Could the Dragon Ball Super anime be ending soon?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I'm not sure why everyone is measuring the show by episode count, that seems silly given that we know that the arcs were incredibly dragged out and should only have lasted a third of the total run for DBZ.

DB had 3 major arcs while DBZ had 4. We've technically already had 3 major arcs plus a filler saga and we're in the 4th now. Anything beyond 5 major arcs would be a miracle for Toriyama otherwise in my opinion it would no longer be a Toriyama product.. in my opinion if Toriyama is involved we get 1 more arc. Without his involvement Toei will milk it for as long as possible.

Toriyama isn't defined by how many arcs he puts out per series, I doubt he even realizes or cares about it.

It's not about the number of arcs it's the average number of ideas he seems to put together before he taps or quality severely suffers. He's had trouble putting together ideas when he was actively writing it, what's makes people thinks he has enough ideas to pump out an indefinite number of episodes of quality content? I'm just going by his usual output.

Because he now isn't bound by art duties. He doesn't even have to script fights. He probably doesn't have to write much dialogue and all he has to do is supply an outline and character designs for Yamamuro.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama isn't defined by how many arcs he puts out per series, I doubt he even realizes or cares about it.

It's not about the number of arcs it's the average number of ideas he seems to put together before he taps or quality severely suffers. He's had trouble putting together ideas when he was actively writing it, what's makes people thinks he has enough ideas to pump out an indefinite number of episodes of quality content? I'm just going by his usual output.

Because he now isn't bound by art duties. He doesn't even have to script fights. He probably doesn't have to write much dialogue and all he has to do is supply an outline and character designs for Yamamuro.

I'm failing to see the correlation between having less to do and the ability to generate new, creative ideas. Him being less busy doesn't automatically translate into him having the time or motivation to constantly come up with new stories to feed a series.

[Zephyr]

Anything beyond 5 major arcs would be a miracle for Toriyama otherwise in my opinion it would no longer be a Toriyama product.

I guess Toriyama's 10 arc Dragon Ball manga is a miraculous non-Toriyama product, then.

[TheMikado]

Anything beyond 5 major arcs would be a miracle for Toriyama otherwise in my opinion it would no longer be a Toriyama product.

I guess Toriyama's 10 arc Dragon Ball manga is a miraculous non-Toriyama product, then.

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

Dragon Ball

Goku Arc-
Emperor Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga

Red Ribbon Army Arc-
Red Ribbon Army Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Piccolo Arc-
Tien Shinhan Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr. Saga


Dragon Ball Z

Saiyan Arc-
Vegeta Saga
Frieza Arc
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu Saga
Frieza Saga

Cell Arc-
Garlic Jr. Saga
Trunks Saga
Androids Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga

Buu Arc-
Great Saiyaman Saga
World Tournament Saga
Babidi Saga
Majin Buu Saga
Fusion Saga
Kid Buu Saga
Peaceful World Saga

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Anything beyond 5 major arcs would be a miracle for Toriyama otherwise in my opinion it would no longer be a Toriyama product.

I guess Toriyama's 10 arc Dragon Ball manga is a miraculous non-Toriyama product, then.

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

Dragon Ball

Goku Arc-
Emperor Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga

Red Ribbon Army Arc-
Red Ribbon Army Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Piccolo Arc-
Tien Shinhan Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr. Saga


Dragon Ball Z

Saiyan Arc-
Vegeta Saga
Frieza Arc
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu Saga
Frieza Saga

Cell Arc-
Garlic Jr. Saga
Trunks Saga
Androids Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga

Buu Arc-
Great Saiyaman Saga
World Tournament Saga
Babidi Saga
Majin Buu Saga
Fusion Saga
Kid Buu Saga
Peaceful World Saga

Why are you trying to separate Dragon Ball and Z to begin with? The original manga was one series; Dragon Ball. It was one, big story with no major breaks. Separating it like the anime and Viz Manga does feels disingenuous when you're putting an expiration date on Toriyama's usefulness.

[FortuneSSJ]

Just to show how well the the merchandise sales are doing and how strong the Super brand is doing:

[spoiler]

Freaking Toilet paper man! [/spoiler]

They are finally giving good use to ROF arc.

Bringing Freeza back to just kill him again was a terrible idea, but they could still have done it much more interesting.
Both Movie and Super failed to bring the full potential of that plot. I would change a couple of things.

[TheMikado]

I guess Toriyama's 10 arc Dragon Ball manga is a miraculous non-Toriyama product, then.

