasu witnessed Goku being clad with divine Ki. The writers doesn't need to not show the Kaio-ken on GodTube to make fans think it will no longer be used again, since it was stated in episode 40 and 43 that Goku will likely not use it for a good while.

The manga seems to also have current Goku and Vegeta being way inferior to Beerus, as Goku in the latest chapter said Beerus is way stronger than him.

The latest episode just further reinforced that Base Goku, Future Trunks, and Vegeta are very strong.

[Bullza]

Well originally when Resurrection F came out people were generally fine with Base Goku being as strong as Super Saiyan God. It's practically said in the description for what Super Saiyan Blue is, it was in the Saiyan Beyond God name and it was heavily implied in the manga.

It wasn't until Goku turned into a regular Super Saiyan again and then Piccolo fought Frost that it made people second guess it.

I think he really is just supposed to be that strong in Base form and there's several things that point towards it. I wouldn't say there's anything definitive that suggests otherwise. There will be a few inconsistencies with things because of all the writers involved.

Trunks doesn't have to be that strong in Base but if he's stronger than a Super Saiyan and he's gotta be around as strong if not stronger than Goku or Vegeta in their regular Super Saiyan forms then you'd think they'd be comparable in their base forms.

[Khin]

I think the main reason why the battle between Piccolo and Frost left so many questions is because Toriyama's outline for Super isn't really clear. Toriyama probably didn't do that much in the retellings and that leaves Toei and Toyo to do most of the work. The anime leaves Goku's power post-god similar to the movies and make a confusion later on in the tournament, but the manga got lucky (Or perhaps Toyotarō already knew the plot of the Champa Arc since he didn't have to worry about the RoF retelling and took advantage of the Battle of Gods Arc to clear the confusion later on) by having Goku not absorb the God power.

The only thing that questions Goku and Vegeta strength in Super is the battle between Piccolo and Frost, other than that, Toei made it clear that Goku and Vegeta in their non-god forms are way stronger than the likes of Gotenks.

[HeroR]

I think the main reason why the battle between Piccolo and Frost left so many questions is because Toriyama's outline for Super isn't really clear. Toriyama probably didn't do that much in the retellings and that leaves Toei and Toyo to do most of the work. The anime leaves Goku's power post-god similar to the movies and make a confusion later on in the tournament, but the manga got lucky (Or perhaps Toyotarō already knew the plot of the Champa Arc since he didn't have to worry about the RoF retelling and took advantage of the Battle of Gods Arc to clear the confusion later on) by having Goku not absorb the God power.

The only thing that questions Goku and Vegeta strength in Super is the battle between Piccolo and Frost, other than that, Toei made it clear that Goku and Vegeta in their non-god forms are way stronger than the likes of Gotenks.

Toriyama wrote Resurrection 'F' and the retelling changed no key point from the movie. So, it was always Toriyama's idea that Goku and Vegeta's base form were ungodly strong. It was only the manga that brings forward the idea that Super Saiyan God is a form that Goku can activate again like a regular transformation.

[Lionel]

As for Piccolo though it doesn't make any sense for him to be that strong. Buu was Goku's obvious first choice and then he "supposed" Piccolo. Buu should be stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo was shown to be equal to Base Gohan who was training in an attempt to regain his former powers.

This was all just 3-4 days before the tournament so how could Piccolo have grown that strong? He couldn't spar with Gohan anymore because he was busy and he didn't go into the ROSAT to train with Goku and Vegeta because he said he couldn't keep up. If he were God tier then that would be a very odd thing for him to say considering how fast his power had grown in such a small amount of time and he would have no problems keeping up with Base Goku and Vegeta.

The chronology of the team selection seems to be the only leg Buu has to stand on. I've begun to wonder if Goku was even aware of Piccolo's training with Gohan at the time when he first met with Buu to pitch his request. They spent much of their time simply talking with one another and informing Krillin of what happened while Goten and Trunks arrive only to be shot down as potential candidates. Yes, they followed the Ki signatures of Gohan and Piccolo to locate them, but this was long after they had gotten Buu's consent.

I've wondered something else. Didn't Gohan acknowledge Tagoma as having power equivalent to his stronger iteration -- i.e. Mystic Gohan? He was suppressed at the time of SSJ Gotenks' arrival yet he still got back up from a headbutt attack. If this estimation of Tagoma's power is correct then Gohan would have to be in a position where his Super Saiyan form is enough to suffice in swiftly dispensing with a character who is on-par with his Mystic prime. This would imply Base Gohan is actually stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Buu arc whom we know is more powerful than Good Buu. Piccolo was shown to be on-par with an even stronger Gohan who was in the process of training.

