Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

I do think that's what happened, we keep trying to make in universe explanation for a possible out of universe reason, like trying to specifically explain in universe why SSJ is blonde. The fact that if you isolate the arcs you would make the natural assumptions that base isn't much stronger than it was.

i dont think that is how one should see it. If you view each arc as something not related to the one before, then u have no idea how strong the characters are.

As much as i dont like the power inflation of allot of characters for no reason, in the anime, the characters are that powerful. While in the manga, it is more controlled and they are at buu saga levels with ssj blue and Hit being ssg level.

Edit: But tbh, the only thing which the power inflation does in the anime is it makes ssg seem less special.

Also, if u think about it, even if Beerus only used like 10% vs ssg Goku, that would still be something impressive considering Beerus has never met someone who came that close to his power, except for Whis, who doesnt count ofc. And champa and vados and well u get it. But they dont count.

Except that still makes Goku roughly on par with or slightly stronger than Rageta, another guy Beerus said made him use 10%. The fucking statement that continues to break everything to this very day.

[buutenks]

Except that still makes Goku roughly on par with or slightly stronger than Rageta, another guy Beerus said made him use 10%. The fucking statement that continues to break everything to this very day.

haha, ye hehe.

Well if one takes the 10% line. Then, it is simple. Current ssj blue is an 8, Black Rose 8.2, Beerus 10. KKx10 never happened and ssj1-3 is below ssg, far below it.

Basically:

Rageta:2%, Galic Gun 4%,

ssj1-3 4-9%, ssj blue 80%.

Pretty sure the manga is basically like that. Anime is a bit more screwed with all the ups and downs.

[ekrolo2]

haha, ye hehe.

Well if one takes the 10% line. Then, it is simple. Current ssj blue is an 8, Black Rose 8.2, Beerus 10. KKx10 never happened and ssj1-3 is below ssg, far below it.

Basically:

Rageta:2%, Galic Gun 4%,

ssj1-3 4-9%, ssj blue 80%.

I wouldn't make Blue that powerful, even without KK, Toriyama still wants Beerus to be a far amount stronger than either Goku or Vegeta. At highest, I'd put them at 60% of his strength.

[buutenks]

haha, ye hehe.

Well if one takes the 10% line. Then, it is simple. Current ssj blue is an 8, Black Rose 8.2, Beerus 10. KKx10 never happened and ssj1-3 is below ssg, far below it.

Basically:

Rageta:2%, Galic Gun 4%,

ssj1-3 4-9%, ssj blue 80%.

I wouldn't make Blue that powerful, even without KK, Toriyama still wants Beerus to be a far amount stronger than either Goku or Vegeta. At highest, I'd put them at 60% of his strength.

Well, it was said ssj blue surpasses ssg, so i guess since ssg is 60%, ssj blue would be 62%?

All in all, Toriyama;s scale still makes the most sense IMO. Beerus is still stronger, but it actually makes a bit of sense why he would find ssg impressive.

[TheMikado]

I do think that's what happened, we keep trying to make in universe explanation for a possible out of universe reason, like trying to specifically explain in universe why SSJ is blonde. The fact that if you isolate the arcs you would make the natural assumptions that base isn't much stronger than it was.

i dont think that is how one should see it. If you view each arc as something not related to the one before, then u have no idea how strong the characters are.

As much as i dont like the power inflation of allot of characters for no reason, in the anime, the characters are that powerful. While in the manga, it is more controlled and they are at buu saga levels with ssj blue and Hit being ssg level.

Edit: But tbh, the only thing which the power inflation does in the anime is it makes ssg seem less special.

Also, if u think about it, even if Beerus only used like 10% vs ssg Goku, that would still be something impressive considering Beerus has never met someone who came that close to his power, except for Whis, who doesnt count ofc. And champa and vados and well u get it. But they dont count.

That's not what I mean, I'm talking about the creation process. Looking at the arcs, the best evidence that they were created using different mindsets is that what logically makes sense.

The BOG and ROF appear to be directly adapted from the movies where SSG power was absorbed, however the scaling in the last two arcs makes more logical sense following the manga which shows SSG power as not being absorbed. I'm not stating that we should apply that thinking retroactively to the BOG or ROF arcs but that they appear to be directly adapted from the movies while the other arcs appear to be direct adaptations from the outline which may have introduced changes or retcons.

