Vegeta and Goku's Training Regimen/Methods

[Jamstar]

I have always wondered how did Goku train compared to the way Vegeta trained? From my perspective, Vegeta trained very hard and was very obsessed with surpassing Goku at any and all costs. Therefore, why couldn't he ever close the gap between him and Goku? He worked harder, I assume. If Vegeta had trained exactly the same way as Goku, would he have closed the gap? He was a prince afterall so he should have had some in-born gentetic superiority to a low level Saiyan, like Goku.

I guess it came down to a matter of Goku training smarter. I didn't like how Vegeta admitted Goku was number 1. I feel he could have caught up with him and surpassed him. It was only a matter of how he trained.

So what does everyone else think about this matter?

[Pieter]

He was a prince afterall so he should have had some in-born gentetic superiority to a low level Saiyan, like Goku.

And what makes you think that?

Goku first surpassed Vegeta because he was trained in the art of Kaioken. Later because he started training in a gravity machine and because he reached near-death more often. Then he turned SSJ. When Vegeta reaches SSJ I remember Krilin (I believe) mentioning that Vegeta might just be stronger than Goku at this point in time. I don't know why Goku surpassed him again during the ROSAT training, it's a long time since I've seen that.

In the first stage it's apperent that Goku keeps surpassing Vegeta because he has more friends & connections.

[Jamstar]

He was a prince afterall so he should have had some in-born gentetic superiority to a low level Saiyan, like Goku.

And what makes you think that?

Goku first surpassed Vegeta because he was trained in the art of Kaioken. Later because he started training in a gravity machine and because he reached near-death more often. Then he turned SSJ. When Vegeta reaches SSJ I remember Krilin (I believe) mentioning that Vegeta might just be stronger than Goku at this point in time.

How do you determine which Saiyans have royal heritage and which ones don't? The only way I can think is because those with royal blood have in-born genetic superiority; that is they are capable and have the potential to be the strongest of all Saiyans no matter what. I felt that Vegeta in the end should have reclaimed his throne.

Also, again why couldn't Vegeta surpass Goku in the end? It seemed palusible, right?

[Pieter]

He was a prince afterall so he should have had some in-born gentetic superiority to a low level Saiyan, like Goku.

And what makes you think that?

Goku first surpassed Vegeta because he was trained in the art of Kaioken. Later because he started training in a gravity machine and because he reached near-death more often. Then he turned SSJ. When Vegeta reaches SSJ I remember Krilin (I believe) mentioning that Vegeta might just be stronger than Goku at this point in time.

How do you determine which Saiyans have royal heritage and which ones don't? The only way I can think is because those with royal blood have in-born genetic superiority; that is they are capable and have the potential to be the strongest of all Saiyans no matter what. I felt that Vegeta in the end should have reclaimed his throne.

Also, again why couldn't Vegeta surpass Goku in the end? It seemed palusible, right?

We don't know much about the history of the Saiyan throne. What we do know is that Planet Vegeta was named after King Vegeta and that (in the anime) he was regarded as the strongest Saiyan. However, his son surpassed him even as a child, Bardock seems at least equally strong and we don't even know if the 'legendary supersaiyan' was of royal bloodline. Freeza killed all saiyans because more strong Saiyans kept popping up and increasing in strength. Bardock probably wasn't the only one.

I can't speculate much about the end of Dbz since I haven't seen it yet, but I would guess because Goku actually reached SSJ3 while Vegeta settled down for the family, accepting Goku was dead.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I always thought it came down to a mentality. Vegeta always thought he was entitled to greater power based on his heritage, whereas Goku didn't know (or care really) what he came from, always just training for the fun of it and to surpass his own limits.

Had Vegeta truly let go of things, as the end of DBZ implied he finally had done, I think he could have surpassed Goku. Who knows?

-Corey

[Jamstar]

I always thought it came down to a mentality. Vegeta always thought he was entitled to greater power based on his heritage, whereas Goku didn't know (or care really) what he came from, always just training for the fun of it and to surpass his own limits.

Had Vegeta truly let go of things, as the end of DBZ implied he finally had done, I think he could have surpassed Goku. Who knows?

-Corey

But, didn't he always train harder than Goku? He should have gotten better results if that was the case.