Piccolo making absurd gains is not unheard of. He came back from King Kai's after only six days worth of training and his power was impressive enough to garner considerable praise from Nail. Moreover, the two Saiyans were at various points training using their SSJB states, of course Piccolo couldn't keep up with that because no one could at the time except Hit. Again, why is this so unbelievable yet Future Trunks' miraculous growth in one day after image training and getting pummeled once by SSJB Vegeta accepted? The fact Trunks is even within the same dimension of power as Goku and Vegeta given what we know of his training resources is much more absurd.

[ZombieVito]

I think the main reason why the battle between Piccolo and Frost left so many questions is because Toriyama's outline for Super isn't really clear. Toriyama probably didn't do that much in the retellings and that leaves Toei and Toyo to do most of the work. The anime leaves Goku's power post-god similar to the movies and make a confusion later on in the tournament, but the manga got lucky (Or perhaps Toyotarō already knew the plot of the Champa Arc since he didn't have to worry about the RoF retelling and took advantage of the Battle of Gods Arc to clear the confusion later on) by having Goku not absorb the God power.

The only thing that questions Goku and Vegeta strength in Super is the battle between Piccolo and Frost, other than that, Toei made it clear that Goku and Vegeta in their non-god forms are way stronger than the likes of Gotenks.

And that is explained away by having Piccolo train with an Ultimate(ish) Gohan.

Problem solved.

[Bullza]

Considering Gohan could sense SSJ3 Goku's power from across the Universe then you'd think Goku would be able to sense Piccolo's power if he were fighting at a level that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

Goku and Vegeta went into the ROSAT and they sparred in their base forms for some period of that time. If Piccolo is stronger than that and got that strong in just a few months then how could he not keep up with them? He could have sparred with them in their Base forms just fine. Nobody ever said he'd powered up and they usually point something like that.

If Piccolo is that strong already then why is his special beam canon an attack that's beyond his normal limits? That should just be within his limits.

I just don't think the intention in all this is that Piccolo is now supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God and the resurrected Frieza without them saying anything. I think the problem is that in the outline Toriyama wrote that Piccolo fights Frost, someone much more powerful than him and somehow the writer had to turn that into an episodes worth of a fight whilst also making it entertaining and because the fight didn't last just ten seconds it's making people think he's stronger than he is even though they really/b] went out of their way to show that Piccolo was weaker and he did well because he was smart.

If it was in Toriyama's outline that Krillin fought Magetta and you were to told to make that fight cover one episode...what would you do? How are you going to write out a fight that lasts about 15-20 minutes while being entertaining and in a way that by the end of the episode people aren't going to say that Krillin must be God tier because he wasn't one shotted and he was able to do this and that?

[HeroR]

Considering Gohan could sense SSJ3 Goku's power from across the Universe then you'd think Goku would be able to sense Piccolo's power if he were fighting at a level that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

Goku and Vegeta went into the ROSAT and they sparred in their base forms for some period of that time. If Piccolo is stronger than that and got that strong in just a few months then how could he not keep up with them? He could have sparred with them in their Base forms just fine. Nobody ever said he'd powered up and they usually point something like that.

If Piccolo is that strong already then why is his special beam canon an attack that's beyond his normal limits? That should just be within his limits.

I just don't think the intention in all this is that Piccolo is now supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God and the resurrected Frieza without them saying anything. I think the problem is that in the outline Toriyama wrote that Piccolo fights Frost, someone much more powerful than him and somehow the writer had to turn that into an episodes worth of a fight whilst also making it entertaining and because the fight didn't last just ten seconds it's making people think he's stronger than he is even though they really/b] went out of their way to show that Piccolo was weaker and he did well because he was smart.

If it was in Toriyama's outline that Krillin fought Magetta and you were to told to make that fight cover one episode...what would you do? How are you going to write out a fight that lasts about 15-20 minutes while being entertaining and in a way that by the end of the episode people aren't going to say that Krillin must be God tier because he wasn't one shotted and he was able to do this and that?

