Theories On the Origin of Black

[DragonHermit]

Can someone reopen that [SPOILER] thread. You can't have a serious discussion putting spoilers around every post.

[Anime Kitten]

You can't have a serious discussion putting spoilers around every post.

Why not? Having Spoilers doesn't affect the actual conversation at hand.

[DragonHermit]

You can't have a serious discussion putting spoilers around every post.

Why not? Having Spoilers doesn't affect the actual conversation at hand.

Cause you can't scroll and read comments. You have to click each individual spoiler. It gets tedious when looking through multiple pages.

[Khin]

Again, Trunks wouldn't leave until the androids were dealt with in the past. And Cell Games couldn't happened if Cell never became complete. Especially since Cell wasn't born until past the Buu Saga.

The guidebook mentioning the issue does not have any much context behind it. The Daizenshuu mentioned the Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline, whether Trunks left the timeline first in unknown, but if they mentioned the Cell Games happened, then it damned happen, the only problem is it lacks context, but that doesn't take away what was established. We only two two things about the timeline. (1) The original Future Trunk got the blueprints there and used it to defeat his timelines' androids, and (2) The Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline without Trunks. The fact that they only mentioned Trunks got the blueprints without any mention of him also having the shutdown controller, might imply he left the 4th Timeline before Bulma finished making the shutdown controller. Or else they should've said Trunks got the shutdown controller from the past and used it to destroy his timeline's Androids instead.

[HeroR]

Again, Trunks wouldn't leave until the androids were dealt with in the past. And Cell Games couldn't happened if Cell never became complete. Especially since Cell wasn't born until past the Buu Saga.

The guidebook mentioning the issue does not have any much context behind it. The Daizenshuu mentioned the Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline, whether Trunks left the timeline first in unknown, but if they mentioned the Cell Games happened, then it damned happen, the only problem is it lacks context, but that doesn't take away what was established. We only two two things about the timeline. (1) The original Future Trunk got the blueprints there and used it to defeat his timelines' androids, and (2) The Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline without Trunks. The fact that they only mentioned Trunks got the blueprints without any mention of him also having the shutdown controller, might imply he left the 4th Timeline before Bulma finished making the shutdown controller. Or else they should've said Trunks got the shutdown controller from the past and used it to destroy his timeline's Androids instead.

How did Trunks get ambushed if he knew about Cell like the Trunks who didn't get killed? And why did that Trunks get killed Imperfect Cell if he was preparing to fight Perfect Cell? There is no way that version of Perfect Cell would be so weak that Imperfect Cell surpassed him. And if Trunks left before the androids were defeated, nope that's simply not in Trunks' character. Unless the androids reformed and even then, the Cell Games would happened after Buu, and that if Dabura doesn't kill everyone.

And didn't the Daizenshuu claimed that Babidi in Future Trunks' timeline leave with Buu's egg since there wasn't enough energy to revive him?

[Khin]

How did Trunks get ambushed if he knew about Cell like the Trunks who didn't get killed? And why did that Trunks get killed Imperfect Cell if he was preparing to fight Perfect Cell? There is no way that version of Perfect Cell would be so weak that Imperfect Cell surpassed him. And if Trunks left before the androids were defeated, nope that's simply not in Trunks' character. Unless the androids reformed and even then, the Cell Games would happened after Buu, and that if Dabura doesn't kill everyone.

Imperfect Cell could have simply killed Trunks given that he should be stronger of the two. Also Trunks didn't plan to return to fight Perfect Cell, going by Piccolo's assumption, Trunks planned to return because he wanted everyone to know that he defeated the Androids.

One thing I just realized, if we assume that they managed to shut down the Androids, that doesn't mean they will obliterate them. Knowing Goku and the others, they probably just leave them unconscious or something somewhere, then Cell found them and absorbs them. But then again, we lack context to assume what exactly happened in that timeline, so where the hell Cell came from is hard to assume. Or perhaps due to Trunks' time traveling, history has changed that Cell was born earlier than expected.

And didn't the Daizenshuu claimed that Babidi in Future Trunks' timeline leave with Buu's egg since there wasn't enough energy to revive him?

I once said this in a thread months ago, then Herms told me that this was nowhere stated in Daizenshuu. This is probably just stuff made up by fans.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Again, Trunks wouldn't leave until the androids were dealt with in the past. And Cell Games couldn't happened if Cell never became complete. Especially since Cell wasn't born until past the Buu Saga.

The guidebook mentioning the issue does not have any much context behind it. The Daizenshuu mentioned the Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline, whether Trunks left the timeline first in unknown, but if they mentioned the Cell Games happened, then it damned happen, the only problem is it lacks context, but that doesn't take away what was established. We only two two things about the timeline. (1) The original Future Trunk got the blueprints there and used it to defeat his timelines' androids, and (2) The Cell Games happened in the 4th Timeline without Trunks. The fact that they only mentioned Trunks got the blueprints without any mention of him also having the shutdown controller, might imply he left the 4th Timeline before Bulma finished making the shutdown controller. Or else they should've said Trunks got the shutdown controller from the past and used it to destroy his timeline's Androids instead.