[Bullza]

Do we know specifically where Beerus' planet is located?

I'm not sure, they said Earth was on the edge of the Universe though. Wasn't it said once that the Supreme Kai's planet was on the outside of the Universe? That may not apply anymore though. Still from Beerus' planet he is capable of sensing Super Saiyan Gohan/Trunks energy. I know he had to look for it but you'd think he'd be able to pick up a God tier Piccolo and Gohan fighting.

Piccolo was nowhere close to that point despite his gains. My responce to Piccolo's lack of acknowledgement remains what I have already reiterated -- his power ultimately wasn't important at the tournament when in comparison to the majority of Champa's contestants.

They do usually comment on such things anyway. Trunks' power was weaker than Black, Goku and Vegeta but twice they commented on his power increase.

This was a Piccolo who Goku said had zero chance of winning, but maybe he could help lower (the already tired) Frost's energy "even if it was a little". He did not want to fight Frost in his Final Form and when it came to the fight he knew better than to even throw a punch. That entire fight was about Piccolo using strategy to buy him as much time as he could to power up that one attack that surpassed his normal limits.

No he wasn't beaten as easily as what he should be but they had to make something out of the fight. People would have been pissed if Frost had poked him and he went flying out of the ring within the first few seconds.

You see, again, it's funny how Piccolo has to be dissected in an effort to discredit his performance as being the result of a need to gratuitously pan out the episode's length. Where was all this adamancy when Future Trunks was gaining the upperhand against opponents on-par or greater than SSJB Goku? Have you been trying to assert Trunks as inferior to SSJ3 Goku and Base Black in the anime despite what was shown?

Future Trunks is a little complicated himself but it's very different from Piccolo. Trunks had 10 years to get that strong and we don't know exactly what he did. Piccolo had 3-4 days to get that strong and he couldn't have done much, even you don't want to include that it'd still mean Piccolo grew that strong in just several months, a similar time to Vegeta but he had special training with Whis designed to bring him up to God level.

Goku said how far Trunks had been able to come and Beerus said he was pretty good, even that recent tidbit in the preview said that his power had increased a lot after training. Nobody said anything about Piccolo.

Trunks has had actual back and forth exchanges with people like Black, Vegeta and Zamasu, he's been punched by them and still kept going. Piccolo just dodged around while powering up one attack, he was only hit twice, the first was a blast which he let happen and the second was what sent him out of the ring. Whereas Trunks kicked SSJR Black into a building, Piccolo never hit Frost so much as once.

[buutenks]

I think that only ssj blue and Black Rose are at ssg level. And perhaps Future Zamasu, we will see next ep.

I see no reason to place ssj1 at ssg level. The way i see it, ssj1 now is very powerful, around ssj1 vegetto's level for comparison.

Basically i see it like this:

Rageta 1%
ssj1 Vegetto 5%
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta 2-5%

When Goku lost the god power, the power still burned inside him, allowing for him to fight Beerus. It didnt mattered weather he was a ssj or base form, his power was the same, hence why he was able to punch that massive ki ball in his base form. After the fight, Goku absorbed all the power, however he couldnt tap into all of it normally. Hence the WHis training, which also allowed Vegeta to catch up and unlock ssj blue.

So, their base forms got a massive power up from Goku absorbing the god power and Whis training, but they were still not close to ssg power. So once they obtained ssj blue, they unlocked the power of ssg again.

So Beerus 10
ssj blue 6.2
ssg 6
Black Rose 6.4 and rising.
Golden Freeza 6.3
Hit 6.5

It fits with the manga and the 10% line from the anime. Plus since Future Trunks is still Vegettoish level, he can catch Black Rose by surprise. It also fits with what was shown this ep with kid Trunks and Future Trunks unable to sense god ki, while Golden Freeza could, even tho Final Form Freeza could not sense god ki.

And kkx10 thing, think we can all agree that is pure filler, since even the anime itself tries to forget it happened lol.

[Noah]

Was this even confirmed?

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

I don't remember Trunks saying that he can sense Rosé Black

[TheMikado]

Was this even confirmed?