[Bardock the Mexican]

One of my biggest problems is with the idea that Vegeta is superior genetically because he is part of a royal family. It is true that certain characteristics controlled by genes can make good leaders, this brainbug needs more evidence to support it. You can't just say that he is better BECAUSE he is royal. The idea of "low class" saiyajin is no different than the class distictions of Mideval Europe or the distiction of castes in India. Bottom line is that the idea of a "high class" or elite is formulated by those in charge. That's it, jsut an ideology that was created by people to feel superior. What if the saiyajin prince had said that he is a "Aryan" rather than "elite"? Blonde hair and blue eyes...it all makes sense.

[omegacwa]

It really comes down to one reason why goku was stronger than vegeta, He is the main character and vegeta is not. It is as simple as that.

Sure, in both the Manga and Anime, it is implied that Vegeta Trains more and is more intense with his training than goku. Yet he never achieves results like goku does. I always found this to be an inconsistency.

Here is one that always made me angry with Toryiama, Vegeta goes into the ROSAT twice, yet isn't as strong as goku, who goes in once. How the hell does that make any sense? It's not like goku was way stronger than vegeta when they both went in for the first time, infact at that point Vegeta is considered the strongest Sayia-jin if I recall correctly. And why wouldn't Vegeta attempt to reach the Full power SSJ1 state? It just doesn't make sense.

and for the record Vegeta, when he and Goku first meet, is Stronger than Goku. Even with the Kaio Ken, he was unable to defeat Vegeta due to the fact that Kaio Ken only works in bursts, while at base Vegeta is vastly superior to Goku.

[Jamstar]

One of my biggest problems is with the idea that Vegeta is superior genetically because he is part of a royal family. It is true that certain characteristics controlled by genes can make good leaders, this brainbug needs more evidence to support it. You can't just say that he is better BECAUSE he is royal. The idea of "low class" saiyajin is no different than the class distictions of Mideval Europe or the distiction of castes in India. Bottom line is that the idea of a "high class" or elite is formulated by those in charge. That's it, jsut an ideology that was created by people to feel superior. What if the saiyajin prince had said that he is a "Aryan" rather than "elite"? Blonde hair and blue eyes...it all makes sense.

Are you calling me a brainbug? I don't believe it is an ideologue as far as Saiyans are concerned. Maybe I'm wrong. Are you saying the royal saiyans are not more powerful than the lower levels?

[MajinVejitaXV]

But, didn't he always train harder than Goku? He should have gotten better results if that was the case.

Eh, not necessarily. Holistically speaking, if Vegeta's head wasn't in the game he might not have been able to reach Goku's level in spite of his training.

Realistically, however, there is a factor that hasn't been brought up:

Inbreeding

Royalty tends to stick with royalty, which might have been the case for the Saiyans (they certainly have a caste system, which would forbid marrying/mating with those outside of their own class). Now, from study, we know inbreeding can lead to defects both on a physical and mental level. To quote a much better source:

And it won’t work – Aryan supremacists, white supremacists, black supremacists, blue supremacists- especially the blue supremacists, they’ll never work, because if you get the same people from the same genetic group to all intermarry, hello? Cousins marrying, hello?? IQ down the toilet! Hitler was trying this’ first generation of Nazis would have been, “Sieg Heil!” Second generation, “Sieg Heil…” Third generation, “Er… Sieg… er… I’ve no idea.”

Other than that, there's a multitude of things. One could say Vegeta *overtrained*, which is detrimental as anyone who has done any type of workout regiment knows. The thing that increases strength is not the destruction that takes place during training, but rather the resting period wherein the body rebuilds itself and adapts.

Thoughts?

-Corey

[Jamstar]

But, didn't he always train harder than Goku? He should have gotten better results if that was the case.

Eh, not necessarily. Holistically speaking, if Vegeta's head wasn't in the game he might not have been able to reach Goku's level in spite of his training.

Realistically, however, there is a factor that hasn't been brought up:

Inbreeding

Royalty tends to stick with royalty, which might have been the case for the Saiyans (they certainly have a caste system, which would forbid marrying/mating with those outside of their own class). Now, from study, we know inbreeding can lead to defects both on a physical and mental level. To quote a much better source:

And it won’t work – Aryan supremacists, white supremacists, black supremacists, blue supremacists- especially the blue supremacists, they’ll never work, because if you get the same people from the same genetic group to all intermarry, hello? Cousins marrying, hello?? IQ down the toilet! Hitler was trying this’ first generation of Nazis would have been, “Sieg Heil!” Second generation, “Sieg Heil…” Third generation, “Er… Sieg… er… I’ve no idea.”

