"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Cetra]

Obviously you don't since you ignored what i wrote twice. Your reason is "Black does not know where it is therefore it is impossible to destroy it for him" but for characters with attacks of widespread scale "not knowing and seeing" does not matter and I won't explain that for a fourth time because I am pretty sure you also know that Dragon Ball characters can do that.

As I mentioned before, the first time Black couldn't destroy the time machine in time before they managed to escape was ALSO because they had faint ki, so it was difficult for them to detect where their precise location was. In EP61, Trunks stays behind to fend off Black and Zamasu before Goku escapes; which we can ASSUME is the reason why Black didn't/couldn't destroy it again; he was fighting Trunks.

No one ever denied that. It does not change the fact that they could destroy it any time in the future with such moves. They probably will not but if they were smart they would do so and if they were even smarter they would have already done that during battle because even a battle does not forbid them to use an explosion-like move.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Here's a question. What difference does it make if something is Toei's idea or Toriyama's as long as it's done well and explained. This forum in particular has a nasty habit of Everything Toei = bad, Everything Toriyama = good. Kind of like how most enjoyed the Kaioken coming back, but the moment it appears to be a Toei, it. becomes bad.

A lot of us have the same sentiment. I only prioritize Toriyama when setting universal precedents.

[ryou766]

No one ever denied that. It does not change the fact that they could destroy it any time in the future with such moves. They probably will not but if they were smart they would do so and if they were even smarter they would have already done that during battle because even a battle does not forbid them to use an explosion-like move.

They can't "destroy it anytime". First, Black nor Zamasu doesn't even know that the time machine comes in a capsule; so unless they destroyed Trunks' jacket or if the capsule fell out and coincidentally revealed the time machine, they have no way of knowing. The first time Black saw the time machine, it was just sitting there. He doesn't know how capsules work.

[Khin]

Because it's boring. We have to sit through sobby Mai scenes and tedious dinners. It's repetitive, that's all.

Why did you come to that conclusion ? The episode titles of 62 and 63 indicates we're gonna have action-packed episodes.

You're not going to have an episode titled as "I Will Protect the Future! Trunks' Super Power of Rage" and "Vegeta's Fierce Battle" and having 80% of the episode containing some silly scenes in the past, If anything It'll be fun to see guys like Roshi (And perhaps Tenshinhan and Piccolo) teach Goku the Mafuba.

Goku, and presumably Bulma are the only one going to the past. That doesn't really mean we're gonna see some happy dinner scenes and Mai being sad or something, especially if Goku has to learn the Mafuba from Roshi.

When you leave Trunks and Vegeta in the middle of a battle in the future, you're not just going to waste your time in the past with dinners and stuffs.

[Cetra]

No one ever denied that. It does not change the fact that they could destroy it any time in the future with such moves. They probably will not but if they were smart they would do so and if they were even smarter they would have already done that during battle because even a battle does not forbid them to use an explosion-like move.

They can't "destroy it anytime". First, Black nor Zamasu doesn't even know that the time machine comes in a capsule; so unless they destroyed Trunks' jacket or if the capsule fell out and coincidentally revealed the time machine, they have no way of knowing. The first time Black saw the time machine, it was just sitting there. He doesn't know how capsules work.

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No one ever denied that. It does not change the fact that they could destroy it any time in the future with such moves. They probably will not but if they were smart they would do so and if they were even smarter they would have already done that during battle because even a battle does not forbid them to use an explosion-like move.

They can't "destroy it anytime". First, Black nor Zamasu doesn't even know that the time machine comes in a capsule; so unless they destroyed Trunks' jacket or if the capsule fell out and coincidentally revealed the time machine, they have no way of knowing. The first time Black saw the time machine, it was just sitting there. He doesn't know how capsules work.

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

That's a BIG assumption.

[Neon Z]

Last I checked the series or arc isn't over yet, so neither you or I can't say the Kaioken will never be used again. And the Kaioken would be of no used against an immortal anyway, so why would Goku even attempt to use it knowing it will cripple him and had a high failure rate since he hadn't mastered it.

Good thing I never claimed that. I was just explaining why people's expectations of it were hurt after learning that it was a Toei idea. It's also not a matter of never appearing again, even if it appeared, it might not be in a relevant way (I mean, SSJ + Kaioken had already been done by Toei, but its appearance in Super ignored its earlier use, even though some past filler has been referenced). It's not a matter of "all or nothing", it's just something that hurts people's overall expectations of that specific development.

[Cetra]

They can't "destroy it anytime". First, Black nor Zamasu doesn't even know that the time machine comes in a capsule; so unless they destroyed Trunks' jacket or if the capsule fell out and coincidentally revealed the time machine, they have no way of knowing. The first time Black saw the time machine, it was just sitting there. He doesn't know how capsules work.