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

I don't remember Trunks saying that he can sense Rosé Black

Nothing was said of SSR yet, but Trunks can sense Blacks normal Ki.

[Noah]

Nothing was said of SSR yet, but Trunks can sense Blacks normal Ki.

But that's okay as Trunks can sense base Goku and Vegeta as well.


Talking about Black, anyone knows how his power works? We see him tanking SSGSS Vegeta punches, then he kicked him and turned Rosé, still was not a great gap between their power, but Black says that the "pain" of this battle would make him stronger, but then in NEP we see that Black is still evenly matched with Blue, like what the f***? He didn't improved at all?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see why we have to assume that Goku got weaker after BoG arc.
This is what Super shows: After he absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, which was on a level far beyond Vegetto's, Goku's base form became much stronger than before, stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and his Super Saiyan form was stated to be as strong as Super Saiyan God, and dozens of times stronger than his base form (x50 according to guidebooks). He can become even stronger with Super Saiyan 2 (x2 according to guidebooks), and get an even greater power up with Super Saiyan 3 (x4 according to guidebooks), and with his strongest transformation, Super Saiyan Blue, he becomes a god. In this form, he can use Kaio-ken to become x2 stronger, and can raise the level up to x10.
Vegeta, on the other hand, obtained the power of Super Saiyan God through Whis' ki control training for 6 months, and his power rivals Goku's, with SS, SS2, and SSB forms in his arsenal.
Piccolo trained with Gohan for a year, and Gohan regained back his Ultimate power-up, while Piccolo obtained power that rivals Gohan's.
Future Trunks trained hard for over a decade, and obtained power that currently rivals Goku's & Vegeta's when they are in the same form, with SS & SS2 forms in his arsenal. After he trained with Vegeta, his SS2 form reached a level close to SSB.

And this is Toei's anime, not Toriyama's original manga. In the anime, even fights can happen with much greater gaps in battle powers compared to the manga, and sudden power-ups through training can happen at any point.

Was this even confirmed?

Yes. Trunks can sense Black's ki, but he can't sense the ki of gods like SSB Vegeta.

I don't remember Trunks saying that he can sense Rosé Black

I don't remember Trunks saying that he can't sense SSR Black. Which is something he should have said, since he was searching for clues to prove that Black is Zamasu, and Black getting godly ki should have been a really huge clue (he wondered if Black was a god, and therefore Zamasu, from the way he talked about mortals in the same episode).

[Bullza]

but then in NEP we see that Black is still evenly matched with Blue, like what the f***? He didn't improved

Small gap theory .

Black's power is questionable at the moment. He beat SSJB Vegeta merely by taking him by surprise. Against SSJB Goku he seemed to have the upper hand but once again him being able to teleport aswell took Goku by surprise.

He looks to be fight Vegeta again in the next episode and as they should know what they're getting into now, it should maybe give us an idea.

So far he doesn't seem to be that much more powerful than Goku.

[Bullza]

Sorry for the double post.

Watching the latest episode again now with subs and Zamasu says that last time he fought Goku he was distressed and didn't do as well and he should have.

It could be that Future Zamasu isn't any stronger than Present Zamasu after all but the shock of Goku's strenght really caught him off guard.

[Lionel]

Do we know specifically where Beerus' planet is located?

I'm not sure, they said Earth was on the edge of the Universe though. Wasn't it said once that the Supreme Kai's planet was on the outside of the Universe? That may not apply anymore though. Still from Beerus' planet he is capable of sensing Super Saiyan Gohan/Trunks energy. I know he had to look for it but you'd think he'd be able to pick up a God tier Piccolo and Gohan fighting.

Piccolo was nowhere close to that point despite his gains. My responce to Piccolo's lack of acknowledgement remains what I have already reiterated -- his power ultimately wasn't important at the tournament when in comparison to the majority of Champa's contestants.

They do usually comment on such things anyway. Trunks' power was weaker than Black, Goku and Vegeta but twice they commented on his power increase.

This was a Piccolo who Goku said had zero chance of winning, but maybe he could help lower (the already tired) Frost's energy "even if it was a little". He did not want to fight Frost in his Final Form and when it came to the fight he knew better than to even throw a punch. That entire fight was about Piccolo using strategy to buy him as much time as he could to power up that one attack that surpassed his normal limits.