Other than that, there's a multitude of things. One could say Vegeta *overtrained*, which is detrimental as anyone who has done any type of workout regiment knows. The thing that increases strength is not the destruction that takes place during training, but rather the resting period wherein the body rebuilds itself and adapts.

Thoughts?

-Corey

What do you mean by Vegeta's head not being in the game? Also, I believe Vegeta was a smart enough warrior to knwo overtraining would be detrimental. As far as the inbreeding aspect goes, I believe you are overanalyzing at that point. I don't believe AT was thinking of that when he made the manga.

[MajinVejitaXV]

What do you mean by Vegeta's head not being in the game?

He had tunnel vision, basically. I might be stating it inadequately, but his focus was so much on Goku that he didn't see other factors (until the end of the series).

Also, I believe Vegeta was a smart enough warrior to knwo overtraining would be detrimental.

Yes and no. Think about it, though it's anime only, Vegeta nearly *kills* himself both when exercising at Capsule Corp. and when in outer space. He was so obsessed with becoming more powerful that Goku that it overrode his common sense.

As far as the inbreeding aspect goes, I believe you are overanalyzing at that point. I don't believe AT was thinking of that when he made the manga.

Of course I'm over-analyzing. The real answer to your question? Toriyama wrote DragonBall with Goku as the hero. That's why Vegeta never surpassed him (for long). It's also why Goku saved the day when Gohan and Gotenks were both more powerful than him.

"He is the hero guy" ;p

-Corey

[Jamstar]

What do you mean by Vegeta's head not being in the game?

He had tunnel vision, basically. I might be stating it inadequately, but his focus was so much on Goku that he didn't see other factors (until the end of the series).

Also, I believe Vegeta was a smart enough warrior to knwo overtraining would be detrimental.

Yes and no. Think about it, though it's anime only, Vegeta nearly *kills* himself both when exercising at Capsule Corp. and when in outer space. He was so obsessed with becoming more powerful that Goku that it overrode his common sense.

As far as the inbreeding aspect goes, I believe you are overanalyzing at that point. I don't believe AT was thinking of that when he made the manga.

Of course I'm over-analyzing. The real answer to your question? Toriyama wrote DragonBall with Goku as the hero. That's why Vegeta never surpassed him (for long). It's also why Goku saved the day when Gohan and Gotenks were both more powerful than him.

"He is the hero guy" ;p

-Corey

OHHHHH. Now I see what you mean regarding Vegeta. Do you think he used senzu beans when almost killing himself when training? If not, did it take him quite awhile to recover otherwise?

Between Goku and Vegeta, who do you think has a higher work ethic and why?

[gohanku]

Not to mention that Vegeta was most likey never beaten to a near-death experince in Planet Vegeta. Goku got Master Roshi training, zenkai after the Jackie Chuan fight, got another zenkai after the Muscule Tower then a third after the first fight with Tao pai pai. And then he got training from Korin and a zenkai from Tien at the 22nd World Tournament. Not to mention from Tamborine and King Piccolo. And a major boost by the Holy God Water and the second battle with King Piccolo. (Not sure with second battle)

Then the training from Kami and the battle with Ma Jr. Did Vegeta get to do all of this? Did he have that many zenkai from his childhood to the end of DB? That is why Goku kind of made the gap so small. He unlike Vegeta got more trouble to handle but Vegeta was jusy born strong. So to quote Goku: "Even a low class can surpass an elite if he trains enough."

[Jamstar]

Not to mention that Vegeta was most likey never beaten to a near-death experince in Planet Vegeta. Goku got Master Roshi training, zenkai after the Jackie Chuan fight, got another zenkai after the Muscule Tower then a third after the first fight with Tao pai pai. And then he got training from Korin and a zenkai from Tenshinhan at the 22nd World Tournament. Not to mention from Tamborine and King Piccolo. And a major boost by the Holy God Water and the second battle with King Piccolo. (Not sure with second battle)

Then the training from Kami and the battle with Ma Jr. Did Vegeta get to do all of this? Did he have that many zenkai from his childhood to the end of DB? That is why Goku kind of made the gap so small. He unlike Vegeta got more trouble to handle but Vegeta was jusy born strong. So to quote Goku: "Even a low class can surpass an elite if he trains enough."

