Does Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[Xeztin]

Basically Saiyan Beyond God in the movie of RoF and in the anime was supposed to be Goku's base with the power of SSG. To cement this idea further in the RoF manga special, Toyotaro had the SSG in the background as Goku was punching in base. In the manga's Champa tournament, Goku went full on SSG so I'm not sure what happened there but I think its safe to not try to add that RoF manga special into the same realm as the Super manga.

Basically, I want to know what happened with this concept because in my opinion it was obviously at one time a thing that they planned to go forward with at some point or another. I think the answer is Toriyama/Toei didn't know Super would be a thing or actually planned for it, but even so I just don't think it can exist anymore. If Saiyan Beyond God had the power of SSG than normal Golden Super Saiyan should be able to kill SSJ2 Trunks with one flick instead of using SSJ3, let alone SSJB. What would be a good in-universe explanation? That Goku and Vegeta were experimenting with God Ki in base after learning SSJB? They might have found it unnecessary since the normal base>SSJ1-3> SSJB works for a better gauge when measuring an opponent instead of a Saiyan Beyond God straight to SSJB.

We all know Goku and Vegeta likes saving their trump cards for last, so perhaps Saiyan Beyond God just didn't fit well with them and could have been an experiment we'll never see again like SSJB Kaio-Ken. I'd like to think it's because there's some opponents like Trunks or Cabba and such that couldn't give a challenge against a outright Saiyan Beyond God, so they ditched it for SSJ1-3 and will use SSJB if necessary. What do you guys think?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Honestly, it's impossible to say. The mechanics of these things seem to completely change at the whim of plot convenience.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku and Vegeta can flood their God ki into their base or SSJ forms. When they do that we get Saiyan beyond God or SSJB. Goku and Vegeta may or may not have been using saiyan beyond God but Goku used it against Hit.

[Lord Beerus]

Only in Dragon Ball Heroes.

[ekrolo2]

The form only really exists in Dragon Ball Heroes, the anime and movie's don't call Goku & Vegeta's God enhanced base forms anything different: they're just their base forms but a lot stronger now.

[ryan s]

Nope and all the evidence is against it.

Episode 22: Vegeta: "Is this godly ki? The pressure is immense." if Vegeta had God ki he would not make this statement and at this point SSJ Vegeta > SSG

Trunks also notes on the pressure the first time he sensed God ki.

Goku kept the God power not the God ki

Minute: 21
Context: on the cruise ship, everyone can sense Goku’s ki
Whis: “The fact that everyone can sense Son Goku-san’s ki can only mean that he’s exceeded the amount of time he can stay as a Super Saiyan God, and has reverted back to being an ordinary Super Saiyan.”

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

[Grimlock]

The form only really exists in Dragon Ball Heroes, the anime and movie's don't call Goku & Vegeta's God enhanced base forms anything different: they're just their base forms but a lot stronger now.

So that confirms it exists. If the concept exists in the series and Heroes just gave it a name and proper explanation, then it really exists outside of Heroes too.

[miguelnuva1]

Nope and all the evidence is against it.

Episode 22: Vegeta: "Is this godly ki? The pressure is immense." if Vegeta had God ki he would not make this statement and at this point SSJ Vegeta > SSG

Trunks also notes on the pressure the first time he sensed God ki.

Goku kept the God power not the God ki

Minute: 21
Context: on the cruise ship, everyone can sense Goku’s ki
Whis: “The fact that everyone can sense Son Goku-san’s ki can only mean that he’s exceeded the amount of time he can stay as a Super Saiyan God, and has reverted back to being an ordinary Super Saiyan.”

Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”

They don't get siyan beyond God till around the Frieza fight where they master god ki.

[ryan s]

They don't get siyan beyond God till around the Frieza fight where they master god ki.[/quote]
There is no Saiyan beyond God because at this point SSJ vegeta would be above Super Saiyan 3 Vegito,

Episode 18: Vegeta>SSG>SSJ 2 vegito

Vegeta without God ki could already stomp anyone in Z so why does he need Saiyan beyond god?

he is already able to tank hits from SSJ3 Gotenks without it

[TheMikado]

I've expressed my opinion many times but I'll do so again.

When BOG and ROF were made, no one expected to make a series so it was a thing. When they made the decision to make a series I think Toei agreed to adapt the movies while Toriyama worked in the following arcs. Toriyama in the process likely realized that the power inflation would be way way way too much to make an ongoing series with and retconned it. By the time that decision was made they could have likely been in the ROF arc already for the anime. The anime was stuck where they had to roll with it where due to Toyables schedule he could make better adjustments which Toriyama seemed to approve of.

Basically the power levels and forms in Super didn't start out as being written for a long running series and this is where we are now.

[Hugo Boss]

I believe "Saiyan Beyond God" was a convenient name to differ Goku's usual outfit from the outfit designed by Whis, when Goku had already experimented [Super Saiyan] God's power.

Apart from that, I don't think this form is any different from his base.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly, it's impossible to say. The mechanics of these things seem to completely change at the whim of plot convenience.

This

[ryan s]

Honestly, it's impossible to say. The mechanics of these things seem to completely change at the whim of plot convenience.