The Piccolo vs. Frost was only half an episode. Also, it was obvious in Toriyama's outline that Frost poisons Piccolo, which is how Jaco catches him. If Frost just stomped him, he wouldn't need to poison him.

The most likely explanation is that Frost was weakened after fighting Goku, Piccolo put up a better than expected match thanks to Frost being tired and Piccolo being clever, so Frost poisoned him.

[Lionel]

Considering Gohan could sense SSJ3 Goku's power from across the Universe then you'd think Goku would be able to sense Piccolo's power if he were fighting at a level that surpasses Super Saiyan God.

Goku and Vegeta went into the ROSAT and they sparred in their base forms for some period of that time. If Piccolo is stronger than that and got that strong in just a few months then how could he not keep up with them? He could have sparred with them in their Base forms just fine. Nobody ever said he'd powered up and they usually point something like that.

If Piccolo is that strong already then why is his special beam canon an attack that's beyond his normal limits? That should just be within his limits.

I just don't think the intention in all this is that Piccolo is now supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God and the resurrected Frieza without them saying anything. I think the problem is that in the outline Toriyama wrote that Piccolo fights Frost, someone much more powerful than him and somehow the writer had to turn that into an episodes worth of a fight whilst also making it entertaining and because the fight didn't last just ten seconds it's making people think he's stronger than he is even though they really/b] went out of their way to show that Piccolo was weaker and he did well because he was smart.

If it was in Toriyama's outline that Krillin fought Magetta and you were to told to make that fight cover one episode...what would you do? How are you going to write out a fight that lasts about 15-20 minutes while being entertaining and in a way that by the end of the episode people aren't going to say that Krillin must be God tier because he wasn't one shotted and he was able to do this and that?

Do we know specifically where Beerus' planet is located? According to the Daizenshuu, seemingly, Kaioshin's planet is roughly a tenth the size of the universe; so its expanse would cover a far greater amount of area relative to Beerus' pyramid-esque terrestrial planet. It can be surmised as being further out than Kaioshin's relative to the Earth since both SSJ Gotenks (who became stronger than SSJ3 Goku after training) and Tagoma's power wasn't registered even after having all of his power unleashed by Ginyu whereas SSJ3 Goku was registered from Kaioshin's as you mentioned. Besides, at the time Piccolo was still inferior to Base Gohan since Gohan was apparently deemed the greatest threat of the group prior to him unveiling Super Saiyan to Freeza.

Goku and Vegeta were primarily focused on raising their overall power levels beyond what their SSJB was capable of during the RoF arc. Piccolo was nowhere close to that point despite his gains. My responce to Piccolo's lack of acknowledgement remains what I have already reiterated -- his power ultimately wasn't important at the tournament when in comparison to the majority of Champa's contestants. The only two of the opposing team whom he could possibly defeat at full strength were Botamo and Base Cabba prior to unlocking Super Saiyan. This doesn't equate to him not having improved, though. He had just reached a position similar to Gohan and the humans in the early cyborg arc.

The full extent of Vados' barrier resistance is never made clear. We only know it was able to resist a casual blast from Champa and that Piccolo shattered it with his Special Beam Cannon. Vegeta also damaged it with his blow against Frost after transforming. It was evidently more powerful than what Base Goku could do though as part of his battle with Assault form Frost saw collisions with the barrier and it not suffering any damage as a result.

I doubt the writers or Toriyama really understood the implications of allowing Goku to retain his God powers in Base when they first wrote it in for Battle of Gods. You've created an untenable benchmark where progression of opponents can only happen with them being God tier as well. Piccolo happened to swept up in the fervour when he was chosen to play a minor role as a participant of the U6 tournament arc. Both the anime and manga portray Piccolo in a more favourable light with him holding relatively well against Frost. If the intention were anything else then I doubt the writers would hesitate to write him out like they did for Buu in spite of him receiving considerable promotion alongside the others for the tournament. Intelligence alone doesn't suffice in allowing someone to survive to the extent Piccolo did in combat against Frost. His muscles, reflexive ability and Ki amount needed to be adequate enough in order to follow Frost's attacks. Piccolo actually did better against Frost than Vegeta when fighting Freeza on Namek because he managed to accomplish more than follow Death Beam projectiles -- he registered Frost's physical movements, blocked attacks while occupied with charging an attack, and proceeded to restrain him using an appendage rope.

