Does Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[miguelnuva1]

They don't get siyan beyond God till around the Frieza fight where they master god ki.

There is no Saiyan beyond God because at this point SSJ vegeta would be above Super Saiyan 3 Vegito,

Episode 18: Vegeta>SSG>SSJ 2 vegito

Vegeta without God ki could already stomp anyone in Z so why does he need Saiyan beyond god?

he is already able to tank hits from SSJ3 Gotenks without it

Saiyan beyond God is the Vegeta that beat ssj3 Gotenks. As for episode 18 Vegeta and Goku are already getting use to saiyan beyond god.

I just showed how Vegeta in episode 22 had no knowledge of God ki so no they were not geting used to Saiyan beyond god

i just proved how Vegeta used no God ki during the Gotenks beat down

There mixing God ki with regular ki and you didn't prove anything considering Gotenks never commented on Vegeta's ki.

Goku converted God ki inti his normal ki, Vegeta gained it from trainning with Whis.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the manga, Goku didn't absorb any power of SSG in his base or SS form, but through training he learned how to turn into a SSB, and into SSG on his own. If the manga (chapter 5+) is supposed to take place after the movies, then it appears that after Goku learned how to turn into a SSG on his own, the SSG power from his base form disappeared.

Huh, I've never thought about the possibility of SSGs power vanishing from Goku's Base so it can become a proper transformation. Still, Supers manga has its own version of BoG which conflicts with the films so I'd say Toyotaro just treats SSG as another, stronger transformation instead of an amplification of Goku's base.

Well, Toriyama wrote the movies, and then he wrote the U6 arc as the continuation of his movies, so I think we can ignore the BoG arc of the manga in place of the movies.

[ekrolo2]

Well, Toriyama wrote the movies, and then he wrote the U6 arc as the continuation of his movies, so I think we can ignore the BoG arc of the manga in place of the movies.

That seems a bit needlessly convoluted which the new material doesn't need any more of. It's far simpler to just count the manga as its own thing where Goku simply works to gain God forms through his training with Whis instead of the whole absorption thing.

[Tectorman]

The question of Saiyan Beyond God is basically the same as the question of the Two-Base Theory, which I've used to explain Super and have not yet come across a situation that didn't fall in line with that notion. If anything, it keeps getting supported because it's the only explanation that lets everything in Super happen the way it does.

On one side, we have:

According to the first fight between Goku and Zamasu, Goku's SSJ2 is "several dozens of times" stronger than his Base.

According to Trunks's brief belief that the SSJ3 that Goku demonstrated in their brief skirmish was some kind of pinnacle of power, we know that SSJ3 is still significantly stronger than SS2.

According to Vegeta scoffing at Trunks's view of SSJ3 being impressive, we know that SSB is significantly stronger than SSJ3.

So according to these established facts (and if anything above is an unfounded assumption, please let me know), SSB must be significantly stronger than significantly stronger than several dozens of times stronger than Base. SSB is way stronger than Base.

On the other side, we have Goku's fight with Hit.

Goku fought Hit in Base, and after some initial difficulty in handling Hit's Time Skip ability, was able to fight evenly with Hit. So Goku in Base is approximate to Hit.

After Goku went SSB but before Hit started increasing the duration of his Time Skip, there was no difference in Hit's abilities. He did not begin utilizing other unused techniques besides the Time Skip. He remained just as hampered by the non-lethal requirements of the tournament rules. He even went out of his way to act like he was powering up, just to turn around and say that he wasn't powering up at all. There is no perceivable difference between the Hit that fought against Goku in Base and the Hit that fought against Goku as a SSB (and again, I'm specifically talking about the period before Hit started improving his Time Skip). I.e., the Hit that fought Goku's Base is approximate if not completely identical to the Hit that fought Goku's SSB.

When Goku started fighting Hit as a SSB, Hit did not get immediately curb-stomped as would happen when faced by someone even marginally more powerful, let alone hundreds of times more powerful. So while Goku's SSB had the edge at this point in the fight, it was not by a significant margin. I.e., Hit was still approximate to Goku's SSB.