This

I have not saw anything change from the start of Super, i have only saw a theory that had no evidence get debunked

[miguelnuva1]

They don't get siyan beyond God till around the Frieza fight where they master god ki.

There is no Saiyan beyond God because at this point SSJ vegeta would be above Super Saiyan 3 Vegito,

Episode 18: Vegeta>SSG>SSJ 2 vegito

Vegeta without God ki could already stomp anyone in Z so why does he need Saiyan beyond god?

he is already able to tank hits from SSJ3 Gotenks without it[/quote]

Saiyan beyond God is the Vegeta that beat ssj3 Gotenks. As for episode 18 Vegeta and Goku are already getting use to saiyan beyond god.

[Lord Beerus]

The form only really exists in Dragon Ball Heroes, the anime and movie's don't call Goku & Vegeta's God enhanced base forms anything different: they're just their base forms but a lot stronger now.

So that confirms it exists. If the concept exists in the series and Heroes just gave it a name and proper explanation, then it really exists outside of Heroes too.

No. The whole concept of Saiyan Beyond God is that Goku and Vegeta can tap into their Godly ki, or at the very least the power of Super Saiyan God, while in their base fore and the anime has never confirmed that to be the case. So, no. The Saiyan Beyond God form, for all intents and purposes, only exists in Dragon Ball Heroes.

[ekrolo2]

The form only really exists in Dragon Ball Heroes, the anime and movie's don't call Goku & Vegeta's God enhanced base forms anything different: they're just their base forms but a lot stronger now.

So that confirms it exists. If the concept exists in the series and Heroes just gave it a name and proper explanation, then it really exists outside of Heroes too.

No. The whole concept of Saiyan Beyond God is that Goku and Vegeta can tap into their Godly ki, or at the very least the power of Super Saiyan God, while in their base fore and the anime has never confirmed that to be the case. So, no. The Saiyan Beyond God form, for all intents and purposes, only exists in Dragon Ball Heroes.

Toriyama also doesn't call Goku & Vegeta's new base forms anything extravagant like that in interviews. He doesn't say "Saiyan Beyond God & Super Saiyan are the best methods for training!" it's just their base states even after absorption. At least, for the movies anyway.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, it is a thing in the movies & anime (though in the anime, the SbG form is the SS form). It's not shown to be a different transformation outside of Dragon Ball Heroes, but it is a different state that replaced the regular state.

In the movies (and FnF manga), Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, which made his base form slightly weaker than SSG, and apparently brought all his transformations (base, SS, SS2, SS3, SSG) on around the same level, making them useless. He became even stronger after further training, and his SS form evolved into SSB, a new form beyond than SSG. He could still turn into a SSG, but only by accident.

In the anime, Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his SS form, which made his SS form as strong as SSG, and the transformation boosts didn't change (so base = 1/50th of SS/SSG, SS2 = SS/SSG x2, SS3 = SS/SSG x8). He became even stronger after further training, and achieved SSB, his most powerful form so far, and the only current form he can use that has godly ki. He can't turn into a SSG anymore.

In the manga, Goku didn't absorb any power of SSG in his base or SS form, but through training he learned how to turn into a SSB, and into SSG on his own. If the manga (chapter 5+) is supposed to take place after the movies, then it appears that after Goku learned how to turn into a SSG on his own, the SSG power from his base form disappeared.

[ekrolo2]

In the manga, Goku didn't absorb any power of SSG in his base or SS form, but through training he learned how to turn into a SSB, and into SSG on his own. If the manga (chapter 5+) is supposed to take place after the movies, then it appears that after Goku learned how to turn into a SSG on his own, the SSG power from his base form disappeared.

Huh, I've never thought about the possibility of SSGs power vanishing from Goku's Base so it can become a proper transformation. Still, Supers manga has its own version of BoG which conflicts with the films so I'd say Toyotaro just treats SSG as another, stronger transformation instead of an amplification of Goku's base.

[Grimlock]

No. The whole concept of Saiyan Beyond God is that Goku and Vegeta can tap into their Godly ki, or at the very least the power of Super Saiyan God, while in their base fore and the anime has never confirmed that to be the case. So, no. The Saiyan Beyond God form, for all intents and purposes, only exists in Dragon Ball Heroes.

Sometimes we just don't need it to be explicit. A lot of things aren't "confirmed/said" in the main series and we just roll our eyes and assume that their respective explanation could be the case. Also, since the concept of Saiyan beyond God doesn't cause any harm, I don't see any problem if someone accepts it.

[ryan s]

They don't get siyan beyond God till around the Frieza fight where they master god ki.

There is no Saiyan beyond God because at this point SSJ vegeta would be above Super Saiyan 3 Vegito,

Episode 18: Vegeta>SSG>SSJ 2 vegito

Vegeta without God ki could already stomp anyone in Z so why does he need Saiyan beyond god?

he is already able to tank hits from SSJ3 Gotenks without it

Saiyan beyond God is the Vegeta that beat ssj3 Gotenks. As for episode 18 Vegeta and Goku are already getting use to saiyan beyond god.

I just showed how Vegeta in episode 22 had no knowledge of God ki so no they were not geting used to Saiyan beyond god

i just proved how Vegeta used no God ki during the Gotenks beat down