You see, again, it's funny how Piccolo has to be dissected in an effort to discredit his performance as being the result of a need to gratuitously pan out the episode's length. Where was all this adamancy when Future Trunks was gaining the upperhand against opponents on-par or greater than SSJB Goku? Have you been trying to assert Trunks as inferior to SSJ3 Goku and Base Black in the anime despite what was shown?

[ssbgoku]

I don't understand the excuse that Copy-Vegeta fighting Gotenks was just a Toei idea, because even Goku and Vegeta's current strength likely comes from Toei as well. It's not like Toriyama specifically stated how strong Goku and Vegeta is currently seeing the major power differences between anime and manga.

And why would the Gotenks fight be referenced again ? It has no reason to, especially since Gotenks was utterly stomped and Goten barely appeared in this arc. They brought up a reason why Kaio-ken would likely not be used again. They only showed Super Saiyan Blue on GodTube because that's all needed, they want to show us that Zamasu witnessed Goku being clad with divine Ki. The writers doesn't need to not show the Kaio-ken on GodTube to make fans think it will no longer be used again, since it was stated in episode 40 and 43 that Goku will likely not use it for a good while.

The manga seems to also have current Goku and Vegeta being way inferior to Beerus, as Goku in the latest chapter said Beerus is way stronger than him.

The latest episode just further reinforced that Base Goku, Future Trunks, and Vegeta are very strong.

1) You don't know that and either I don't know it. However Toryiama's drafts would easily specify how strong is current goku and vegeta without going into details of battle. Difference between anime and manga is stuff about absorbing ssg power, which is manga unknown and in anime questionable at the worst.

2) Because it could relevant ?. Also short flashback to it in Trunks arc would point to it having place indeed instead of just random thrown out idea of vegeta being stronger then goku on some planet for brief moment. Also I disagree about kaioken, it clearly is following same pattern as other world kaioken ss goku one-time thing. It seems writers either noticed their fault with it or They try to make us forget it, if it isn't gonna brought up until end of Trunks arc then I am sure it was filler/Toei's idea. Why ? Because even although point was divine ki for Zamasu to be pissed even more, still how powerfull goku would be still trigger to push Zamasu's madness even more and Kaioken would prove that.

3) Of course they are infferior and it makes sense when you don't have goku aborbing ssg and able to use it's power in base or ss forms but rather bring's it back with ssb in shorter time then vegeta who had to power up all his way trough whis's training.

[ekrolo2]

Another thing that makes Goku &Vegeta as strong as SSGod in the manga questionable is the fact Goku praises Trunks' SS2 strength as being a great deal tougher than Gohans from the Cell Games. Trunks Base alone would put him leagues above Gohan, especially since he matches Goku's SS3 power.

Whatever the movies and anime say, Toyotaro is clearly low balling Giku and Vegeta power wise in his version of Super.

[TheMikado]

I feel like I've already given a pretty plausible explanation on why the power levels are so different.

I believe when Super began Toriyama had not actually completed an outline. So Toriyama and Toei agreed to base it off of his movies which Toei adapted while Toriyama was writing new material and outlines. In the process I feel Toriyama decided the power creep would be too large for an ongoing series. The problem is by the time this was figured out they could have already been in the ROF arc and Toei decided to just roll with their current storyline rather than retcon their strength figuring their target audience wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

The reason I say this is because both the Champa arc and Future Trunks arc are actually written as if the power creep didn't exist. When taken in a vacuum, it's clear the design was to have Piccolo stronger than base but weaker than SSJ. They only reason we think differently is because of previous material which again I think was based on the movies and NOT Toriyamas outline.

[ekrolo2]

I feel like I've already given a pretty plausible explanation on why the power levels are so different.

I believe when Super began Toriyama had not actually completed an outline. So Toriyama and Toei agreed to base it off of his movies which Toei adapted while Toriyama was writing new material and outlines. In the process I feel Toriyama decided the power creep would be too large for an ongoing series. The problem is by the time this was figured out they could have already been in the ROF arc and Toei decided to just roll with their current storyline rather than retcon their strength figuring their target audience wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

The reason I say this is because both the Champa arc and Future Trunks arc are actually written as if the power creep didn't exist. When taken in a vacuum, it's clear the design was to have Piccolo stronger than base but weaker than SSJ. They only reason we think differently is because of previous material which again I think was based on the movies and NOT Toriyamas outline.