No he wasn't beaten as easily as what he should be but they had to make something out of the fight. People would have been pissed if Frost had poked him and he went flying out of the ring within the first few seconds.

You see, again, it's funny how Piccolo has to be dissected in an effort to discredit his performance as being the result of a need to gratuitously pan out the episode's length. Where was all this adamancy when Future Trunks was gaining the upperhand against opponents on-par or greater than SSJB Goku? Have you been trying to assert Trunks as inferior to SSJ3 Goku and Base Black in the anime despite what was shown?

Future Trunks is a little complicated himself but it's very different from Piccolo. Trunks had 10 years to get that strong and we don't know exactly what he did. Piccolo had 3-4 days to get that strong and he couldn't have done much, even you don't want to include that it'd still mean Piccolo grew that strong in just several months, a similar time to Vegeta but he had special training with Whis designed to bring him up to God level.

Goku said how far Trunks had been able to come and Beerus said he was pretty good, even that recent tidbit in the preview said that his power had increased a lot after training. Nobody said anything about Piccolo.

Trunks has had actual back and forth exchanges with people like Black, Vegeta and Zamasu, he's been punched by them and still kept going. Piccolo just dodged around while powering up one attack, he was only hit twice, the first was a blast which he let happen and the second was what sent him out of the ring. Whereas Trunks kicked SSJR Black into a building, Piccolo never hit Frost so much as once.

Evidently it's easier to sense from the Kaioshin planet than Beerus'. Ki signatures can be sensed in the afterlife from the mortal plane -- Goku transporting Cell to King Kai's is a case in point. SSJ3 Goku could be registered from Kaioshshin's yet Tagoma couldn't on Beerus'. With regards to Goku sensing Gohan, the latter was seemingly under the influence of a momentary rage power up combined with the same SSJ power that made the same being who was stated to be a match for Gohan at his best collapse in only one or two blows. Strong as Piccolo may have become, I don't believe he was quite at the point where he could match an older Gohan using Super Saiyan combined with his rage that surpasses his peak ability. Kid Trunks is anomaly, I have to say. Tagoma and SSJ Gotenks can't be recognised but SSJ Kid Trunks can. Well if anything it only lends further credence to Piccolo's strength since he was selected over Kid Trunks for the tournament.

No one had seen Trunks for thirteen years. Of course they were going to comment on him when his power somehow grew to the point he could compel post-RoF arc Goku to use God Ki in the manga.

Again, exhausting Frost even further is still a superior performance relative to Vegeta fighting Freeza where his strongest attack was easily kicked away. Cognitive ability alone doesn't suffice with the kind of performance Piccolo gave. If it could then Zuno would be the greatest fighter in the universe. It wasn't brain power that let him dodge those death beams, or block Frost's determined barrage of hits, or hold the guy whom he apparently had no chance against using an elongated appendage rope to restrict their movements. Or are you going to tell me he used his skull and brain tissue to physically accomplish these feats?

"As what he should"? Both mediums for the series have certifiably demonstrated his ability to hold ground against Frost. He did in fact garner a remark for his performance from Goku in the manga. Why does he even need to have Frost deplete stamina in the first place if Vegeta as a Super Saiyan is capable of so easily dominating him? And I imagine the fans were already vexed enough by the insertion of that comment about Piccolo having no chance and Vegeta wrenching the momentum of the scene away from him after being declared the winner. They have no reservations in discrediting such characters.

Regarding Trunks, we do know he was growing up in an apocalyptic world where basic essentials such as food were hard to come by. He likely had no significant resources to use for improving himself. He also would have had to train discreetly in some remote area -- i.e. "mountain training" like the humans whom many people also like to discredit as not having improved much. Actually, wait, I take that back, because at least some of the humans had sparring partners and appeared to be using what looked liked weighted training clothes. Piccolo had the guy with the strongest potential to work with, this same individual went from being deemed an embarrassment by his companions to making the people around him contemplate if he could defeat Fat Buu after swinging a sword around for a day or two in regular earth-like conditions.