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

[spoiler]Dragon Ball

Goku Arc-
Emperor Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga

Red Ribbon Army Arc-
Red Ribbon Army Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Piccolo Arc-
Tien Shinhan Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr. Saga


Dragon Ball Z

Saiyan Arc-
Vegeta Saga
Frieza Arc
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu Saga
Frieza Saga

Cell Arc-
Garlic Jr. Saga
Trunks Saga
Androids Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga

Buu Arc-
Great Saiyaman Saga
World Tournament Saga
Babidi Saga
Majin Buu Saga
Fusion Saga
Kid Buu Saga
Peaceful World Saga[/spoiler]

Why are you trying to separate Dragon Ball and Z to begin with? The original manga was one series; Dragon Ball. It was one, big story with no major breaks. Separating it like the anime and Viz Manga does feels disingenuous when you're putting an expiration date on Toriyama's usefulness.

Because Super is a continuation of the anime and we are not discussing the manga and we discussing the run length of the anime. Trying to use the manga as justification for the run length of an anime that's not even being adapted from a manga sounds disingenuous to me.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

[spoiler]Dragon Ball

Goku Arc-
Emperor Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga

Red Ribbon Army Arc-
Red Ribbon Army Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Piccolo Arc-
Tien Shinhan Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr. Saga


Dragon Ball Z

Saiyan Arc-
Vegeta Saga
Frieza Arc
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu Saga
Frieza Saga

Cell Arc-
Garlic Jr. Saga
Trunks Saga
Androids Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga

Buu Arc-
Great Saiyaman Saga
World Tournament Saga
Babidi Saga
Majin Buu Saga
Fusion Saga
Kid Buu Saga
Peaceful World Saga[/spoiler]

Why are you trying to separate Dragon Ball and Z to begin with? The original manga was one series; Dragon Ball. It was one, big story with no major breaks. Separating it like the anime and Viz Manga does feels disingenuous when you're putting an expiration date on Toriyama's usefulness.

Because Super is a continuation of the anime and we are not discussing the manga and we discussing the run length of the anime. Trying to use the manga as justification for the run length of an anime that's not even being adapted from a manga sounds disingenuous to me.

But that doesn't mean anything when you're judging Toriyama's ability to tell stories.

[TheMikado]

Why are you trying to separate Dragon Ball and Z to begin with? The original manga was one series; Dragon Ball. It was one, big story with no major breaks. Separating it like the anime and Viz Manga does feels disingenuous when you're putting an expiration date on Toriyama's usefulness.

Because Super is a continuation of the anime and we are not discussing the manga and we discussing the run length of the anime. Trying to use the manga as justification for the run length of an anime that's not even being adapted from a manga sounds disingenuous to me.

But that doesn't mean anything when you're judging Toriyama's ability to tell stories.

I'm not pretending to know his abilities, I'm just stating an opinion based on the previous story structure he's used. This is why I'm stating episode count is a poor measure for how long the anime will continue when it specifically stretched out his storylines. We have people saying hundreds of episodes of Super when you can't really compare it to Z where the Buu arc ran for 100 weeks! In half that time we covered 3 arcs and in the 4th now.

[Shinomori]

We know the show won't end until we get the universal tournament arc, but I truly want an arc with a time skip. I want to see Trunks and Goten as teenagers or perhaps older. I also want to see an older Pan take up Goku's mantle in being the strongest character, and wanting to carrying on that name. (Effectively taking Goku's place.) That would be a perfect ending to the show.

[Zephyr]

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

No, Dragon Ball itself is a "saga". From Merriam-Webster, a saga is:

a long and complicated story with many details

The 6 episodes that comprise Trunks' initial appearance are neither long nor complicated. Calling these episodes the "Trunks saga" doesn't really make sense.

Kanzenshuu's episode guide divides the story material drawn by Toriyama into 14 arcs, not 9. Regardless, I'm going by the more generally accepted, and much more straightforward, 10 arcs:

Hunt for the Dragon Balls
21st Tenkaichi Budokai
Red Ribbon Army
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
Piccolo Daimao
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
Saiyan
Namek
Artificial Humans
Majin Buu

...rather than Funimation's excessive means of dividing things and confused nomenclature.

But hey, if you want to bloat the number of arcs that Toriyama's original story has, then there's even less credence to the claim that he's only good for 5 arcs. For me, he's demonstrably capable of at least 10. For Kanzenshuu, he's demonstrably capable of at least 14. For Funimation....he's apparently demonstrably capable of at least 25.