The fact is that in the beginning of Dragonball Z Goku's powerlevel is in the 330's. So those zenkai powerups earlier don't really matter. And, we don't know if Vegeta was born with a powerlevel of 18,000.

[Conan the SSJ]

Not to mention that Vegeta was most likey never beaten to a near-death experince in Planet Vegeta. Goku got Master Roshi training, zenkai after the Jackie Chuan fight, got another zenkai after the Muscule Tower then a third after the first fight with Tao pai pai. And then he got training from Korin and a zenkai from Tenshinhan at the 22nd World Tournament. Not to mention from Tamborine and King Piccolo. And a major boost by the Holy God Water and the second battle with King Piccolo. (Not sure with second battle)

Then the training from Kami and the battle with Ma Jr. Did Vegeta get to do all of this? Did he have that many zenkai from his childhood to the end of DB? That is why Goku kind of made the gap so small. He unlike Vegeta got more trouble to handle but Vegeta was jusy born strong. So to quote Goku: "Even a low class can surpass an elite if he trains enough."

I don't know, at the start of DBZ, Goku had a full power level of 416 (his maximum Kamehame-Ha could only bring it far enough to just above 950) and Vegeta's level was arguably at 18,000. With the start of DBZ, it didn't matter how much holy water Goku drank or how many zenkais he attained as a child, he was still significantly inferior. The only reason Goku got strong enough to start that gap was because he had special training in the Afterlife (along with eating a special piece of fruit in the anime that doubled his power) that was equivalent to 20,000 years of training on Earth; along with the fact he'd learned the Kaioken attack. After the battle with Vegeta, his body was just as ravaged and beaten as the Prince of all Saiyans while in the case of the anime, he actually continued to somewhat train while he was injured (in contrast to Vegeta taking the easy route staying laid back for the space technology to heal him). Both of those elements combined served to most likely give him a fantastic zenkai when he ate Yajirobe's Senzu.

Goku then underwent 5-6 days of intensive gravity training ranging from 20-100x Earth's gravity, combined with injuring himself quite a few times (he ate at least two Senzus on the way to Namek), it's no wonder his level could go to 180,000 maximum. Then came the fantastic zenkai he received after the controversial body-and-spirit battle he had with Ginyu, his zenkai from the battle against Freeza w/t subsequent training on Yardrat (which is implied had a much higher gravity than Earth, as Goku didn't know his own strength just by tapping Chichi), the 3 years of Android training, then the year of training in the ROSAT. After the conflict with Cell, Goku then got the most special training he'd ever received in getting basically 7 years nonstop training in the next-world which was rigorous enough that he was capable of reaching Super Saiyan levels 2 and 3 (whilst Vegeta's standard training on Earth was only enough to possibly get him to the point of going Super Saiyan 2, a factor which in itself is debatable).

As we can see, the gap exists because Goku gets the advantage of higher/different levels of training, and as Corey said, had his mind focused on surpassing his own limits; not a 24/7 hemorrhoids-pissed mindset of beating "Kakarrot".

[Drabaz]

Wasn't it easier for Goku to train in the other world? Thats why Goku was a stronger SSJ2 than Vegeta until he went Majin. After he went Majin they were pretty much even in power.
Vegeta admitted Goku was number 1 because he was able to go SSJ3. Vegeta had realized that no matter how much he trained he can only become a powerful SSJ2. He had found his limit. But Goku has a certain talent that makes his power limitless.

[Android18]

Wasn't it easier for Goku to train in the other world? Thats why Goku was a stronger SSJ2 than Vegeta until he went Majin. After he went Majin they were pretty much even in power.
Vegeta admitted Goku was number 1 because he was able to go SSJ3. Vegeta had realized that no matter how much he trained he can only become a powerful SSJ2. He had found his limit. But Goku has a certain talent that makes his power limitless.

He doesn't have talent he just have ways, goku only needed to be in another dimension for ssj3 and old kai only had to regrow his tail so goku can get ssj4 its not talent.

[Drabaz]

Let me kind of rephrase it then. Goku has the "ability" to ascend to SSJ3. Where as Vegeta does not. Vegeta realizes this and says Goku is number 1.
I'm not going to bother with GT.

[Rocketman]

Goku then underwent 5-6 days of intensive gravity training ranging from 20-100x Earth's gravity, combined with injuring himself quite a few times (he ate at least two Senzus on the way to Namek), it's no wonder his level could go to 180,000 maximum.

90,000. 180,000 was with the Kaioken.