Another point to consider is Trunks' integral role to the arc. This whole story is centred around him and his future timeline. The writers made it a point to reinforce the necessity of Trunks improving himself through Vegeta so he can fight such threats without needing to leave it up to others. He's become a third protagonist for the arc, arguably second since he was allowed to fight alongside Goku against the antagonists instead of Vegeta, in spite of his power being grossly insufficient for the task. Piccolo held a subsidiary role, at best, in the Champa arc. It was about the same as Krillin and Yamcha at Baba's tournament or the humans during the cyborg arc.

[ssbgoku]

I think that only ssj blue and Black Rose are at ssg level. And perhaps Future Zamasu, we will see next ep.

I see no reason to place ssj1 at ssg level. The way i see it, ssj1 now is very powerful, around ssj1 vegetto's level for comparison.

Basically i see it like this:

Rageta 1%
ssj1 Vegetto 5%
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta 2-5%

When Goku lost the god power, the power still burned inside him, allowing for him to fight Beerus. It didnt mattered weather he was a ssj or base form, his power was the same, hence why he was able to punch that massive ki ball in his base form. After the fight, Goku absorbed all the power, however he couldnt tap into all of it normally. Hence the WHis training, which also allowed Vegeta to catch up and unlock ssj blue.

So, their base forms got a massive power up from Goku absorbing the god power and Whis training, but they were still not close to ssg power. So once they obtained ssj blue, they unlocked the power of ssg again.

So Beerus 10
ssj blue 6.2
ssg 6
Black Rose 6.4 and rising.
Golden Freeza 6.3
Hit 6.5

It fits with the manga and the 10% line from the anime. Plus since Future Trunks is still Vegettoish level, he can catch Black Rose by surprise. It also fits with what was shown this ep with kid Trunks and Future Trunks unable to sense god ki, while Golden Freeza could, even tho Final Form Freeza could not sense god ki.

And kkx10 thing, think we can all agree that is pure filler, since even the anime itself tries to forget it happened lol.

Exactly that my thoughts and I am gonna stick to it .

[Khin]

Toriyama wrote Resurrection 'F' and the retelling changed no key point from the movie. So, it was always Toriyama's idea that Goku and Vegeta's base form were ungodly strong. It was only the manga that brings forward the idea that Super Saiyan God is a form that Goku can activate again like a regular transformation.

I never said Goku and Vegeta being strong in their regular forms isn't Toriyama's idea. My point is Toriyama didn't specify enough in his outline how Piccolo will do against Frost, and that leaves Toei and Toyotaro to fill it with their own ideas.

1) You don't know that and either I don't know it. However Toryiama's drafts would easily specify how strong is current goku and vegeta without going into details of battle. Difference between anime and manga is stuff about absorbing ssg power, which is manga unknown and in anime questionable at the worst.

2) Because it could relevant ?. Also short flashback to it in Trunks arc would point to it having place indeed instead of just random thrown out idea of vegeta being stronger then goku on some planet for brief moment. Also I disagree about kaioken, it clearly is following same pattern as other world kaioken ss goku one-time thing. It seems writers either noticed their fault with it or They try to make us forget it, if it isn't gonna brought up until end of Trunks arc then I am sure it was filler/Toei's idea. Why ? Because even although point was divine ki for Zamasu to be pissed even more, still how powerfull goku would be still trigger to push Zamasu's madness even more and Kaioken would prove that.

3) Of course they are infferior and it makes sense when you don't have goku aborbing ssg and able to use it's power in base or ss forms but rather bring's it back with ssb in shorter time then vegeta who had to power up all his way trough whis's training.

1) It wasn't questionable in the anime, it was literally stated that Goku absorbed the Super Saiyan God power like in the movie. Further episodes reinforced it, like having Kuririn ask Goku to punch him, Vegeta training with Whis to surpass Goku, Base Goku fighting Final Form Freeza, etc. The manga also made it clear that Goku didn't absorb the God power by having Goku as the Super Saiyan God in the whole fight. Further chapter reinforced it, like having Goku use Super Saiyan God again and Piccolo putting up a fight against Frost despite the manga never showing him training with Gohan. If Toriyama actually specified how strong Goku and Vegeta is, they won't be any difference in power between the manga and anime.

2) How could Gotenks' fight against Copy-Vegeta be any relevant ? Not only that it was barely even a fight, but it has no reason to be brought up again. The Copy-Vegea Arc was referenced in the Trunks Arc twice, and the latest episode just further reinforced that Goku and Vegeta in their Base forms are stronger than the likes of Gotenks.