Considering the fact Super was announced a mere two-three months ahead of its actual release, I can buy that Toriyama probably had little in the way of involvement with re-tellings and just worked on U6 stuff. Who knows, Toyotaro might have dodged a bullet by simply skipping over the F arc, if he had done and it tried to stay closer to what the movie had to say for the PLs, his version could've just been as big of a mess as the anime.

[buutenks]

Meh, ssg got left in the dust in the anime. Oh well.

[Rubens]

About the Piccolo vs Frost discussion:

The other day I rewatched the episode of DB where Upa and Pu'er fight vs Dracula Man. Kuririn fought him and was oustped by the latter, who immediatly started leeching his blood and weakning Kuririn. Next, the first ones decide to fight together and managed to beat the Dracula by using cliché stuff (garlic breath, cross shaped stuff, etc.). Now, would you say those two are stronger than the Dracula Man? Or even Kuririn? No, they're utterly weak compared to anyone from that group; the difference is that they defeated him by exploring his weaknesses (sure it was a "gag fight" but it had a point).

In case of Piccolo, there's a few things to consider: In base, Goku overwhelmed Frost's first two forms; Goku just turns into a super saiyan to show him how outmatched Frost actually was - probably Goku could beat him in base, but why getting tired in the first fights in a tournament like that, without breaks inbetween (even so, Goku seemed to be holding back as super saiyan)? Frost was helpless and beaten, but cheated to win. Then Piccolo comes in and he's told he has no chances to win. Piccolo plays on the defence to avoid Frost's attacks to ware him down even more than he was already.

As I mentioned in the first example, would you say Piccolo was stronger than SSj or even base Goku? Than Frost? No, he exploited Frost's weakness: he was exhausted and underestimated Piccolo, who outsmarted him. On the other hand, it's conceivable that Piccolo is stronger than he was in Boo arc if one assumes he didn't stop training ever since.

Anyway, this is my interpretation and I understand if you don't agree but sometimes matches aren't won by mere power/strength and I believe this was the case.

Note: I see the base --> ssj without thinking about the multipliers, and that's the only way to help understanding a few things.

[buutenks]

About the Piccolo vs Frost discussion:

The other day I rewatched the episode of DB where Upa and Pu'er fight vs Dracula Man. Kuririn fought him and was oustped by the latter, who immediatly started leeching his blood and weakning Kuririn. Next, the first ones decide to fight together and managed to beat the Dracula by using cliché stuff (garlic breath, cross shaped stuff, etc.). Now, would you say those two are stronger than the Dracula Man? Or even Kuririn? No, they're utterly weak compared to anyone from that group; the difference is that they defeated him by exploring his weaknesses (sure it was a "gag fight" but it had a point).

In case of Piccolo, there's a few things to consider: In base, Goku overwhelmed Frost's first two forms; Goku just turns into a super saiyan to show him how outmatched Frost actually was - probably Goku could beat him in base, but why getting tired in the first fights in a tournament like that, without breaks inbetween (even so, Goku seemed to be holding back as super saiyan)? Frost was helpless and beaten, but cheated to win. Then Piccolo comes in and he's told he has no chances to win. Piccolo plays on the defence to avoid Frost's attacks to ware him down even more than he was already.

As I mentioned in the first example, would you say Piccolo was stronger than SSj or even base Goku? Than Frost? No, he exploited Frost's weakness: he was exhausted and underestimated Piccolo, who outsmarted him. On the other hand, it's conceivable that Piccolo is stronger than he was in Boo arc if one assumes he didn't stop training ever since.

Anyway, this is my interpretation and I understand if you don't agree but sometimes matches aren't won by mere power/strength and I believe this was the case.

Actually Goku and Frost were pretty much dead even from the looks of it, tho Goku did say he is a slow starter, so proly full power base Goku is stronger than assault form Frost and perhaps as strong as final form Frost. Also, i think those examples dont quite fit, since those stuff played on dracula man's fear.

Plus Piccolo was physically blocking Frost;s punches with one arm and outrunning him. So while he definitely was not stronger than weakened FF Frost, he wasnt that much weaker either. Ofc i doubt Piccolo is stronger than base Goku in u6 arc. The only fighter besides Hit who could match ssj1 Goku or vegeta is Magetta.

[TheMikado]

I feel like I've already given a pretty plausible explanation on why the power levels are so different.