So according to these established facts (and if anything above is an unfounded assumption, please let me know), SSB must be approximate to identical to approximate to Base. SSB not particularly stronger than Base.

[spoiler]Not to mention Vegeta in some form of Base being able to deflect Golden Frieza's energy blast. Frieza was still approximate to a SSB. I've checked the entire manga, and there has never (no, not one single time) been an instance where a character physically deflected another character's energy blast without being as strong as that character, if not stronger. Ergo, Vegeta in (some kind of) Base was approximate to Golden Frieza and therefore to a SSB.[/spoiler]

Which is not a problem as long as they don't have to both be true. Unfortunately, they do. Both statements "SSB is way stronger than Base" and "SSB is not particularly stronger than Base" are supported by the same series and they are mutually contradictory.

Something has to give. Either we throw our collective hands up in the air and give up trying to hash any of this out, OR we pick and choose what facts of the series we're going to treat as true and arbitrarily ignore what doesn't suit us, OR we look for the weakest link.

And if we have a whole bunch of established facts, then the only candidate remaining to be the weakest link what is assumed to be true. For example, "when Goku went from Base to SSB against Hit, it was the same Base as when he first fought against Zamasu". If that isn't confirmed, then it's an assumption and therefore more subject to criticism than anything established.

What sort of criticism? Well, if we take that assumption as true, then we have the logical conundrum above. If we take the opposite of that assumption, "there are two Bases", then there is no logical conundrum. Every single chain I laid out above remains true. SSB can be way stronger than one of Goku's Bases and not particularly stronger than another of his Bases.

Since Goku only having one Base is an assumption and leads to two mutually exclusive outcomes, any other theory that doesn't leads to those mutually exclusive outcomes can only fit the source material better, even if also based on an assumption.

So that's my rationale for the Two-Base Theory. As for whether the other Base can be said to be Saiyan Beyond God, or if it uses God Ki or God power or takes on any, all, or some qualities of the full-fledged God Ki, all I can say is that, in the absence of any hard data one way or the other, the theory that fits the facts is the one I go with. Saiyan Beyond God fits the established facts. The ones it doesn't, it only doesn't do so because God Ki et al hasn't been fully explained yet. Nowhere near "debunked".

[kaioken12]

You know, I have been wondering about that as well.

And while a lot could be explained by following the two-base theory, I still do not get the logic behind this concept. That is, if there is any.
I mean, if they could just powerup their base forms that much, why would they even waste energy on going SSJ - or even worse, SSJ2/SSJ3 - at this point.
Especially since the old SSJ forms are described as being obsolete now due to the strain they put on the body and the energy waste.

If Toei actually follows such a concept, they are making things horribly inconsistent by it.

That said, if there is any logic behind these observations (base being sometimes stronger and sometimes weaker than SSJ forms etc.), then it would probably be God ki infusion in base ("Saiyan beyond God").

[ryan s]

There mixing God ki with regular ki and you didn't prove anything considering Gotenks never commented on Vegeta's ki.

Goku converted God ki inti his normal ki, Vegeta gained it from trainning with Whis.[/quote] You make no sense Vegeta had no God ki and was already stronger than SSG

all my statements proved that, not going to waste my time

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Toriyama wrote the movies, and then he wrote the U6 arc as the continuation of his movies, so I think we can ignore the BoG arc of the manga in place of the movies.

That seems a bit needlessly convoluted which the new material doesn't need any more of. It's far simpler to just count the manga as its own thing where Goku simply works to gain God forms through his training with Whis instead of the whole absorption thing.

I'm not forcing that view, but Toriyama seems to have the movies as story arcs that are followed by the new Super manga story arcs, and all of them take place after his original manga:

With the “Battle of Gods Arc” and “Revival of ‘F’ Arc” it was one tense story after another, so this time I wanted to have something relatively simple and cheerful… That was what got the ball rolling. I figured I should change up the pace.

I never thought an artist like you would come along to draw the continuation of my story!

[Nejishiki]

He acknowledges both sources as his continuation. There's no need to give one or the other higher precedence.

[miguelnuva1]

There mixing God ki with regular ki and you didn't prove anything considering Gotenks never commented on Vegeta's ki.