The guide-books should always be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the stuff in there directly contradicts what's in the actual story, and we know that Toriyama's not above pulling nonsense straight from thin air.

[Khin]

The guide-books should always be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the stuff in there directly contradicts what's in the actual story, and we know that Toriyama's not above pulling nonsense straight from thin air.

Like what ?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The guide-books should always be taken with a grain of salt. Some of the stuff in there directly contradicts what's in the actual story, and we know that Toriyama's not above pulling nonsense straight from thin air.

Like what ?

The first one that comes to mind in two contradictory birth dates for Bra.

Other examples of Toriyama contradicting his own story in interviews consist of: The locations of the East, West, and South Kaio's planets. The origins of Majin Boo. DBS has recently contradicted the method by which Kaio and Kaioshin come into being. Makaioshin used to be a thing (although I suspect that's at least partially what the current Hakaishin is based off of). The Cell Games in another timeline is highly questionable, at least.

I'm sure you could find more examples of Toriyama pulling contradictory things out of his ass (pardon my French), from the guide books all the way into more recent interviews. That's just how Toriyama is.

[Khin]

The first one that comes to mind in two contradictory birth dates for Bra.

Other examples of Toriyama contradicting his own story in interviews consist of: The locations of the East, West, and South Kaio's planets. The origins of Majin Boo. DBS has recently contradicted the method by which Kaio and Kaioshin come into being. Makaioshin used to be a thing (although I suspect that's at least partially what the current Hakaishin is based off of). The Cell Games in another timeline is highly questionable, at least.

I'm sure you could find more examples of Toriyama pulling contradictory things out of his ass (pardon my French), from the guide books all the way into more recent interviews. That's just how Toriyama is.

We only know things are contradicted when they were shown to. The old guidebooks may contain outdated stuff, but we still have things in it that wasn't changed. One of the examples is DB Cosmos, which was just shown in the latest chapter of the manga. I don't see why we can't take the guidebooks seriously, especially if one of their main purpose is to let the fans know stuff about the franchise. If we can't those things seriously, then what's the point of buying/reading them ? Toriyama's interviews and some new materials may have contradicted some previous established things, but that doesn't mean all things we know before can no longer be taken seriously, unless we now doubt that Goku is a Saiyan.

Bra's birth is indeed contradictory in the guidebooks. I don't know the about locations of the Kaio planet you're talking about, so I can't speak to that. If I remember correctly, the Makaioshins are mentioned in Chaozenshuu, so they're still a thing, there's nothing that says they no longer exist at all. And how in a way is God of Destruction based on the Makaioshin ? Dragon Ball Super has not contradicted the Kaiju tree (so far).

[Xeztin]

Basically as the title says, shouldn't Goku be in Zamasu's body somewhere? Would Black have went to kill him off? Perhaps the Future Zamasu is Goku but being controlled somehow? It could have something to do with one of those Potara ear rings.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The first one that comes to mind in two contradictory birth dates for Bra.

Other examples of Toriyama contradicting his own story in interviews consist of: The locations of the East, West, and South Kaio's planets. The origins of Majin Boo. DBS has recently contradicted the method by which Kaio and Kaioshin come into being. Makaioshin used to be a thing (although I suspect that's at least partially what the current Hakaishin is based off of). The Cell Games in another timeline is highly questionable, at least.

I'm sure you could find more examples of Toriyama pulling contradictory things out of his ass (pardon my French), from the guide books all the way into more recent interviews. That's just how Toriyama is.

We only know things are contradicted when they were shown to. The old guidebooks may contain outdated stuff, but we still have things in it that wasn't changed. One of the examples is DB Cosmos, which was just shown in the latest chapter of the manga. I don't see why we can't take the guidebooks seriously, especially if one of their main purpose is to let the fans know stuff about the franchise. If we can't those things seriously, then what's the point of buying/reading them ? Toriyama's interviews and some new materials may have contradicted some previous established things, but that doesn't mean all things we know before can no longer be taken seriously, unless we now doubt that Goku is a Saiyan.

Bra's birth is indeed contradictory in the guidebooks. I don't know the about locations of the Kaio planet you're talking about, so I can't speak to that. If I remember correctly, the Makaioshins are mentioned in Chaozenshuu, so they're still a thing, there's nothing that says they no longer exist at all. And how in a way is God of Destruction based on the Makaioshin ? Dragon Ball Super has not contradicted the Kaiju tree (so far).