There's absolutely zero reason to believe that it would take a miracle for him to last more than 5 arcs, at least if you're trying to base that claim off of anything to do with the original story's length. I mean, he has to put in less effort than ever before in writing the details of these arcs for Super (namely, he's not drawing it), so it would stand to reason that he ought to be able to go on for more story arcs than he gave us in the manga. Not that I'm expecting it, but since we're speculating here.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I would certainly agree if it weren't for the fact that you're counting sagas and not arcs.

For reference Kanzenshuu lists 9 arcs when it's generally agreed that Z had 4.

No, Dragon Ball itself is a "saga". From Merriam-Webster, a saga is:

a long and complicated story with many details

The 6 episodes that comprise Trunks' initial appearance are neither long nor complicated. Calling these episodes the "Trunks saga" doesn't really make sense.

Kanzenshuu's episode guide divides the story material drawn by Toriyama into 14 arcs, not 9. Regardless, I'm going by the more generally accepted, and much more straightforward, 10 arcs:

Hunt for the Dragon Balls
21st Tenkaichi Budokai
Red Ribbon Army
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
Piccolo Daimao
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
Saiyan
Namek
Artificial Humans
Majin Buu

...rather than Funimation's excessive means of dividing things and confused nomenclature.

But hey, if you want to bloat the number of arcs that Toriyama's original story has, then there's even less credence to the claim that he's only good for 5 arcs. For me, he's demonstrably capable of at least 10. For Kanzenshuu, he's demonstrably capable of at least 14. For Funimation....he's apparently demonstrably capable of at least 25.

There's absolutely zero reason to believe that it would take a miracle for him to last more than 5 arcs, at least if you're trying to base that claim off of anything to do with the original story's length. I mean, he has to put in less effort than ever before in writing the details of these arcs for Super (namely, he's not drawing it), so it would stand to reason that he ought to be able to go on for more story arcs than he gave us in the manga. Not that I'm expecting it, but since we're speculating here.

I definitely expect more stories in this series, since he's only writing rough drafts, and is less likely to suffer burnout. Besides, with the world he set up with Battle of Gods, the possibilities for stories are almost endless.

[TheMikado]

Ok I'll just let you guys believe what you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Ok I'll just let you guys believe what you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not even about believing, you're demonstrably wrong about Toriyama's usual output. You have no right to say something like that so condescendingly.

[TheMikado]

Ok I'll just let you guys believe what you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not even about believing, you're demonstrably wrong about Toriyama's usual output. You have no right to say something like that so condescendingly.

There's nothing condescending at all about what I said and like I said, if that's what you want to believe fine. It's not demonstrably wrong that you have the Buu arc lasting nearly two years in the anime and 70 episodes by itself not counting the afterlife and great Saiyanman episodes. Super is running at a completely different pacing level. So one of two things would have to happen, the arcs would need to slow down to give it much more longevity or the have to have a ton more storylines to make up for the rapid pacing. There's nothing wrong about that. So if Toriyama kept to his current pace in Super we would have another 5 sagas next year. The idea that someone can be spontaneously and repeatedly creative isn't outside the realm of believability, it would simple require him to produce storylines at a pace faster then we have seen him do. I'm of the opinion that him doing that is NOT a forgone conclusion because that's not how you make good art.

[Zephyr]

I'm....still not seeing how any of that entails that it would take a miracle for Toriyama to be able to come up with at least two more story arcs after the Future Trunks arc.

[saiyanvegetable]

One can only hope so.

[TheMikado]

I'm....still not seeing how any of that entails that it would take a miracle for Toriyama to be able to come up with at least two more story arcs after the Future Trunks arc.

It's an opinion, like I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not invested in it either way, my personal guess is 84 which I personally feel has more legitimate reasons than say 200 episodes because thats what someone wants. My opinion isn't going to change the episode count and it's only 84 so we will see soon enough. But again it's just my opinion, not a big deal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Hellspawn28]

12 universes can give us at least over 100 episodes to work with. They can do a whole story set in Universe 6 that can be at least 100 episodes.

[Zephyr]

It's an opinion, like I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not invested in it either way, my personal guess is 84 which I personally feel has more legitimate reasons than say 200 episodes because thats what someone wants. My opinion isn't going to change the episode count and it's only 84 so we will see soon enough. But again it's just my opinion, not a big deal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean I'm not saying you shouldn't have your opinions or anything, I'm just at a complete loss as to what's even making you have said opinion, since there's kind of literally no precedent to give rise to it. But that's fine, everyone's got their gut instincts.