Goku converted God ki inti his normal ki, Vegeta gained it from trainning with Whis.

You make no sense Vegeta had no God ki and was already stronger than SSG

all my statements proved that, not going to waste my time[/quote]

Same to you.

[manwolf]

The thing is that transformations are nonsensical.

In Rof Goku and Vegeta jump directly to bluper and is mentioned that they use god ki in his base forms.

In the Champa tournament they use supersaiyan and bluper and it can be inferred that they only use god ki in bluper form.

And now they can use super saiyan 2 and 3 with bluper with no coment of god ki.

The transformations in super makes no sense and the saiyan beyond god exist in the Rof saga but in the tournament this form disappears with no explanation.

[Tectorman]

You know, I have been wondering about that as well.

And while a lot could be explained by following the two-base theory, I still do not get the logic behind this concept. That is, if there is any.
I mean, if they could just powerup their base forms that much, why would they even waste energy on going SSJ - or even worse, SSJ2/SSJ3 - at this point.
Especially since the old SSJ forms are described as being obsolete now due to the strain they put on the body and the energy waste.

If Toei actually follows such a concept, they are making things horribly inconsistent by it.

That said, if there is any logic behind these observations (base being sometimes stronger and sometimes weaker than SSJ forms etc.), then it would probably be God ki infusion in base ("Saiyan beyond God").

The explanation for that lies in RoF. In that movie (and in the series), the Z Fighters fight the soldiers of Frieza's army. With the probable exception of Roshi, they should all be strong enough to win easily, but instead, we see them fighting at close to their opponents' level; i.e., they were suppressed. After fighting multiple such opponents, they eventually needed to top themselves off with Senzu beans.

Ergo, if you are stronger than your opponent, but you fight them at their level for an extended amount of time (or if you face more than one), there will be some kind of energy or stamina drain associated with it. Of course, we're talking about Goku (as a suppressed Saiyan Beyond God) sparring with only one such opponent at a time, so his drain wouldn't be as great. But it would still be fair to characterize it as a "minor, possibly insignificant, but still present" energy drain.

On the other hand, he could fight Trunks and Zamasu as an unsuppressed SSJ2. No drain for suppressing as RoF suggests, but he does face SSJ2's inherent energy drain. Which is...

Unspecified. We know it's greater than SSJ's drain but less than SSJ3's drain. Other than that, it's an unknown quantity. Which means it's just as fair as anything else to also characterize it as a "minor, possibly insignificant, but still present" energy drain.

I.e., when faced with the choice of sparring against Zamasu and Trunks as either a suppressed Saiyan Beyond God or an unsuppressed SSJ2, it's basically "six of one, half a dozen of the other". Why did Goku decide to go with SSJ2? Because he flipped a coin. Because he looked out into the crowd and counted how many people had green hair and it ended up being an odd number. Or maybe because the drain for SSJ2 is ever-so-minutely less than the drain for fighting suppressed (not that I think either would ultimately have mattered).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He acknowledges both sources as his continuation. There's no need to give one or the other higher precedence.

Well, it's one thing to say that it's a continuation of Majin Boo arc (duh), and another to say that it's the continuation of his story.

Anyway, this isn't a canon topic.

[Nejishiki]

They're one and the same. I wasn't addressing canon, but the idea that Toriyama only sees the manga as a proper continuation. I provided multiple sources where he doesn't shy from thinking the anime is a proper sequel. It doesn't need to be literal in phrasing. You analyze the intent of statements. The main point being that it's disingenuous to suggest the anime source is to be taken less seriously. Maybe you're not going in that direction, but it feels as if you were. I decided to answer something you brought up without provocation (specifically Toriyama crafting outlines with the manga in mind and not just in general), so I think I'm allowed to add to it, even if you ask me not to.

[Grimlock]

Damn. I remembered just now that there is concrete evidence Saiyan beyond God exists. Kudos to Xenoverse!

Demigra tries to control Goku but he can't, due to the fact that Goku had absorbed Super Saiyan God's power into himself. Now if Demigra tries to control Goku in his base form but he can't because of the presence of the power of Super Saiyan God, so that means...

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]