I believe when Super began Toriyama had not actually completed an outline. So Toriyama and Toei agreed to base it off of his movies which Toei adapted while Toriyama was writing new material and outlines. In the process I feel Toriyama decided the power creep would be too large for an ongoing series. The problem is by the time this was figured out they could have already been in the ROF arc and Toei decided to just roll with their current storyline rather than retcon their strength figuring their target audience wouldn't notice the difference anyway.

The reason I say this is because both the Champa arc and Future Trunks arc are actually written as if the power creep didn't exist. When taken in a vacuum, it's clear the design was to have Piccolo stronger than base but weaker than SSJ. They only reason we think differently is because of previous material which again I think was based on the movies and NOT Toriyamas outline.

Considering the fact Super was announced a mere two-three months ahead of its actual release, I can buy that Toriyama probably had little in the way of involvement with re-tellings and just worked on U6 stuff. Who knows, Toyotaro might have dodged a bullet by simply skipping over the F arc, if he had done and it tried to stay closer to what the movie had to say for the PLs, his version could've just been as big of a mess as the anime.

I do think that's what happened, we keep trying to make in universe explanation for a possible out of universe reason, like trying to specifically explain in universe why SSJ is blonde. The fact that if you isolate the arcs you would make the natural assumptions that base isn't much stronger than it was.

[Rubens]

[spoiler]

About the Piccolo vs Frost discussion:

The other day I rewatched the episode of DB where Upa and Pu'er fight vs Dracula Man. Kuririn fought him and was oustped by the latter, who immediatly started leeching his blood and weakning Kuririn. Next, the first ones decide to fight together and managed to beat the Dracula by using cliché stuff (garlic breath, cross shaped stuff, etc.). Now, would you say those two are stronger than the Dracula Man? Or even Kuririn? No, they're utterly weak compared to anyone from that group; the difference is that they defeated him by exploring his weaknesses (sure it was a "gag fight" but it had a point).

In case of Piccolo, there's a few things to consider: In base, Goku overwhelmed Frost's first two forms; Goku just turns into a super saiyan to show him how outmatched Frost actually was - probably Goku could beat him in base, but why getting tired in the first fights in a tournament like that, without breaks inbetween (even so, Goku seemed to be holding back as super saiyan)? Frost was helpless and beaten, but cheated to win. Then Piccolo comes in and he's told he has no chances to win. Piccolo plays on the defence to avoid Frost's attacks to ware him down even more than he was already.

As I mentioned in the first example, would you say Piccolo was stronger than SSj or even base Goku? Than Frost? No, he exploited Frost's weakness: he was exhausted and underestimated Piccolo, who outsmarted him. On the other hand, it's conceivable that Piccolo is stronger than he was in Boo arc if one assumes he didn't stop training ever since.

Anyway, this is my interpretation and I understand if you don't agree but sometimes matches aren't won by mere power/strength and I believe this was the case.

Actually Goku and Frost were pretty much dead even from the looks of it, tho Goku did say he is a slow starter, so proly full power base Goku is stronger than assault form Frost and perhaps as strong as final form Frost. Also, i think those examples dont quite fit, since those stuff played on dracula man's fear.

Plus Piccolo was physically blocking Frost;s punches with one arm and outrunning him. So while he definitely was not stronger than weakened FF Frost, he wasnt that much weaker either. Ofc i doubt Piccolo is stronger than base Goku in u6 arc. The only fighter besides Hit who could match ssj1 Goku or vegeta is Magetta.

[/spoiler]
I have to say I agree with you, so I suppose it all comes down to how worn out Frost got.

[buutenks]

I do think that's what happened, we keep trying to make in universe explanation for a possible out of universe reason, like trying to specifically explain in universe why SSJ is blonde. The fact that if you isolate the arcs you would make the natural assumptions that base isn't much stronger than it was.

i dont think that is how one should see it. If you view each arc as something not related to the one before, then u have no idea how strong the characters are.

As much as i dont like the power inflation of allot of characters for no reason, in the anime, the characters are that powerful. While in the manga, it is more controlled and they are at buu saga levels with ssj blue and Hit being ssg level.

Edit: But tbh, the only thing which the power inflation does in the anime is it makes ssg seem less special.

Also, if u think about it, even if Beerus only used like 10% vs ssg Goku, that would still be something impressive considering Beerus has never met someone who came that close to his power, except for Whis, who doesnt count ofc. And champa and vados and well u get it. But they dont count.