I explicitly said that the Hakaishin was speculation on my part, since they both seem to be the mirror of the Kaioshin. Even if the Kaio/Kaioshin still grow on those trees, at the very least, a soft contradiction exists given that a Kaio could be promoted to a Kaioshin.

[Khin]

Basically as the title says, shouldn't Goku be in Zamasu's body somewhere? Would Black have went to kill him off? Perhaps the Future Zamasu is Goku but being controlled somehow? It could have something to do with one of those Potara ear rings.

[spoiler]According to Herms, Black killed the version of Goku whose body he stole.[/spoiler]

I explicitly said that the Hakaishin was speculation on my part, since they both seem to be the mirror of the Kaioshin. Even if the Kaio/Kaioshin still grow on those trees, at the very least, a soft contradiction exists given that a Kaio could be promoted to a Kaioshin.

It's not a contradiction because there's nothing that contradicts that someone can be promoted to be a Kaioshin. While it was explained that Kaioshin was born from the Kaiju tree, it's just the standard way of how they come into being. It's just like how you can how a child by having intercourse with your partner, but alternatively you can just adopt one.

----------

As for the new episode. Black said that he killed the version Goku whose body he stole. Since Trunks and Cell's Timeline Goku is dead while Present Goku is clearly alive, I guess we can rule out those three Gokus, that leaves to the Unseen Timeline Goku (Who was saved by the original Trunks) and the 5th Timeline? Goku.

[sailorspazz]

I'm not convinced that this arc is going to utilize every known timeline, including ones we've never seen before, to make this work. Sure, Toriyama said things would get complicated, and we did see the box with five different time rings, so I'm not saying it'd be unimaginable for them to go that route, but it feels overly complex based on what we've seen from Super so far. My thought is that they'll use only the two timelines we've seen in this arc so far. I already posted a longer version of my thoughts in the episode discussion thread, but here's how it could be possible:

1. Present Zamasu was not actually destroyed by Beerus (either he already made his wish for immortality, or somehow survived the attack unbeknownst to everyone).
2. He then proceeds to kill Gowasu as he planned, take his Potara, and use a time ring to go into the future of the present timeline. He transfers his consciousness into Gokuu, and returns back to the present (probably making a couple more jumps to the future to make more wishes).
3. He uses a different time ring to go to Trunks' timeline, where he meets up with the future Zamasu and recruits him to help with his plan (assuming this part from the part where they're seen shaking hands in the preview).

I don't know if I completely subscribe to this myself, as there are still parts that are unclear (like why future Zamasu would be the one to insist he kill Gokuu, when present Zamasu/Black is the one with the grudge), and the paradoxical nature of Black being the same Gokuu we already know gives me a headache. But to me it feels like the true answer will be something that involves the fewest number of timelines possible, rather than theories that involve three or more timelines.

[Terra-jin]

I'm not convinced that this arc is going to utilize every known timeline, including ones we've never seen before, to make this work. Sure, Toriyama said things would get complicated, and we did see the box with five different time rings, so I'm not saying it'd be unimaginable for them to go that route, but it feels overly complex based on what we've seen from Super so far. My thought is that they'll use only the two timelines we've seen in this arc so far.

Hmmm, the writers seem to be aware of the complexities of DB-style time travel. My money is on the unseen timeline, though I'm curious how the Zamasu from that timeline would've met Goku.

Manga spoiler:

[spoiler]Since Black did not come from Trunks' future timeline, and since he couldn't have come from the main timeline, he must've come from another timeline. The original timeline (Cell's future) is ruled out, because that Goku is dead long before Zamasu's arrival.[/spoiler]

Of course, there's also the mystery of that fourth green time-ring. Does that mean that there's a new, fifth timeline? Or does it mean that the whole Cell arc produced only one extra timeline, instead of three?

I'm really digging all those unanswered questions in this arc and so far, it seems the writers know how to avoid plot holes. Can't wait for next week's episode!

[dragonballhero]

Considering what Zamasu said, I'm honestly getting this weird feeling that Black is STILL the real Goku, with (MOST OF) Zamasu's MINDSET, rather than them totally switching bodies, Captain Ginyu-style. Mainly from him saying he doesn't want immortality, and claiming he'll get stronger by his own strength. Seems like a very Goku/Saiyan thing to say, doesn't it?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Considering what Zamasu said, I'm honestly getting this weird feeling that Black is STILL the real Goku, with (MOST OF) Zamasu's MINDSET, rather than them totally switching bodies, Captain Ginyu-style. Mainly from him saying he doesn't want immortality, and claiming he'll get stronger by his own strength. Seems like a very Goku/Saiyan thing to say, doesn't it?

That would go directly against his character, so I doubt it. The impulse for self-improvement probably comes from his new biology. Saiyan hormones and stuff.