The Otherworld Tournament Super Saiyan + Kaio-ken has no reason to be brought up again in the Majin Boo Arc because Goku achieved Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. Furthermore, Goku was in a dead body at a time, if the explanation of the SSB+Kaio-ken is anything to go by, that means Goku was only able to infuse Kaio-ken and SS at that time because he's in a dead body. Toei already gave us a reason why Goku wouldn't probably use Kaio-ken again in episode 41 and 43, they don't need to make us forget it when they already gave a reason why Goku wouldn't not probably use it again. And also, Zamasu wouldn't know how strong SSB + KK is just by watching it on Godtube.

3) No, that's not the point. In the latest chapter, Goku said to Trunks that Beerus is way stronger than him. That suggest that the 6-10-15 statement no longer applies in the manga as well, unless you think Goku and Vegeta received minimal gains in their training with Whis and the Room of Spirit and Time and you think gaps around 25% counts as “way stronger”.

[Hugo Boss]

Talking about Black, anyone knows how his power works? We see him tanking SSGSS Vegeta punches, then he kicked him and turned Rosé, still was not a great gap between their power, but Black says that the "pain" of this battle would make him stronger, but then in NEP we see that Black is still evenly matched with Blue, like what the f***? He didn't improved at all?

It seems Black needs to receive damage in order for his ability to work. I wouldn't be surprise if he lowers his power on purpose to make it easier to his opponents to hit him. He did that with SS2 Goku, while he should be more than capable of matching his SS3 form.

[buutenks]

I think that only ssj blue and Black Rose are at ssg level. And perhaps Future Zamasu, we will see next ep.

I see no reason to place ssj1 at ssg level. The way i see it, ssj1 now is very powerful, around ssj1 vegetto's level for comparison.

Basically i see it like this:

Rageta 1%
ssj1 Vegetto 5%
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta 2-5%

When Goku lost the god power, the power still burned inside him, allowing for him to fight Beerus. It didnt mattered weather he was a ssj or base form, his power was the same, hence why he was able to punch that massive ki ball in his base form. After the fight, Goku absorbed all the power, however he couldnt tap into all of it normally. Hence the WHis training, which also allowed Vegeta to catch up and unlock ssj blue.

So, their base forms got a massive power up from Goku absorbing the god power and Whis training, but they were still not close to ssg power. So once they obtained ssj blue, they unlocked the power of ssg again.

So Beerus 10
ssj blue 6.2
ssg 6
Black Rose 6.4 and rising.
Golden Freeza 6.3
Hit 6.5

It fits with the manga and the 10% line from the anime. Plus since Future Trunks is still Vegettoish level, he can catch Black Rose by surprise. It also fits with what was shown this ep with kid Trunks and Future Trunks unable to sense god ki, while Golden Freeza could, even tho Final Form Freeza could not sense god ki.

And kkx10 thing, think we can all agree that is pure filler, since even the anime itself tries to forget it happened lol.

Exactly that my thoughts and I am gonna stick to it .

I am glad someone agrees with me.

[Noah]

I don't think that current SSGSS Goku/Vegeta are that far below from Beerus, one could argue that Toriyama would wanted to retcon SSJG power (60% Full Power Beerus) to be less than what was presented in BoG (movie), then making plausible for Whis not state that both SSGSS's fighting together could defeat Beerus as he said in RoF (movie).

But even if Blue is somewhat 60% or less of Beerus full power in RoF Arc, they trained straight for 3 years in the RoSaT, I don't think they would come out without any significant improvement or such, I believe they are roughly 85% Beerus full power in this arc


Note: You guys would think Beerus would be excited with Super Saiyan God if only matched 50% or less of his full power?

And kkx10 thing, think we can all agree that is pure filler, since even the anime itself tries to forget it happened lol.

Like how? By having an episode when Goku suffering from Delayed Onset Ki Disorder do using Kaioken + Blue against Hit?

[Bullza]

So it might be too early to say but if you've seen the spoilers about Black already...

[spoiler]If Zamasu stole Goku's body then does that mean it'd be a Goku many years down the line if that's why his Base form is as strong as it is?[/spoiler]