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

That's one BIG assumption.

Knowledge becomes memory. That is no assumption.

[ryou766]

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

It's not confirmed that he has Goku's memories. If he knew what capsules were or about the time machine, he would have known about the time machine's existence in the first place. Hell, he even SAYS that the mind and heart beating within belongs to the Zamasu portion within.

[Cetra]

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

It's not confirmed that he has Goku's memories. If he knew what capsules were or about the time machine, he would have known about the time machine's existence in the first place. Hell, he even SAYS that the mind and heart beating within belongs to the Zamasu portion within.

So you deny that he knows Goku's moves? Okay. And I am not saying he does not have Zamas' consciousness. Consciousness and memory is not the same.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

That's one BIG assumption.

Knowledge becomes memory. That is no assumption.

Are you familiar with "muscle memory"? It applies very well here.

[Xeztin]

Has it been confirmed yet that this arc will go past episode 63?

[Cetra]

Are you familiar with "muscle memory"? It applies very well here.

Now that is an ever bigger assumption than what you claim I do.

[ryou766]

Of course he knows how Capsules work. He has Goku's moves therefore his memories.

It's not confirmed that he has Goku's memories. If he knew what capsules were or about the time machine, he would have known about the time machine's existence in the first place. Hell, he even SAYS that the mind and heart beating within belongs to the Zamasu portion within.

So you deny that he knows Goku's moves? Okay.

... What? So knowing his moves suggests that he has ALL of Goku's memories? Are you simply tossing out the possibility that he simply saw Goku in action and mimicked them? Cell saw Goku use Instant Transmission and, without even being told HOW to preform it, he does it on the spot. ALSO, since when is switching bodies means that you'll get the person you switch with's memories? Explain Ginyu. He had Goku's body and didn't know how to preform jack shit inside of it.

[Khin]

Has it been confirmed yet that this arc will go past episode 63?

No, but it definitely won't end at 63. Unless you think Vegeta will defeat Black and Goku won't be able to use the Mafuba.

We're going to have new titles and summaries, which presumably will contain stuff beyond episode 63.

[Anime Kitten]

Has it been confirmed yet that this arc will go past episode 63?

Like Khin said, no official word. I'd estimate, if the Mafuba/Evil Containment Wave/whatever is the end, then about 65 or 66, perhaps.

[Cetra]

We never even have had any confirmation that Zamas learned Goku's moves like Kamehameha and Instant Transmission from just watching, just that he grows stronger and stuff but not those specific techniques. And why would they say so if it is way easier to say "well, he has Goku's body after all". You said it exactly. We know it from Cell that he can do it - the learning part - that way. Or even Tenshinhan and Boo for example. Not from Zamas though. You can't just say just because Ginyu has a power to switch bodies that it works exactly the same as with Zamas. Obviously Zamas is very different from Ginyu from what we have seen in his Black incarnation.

[ryou766]

We never even have had any confirmation that Zamas learned Goku's moves from just watching, just that he grows stronger and stuff but not those specific techniques. And why would they say so if it is way easier to say "well, he has Goku's body after all". You said it exactly. We know it from Cell that he can do it that way. Or even Tenshinhan and Boo for example. You can't just say just because Ginyu has a power to switch bodies that it works exactly the same as with Zamas. Obviously Zamas os very different from Ginyu from what we have seen in his Black incarnation.

We ALSO never had any confirmation that Zamasu gained all of Goku's memories simply by just switching bodies! There's no indication other than him knowing some of Goku's moves and being familiar with Vegeta. None. You're just throwing in assumptions here. Why would it be any different from Ginyu? Once Zamasu and Goku switched bodies, we know he didn't IMMEDIATELY head for Earth because Trunks mentioned that Black told him that he attacked several planets and its inhabitants beforehand; so we KNOW that Black has had time to become accustomed to his newly given body, whereas Ginyu foolishly assumed that he'd have Goku's exact strength and power once they switched bodies.

[Cetra]

You're just throwing in assumptions here.

You mean like you do as well?

Why would it be any different from Ginyu? Once Zamasu and Goku switched bodies, we know he didn't IMMEDIATELY head for Earth because Trunks mentioned that Black told him that he attacked several planets and its inhabitants beforehand; so we KNOW that Black has had time to become accustomed to his newly given body, whereas Ginyu foolishly assumed that he'd have Goku's exact strength and power once they switched bodies.

Black/Zamas is vastly different from Ginyu because even if Ginyu would have had time to get used to Goku's body we never saw Goku having this weird "growing stronger" power. So we do not know what special case Black actually is.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

You're just throwing in assumptions here.

You mean like you do as well?

We aren't making huge leaps in logic, we're just throwing out likely possibilities. You're going on saying that Black has Goku's memories, even though we've had no indication of that.