[Konig]

In my opinion, the most convincing theory would be Black being future-present-Zamasu. In that scenario, the story presented in Super would be the same 'til the beginning of Future Trunks arc (which I'll call timeline A). In this timeline, Trunks never appeared, which resulted in no one suspecting Zamasu's intentions. When he sees Goku fighting in the U6-U7 tournament (since Gowasu was watching on kamitube, of course), he gets obsessed with that being and also learns about the super dragon balls. He then procedes to gather the dragon balls, wish for the body change and then kills Goku by surprise. After that, he travels to Trunks timeline (which I'll call timeline B) for some reason and recruits Zamasu from that timeline. Since that Zamasu never get to know Goku, he wishes for immortality instead. They destroy a bunch of planets and then go to Earth, which motivates Trunks to go to the present timeline seeking for help. When he does so, he disrupts that timeline (previously timeline A) and create a new one, timeline C, which is the one Super takes place. Even if what bills said it's true, and gods would somehow interfere with time, this wouldn't matter, since Trunks had already divided timeline A into 2, A and C.

Well, I'm sure this was already cogitated here, since it's an obvious theory, but It's the most likely option in my view.

[Hakaishin Saitama]

Considering what Zamasu said, I'm honestly getting this weird feeling that Black is STILL the real Goku, with (MOST OF) Zamasu's MINDSET, rather than them totally switching bodies, Captain Ginyu-style. Mainly from him saying he doesn't want immortality, and claiming he'll get stronger by his own strength. Seems like a very Goku/Saiyan thing to say, doesn't it?

That would go directly against his character, so I doubt it. The impulse for self-improvement probably comes from his new biology. Saiyan hormones and stuff.

I agree with the thought above. Zamasu performed a pure body switch with Goku (captain Ginyu style) but with the Super DBs. Inheriting the saiyan body influenced his thinking so he likes getting stronger, wants a good fight, etc. just like any other saiyan - I doubt there's any mental remnants of the actual 'Goku' in there. I'm wondering if that will somehow lead to a situation where, even though Black and Zamasu have the same goals, the saiyan influence will backfire and lead to some... issues between the two.

Of note, I think that Black had very recently wished for this body change since he hadn't fully mastered Goku's body's powers yet, and as we've seen with the story so far Black progresses insanely fast (which makes sense since Zamasu is a fighting prodigy but his original body wasn't able to progress as quickly as a saiyan's).

One of the things about Black that kind of confuses me is Black has god ki in his base form (you can see this when he first encounters and fights Goku in the present). I don't know why his god ki would transfer with his mind into Goku... unless god ki is more a mental state of being (perfect ki control) versus physical inheritance. I guess it could have been included in the transfer wish, but I doubt that...

I had thought that the 'idiot' that Gawasu referred to when describing how a few years ago another time ring appeared was Trunks using the time machine, but now I'm wondering if that was somehow caused by Black travelling into the future and creating a different timeline due to his actions (not sure if that's possible with the time rings, though).

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Considering what Zamasu said, I'm honestly getting this weird feeling that Black is STILL the real Goku, with (MOST OF) Zamasu's MINDSET, rather than them totally switching bodies, Captain Ginyu-style. Mainly from him saying he doesn't want immortality, and claiming he'll get stronger by his own strength. Seems like a very Goku/Saiyan thing to say, doesn't it?

That would go directly against his character, so I doubt it. The impulse for self-improvement probably comes from his new biology. Saiyan hormones and stuff.

I agree with the thought above. Zamasu performed a pure body switch with Goku (captain Ginyu style) but with the Super DBs. Inheriting the saiyan body influenced his thinking so he likes getting stronger, wants a good fight, etc. just like any other saiyan - I doubt there's any mental remnants of the actual 'Goku' in there. I'm wondering if that will somehow lead to a situation where, even though Black and Zamasu have the same goals, the saiyan influence will backfire and lead to some... issues between the two.

Of note, I think that Black had very recently wished for this body change since he hadn't fully mastered Goku's body's powers yet, and as we've seen with the story so far Black progresses insanely fast (which makes sense since Zamasu is a fighting prodigy but his original body wasn't able to progress as quickly as a saiyan's).

One of the things about Black that kind of confuses me is Black has god ki in his base form (you can see this when he first encounters and fights Goku in the present). I don't know why his god ki would transfer with his mind into Goku... unless god ki is more a mental state of being (perfect ki control) versus physical inheritance. I guess it could have been included in the transfer wish, but I doubt that...

I had thought that the 'idiot' that Gawasu referred to when describing how a few years ago another time ring appeared was Trunks using the time machine, but now I'm wondering if that was somehow caused by Black travelling into the future and creating a different timeline due to his actions (not sure if that's possible with the time rings, though).

Ki, or Chi, usually refers to spiritual energies, so I imagine that it would switch along with him.