Concerning Freeza's scouter breaking..

[Xyex]

Son Goku - 90,000
Captain Ginyu - 120,000
Son Goku [Kaioken] - 180,000

Goku wasn't stronger than Ginyu until AFTER Kaioken, yet he wasn't winded. He had more power in STORE, like Freeza.

...............................................



*sigh* Alright. Let me explain something here. Goku never fought Ginyu BEFORE he used the Kaioken. Therefor, it isn't possible to get winded from fighting him. Get it?

That is after he powered up to full power, Goku wasn't tired BEFORE because he had more power.

He wasn't tired earlier because neither he or Cell was going all out. They were just warming up at first. And even later Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku. Though he still got worn out and winded because of the length and the ammount of exertion he had put into it by the time Goku stopped.

And besides that, your trying to compare a RESTING power to a transformation. Resting/supressed powers are not the same thing as transforming. With resting/supression that power is still there and accessible in your current state, it just needs drawn out. With a transformation, such as Freeza's forms, you need to transform or that power effectively doesn't exist.

Wrong, Vegeta states that freeza wasn't in his true form. So why would freeza be tired if he wasn't using his full power? Freeza fully powered up to 530,000 could NOT kill Vegeta, which means Vegeta was as powerful as Freeza.

What's it matter that he wasn't in his true form? Come on, it's not rocket science here. That extra power over 530,000 is locked away and completely unimportant when considering first form Freeza. As far as first form Freeza is concerned, that power doesn't exist. He can't access, can't draw on it, can't use it at all, unless he transforms. That means that Freeza's full power, while in his first form, is 530,000.

The part of your quote I put into bold and italics is exactly my point. Freeza's full power when he's in his first form is 530,000, and only 530,000. Hence, the fact he was not tired from his short exchange with Vegeta proves that Vegeta was less than Freeza's full power at that level.

[Phenomenol]

He wasn't tired earlier because neither he or Cell was going all out. They were just warming up at first. And even later Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku. Though he still got worn out and winded because of the length and the ammount of exertion he had put into it by the time Goku stopped.

You just answered your own question in bold. Cell was winded yet he was STILL able to fight Goku evenly.

And besides that, your trying to compare a RESTING power to a transformation. Resting/supressed powers are not the same thing as transforming. With resting/supression that power is still there and accessible in your current state, it just needs drawn out. With a transformation, such as Freeza's forms, you need to transform or that power effectively doesn't exist.

You got this so called explanation straight out of Xyex dictionary. Freeza's True Form is his TRUE POWER! it is all the same, did you know what a Super Saiya-jin is? It's a TRANSFORMATION AND a POWER-UP!:roll:

Hence, the fact he was not tired from his short exchange with Vegeta proves that Vegeta was less than Freeza's full power at that level.

Bullocks, Freeza in his FULL POWER could NOT KILL VEGETA, HE COULDN"T OVER POWER HIM. Where in the hell did you get that Freeza was stronger from? Freeza and Vegeta's clash was evenly matched, noone budged or moved.

[Jerseymilk]

Show me in my posts where I have an "obsession" over lightspeed?

I never said you were obssessed with light speed, I was merely pointing out the similarity about being obssessed with theories that have been challenged countless times and your refusal to even consider them. That is why you remind everyone of him and why they're making fun of you. Basically you're coming across to everyone here as a blind and ignorant "Vegeta fanboy".

^^^

Are you trying to be Tenshinhan or something? You keep doing this at the end of your posts.

[caejones]

Freeza didn't kill Vegeta in their hand struggle because... urm... he wasn't trying to kill him. Given Freeza's character and his relationship to Vegeta, I'd figure that'd be obvious. Freeza had no need to keep Nail alive, and he had no relationship with him other than being his tormenter... whereas the way Freeza treats Vegeta shows that he likes toying with him.

[Pieter]

There's no reason to attack 'Phenomenol', he is arguing just like all of us are.

Besides, Freeza mentiones that "it wasn't a complete lie", after Vegeta said they can beat Freeza. I'm sure Freeza knows his own power. Gohan and Krillin are surprised that Freeza is still very calm, and this is because of the transformation he has up his sleeve, as Vegeta mentions.

So we have Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Freeza stating that the three of them can beat Freeza's first form which is said to be 530.000. Toriyama was pretty obvious on this one. Vegeta doesn't necessarily have to have the same powerlevel, something like 400.000 could have been enough, since he mentions the help of the earthlings.

I'm quoting myself here because this pretty much answers everything.

The argument that Vegeta looks exhausted is a bit exaggerated. When I look at this panel I'm not even sure if he's out of breath, it's hard to tell. Besides, he was already covered in sweatdrops before Freeza attacked.

The fact is that all three of them could beat Freeza and that Vegeta mentions the help of Gohan and Krillin. This indicates he's close to Freeza's strength. If we're arguing about how close we're arguing about small details we can never answer.

[caejones]

Given what Vegeta knows about the earthlings, the power difference between Goku and Raditz, and the fact that the three of them could conceivably work as a team... I have to buy this.

[Phenomenol]

Basically you're coming across to everyone here as a blind and ignorant "Vegeta fanboy".

Oh, I state facts about Vegeta and now you wanna label me the "Vegeta fanboy." You can do better than that.

[Conan the SSJ]

Oh, I state facts about Vegeta and now you wanna label me the "Vegeta fanboy." You can do better than that.

They're not "facts", all they'll probably ever be are your opinions. Opinions you're more-or-less completely speculating on with no proper/concrete dialogue from the anime or manga backing you up. Also, you switched statements I think; first you said Vegeta was equal, then you make sure to change your view and say he was inferior-but-equal with the help of Gohan and Kuririn. Now suddenly you're back to saying Vegeta was fully equal to Freeza's first form max. I don't even wanna touch where you're getting the idea that Freeza can use latent power from forms he hasn't even accessed yet, you're calling things "facts" when they're basically just your own unproven theories of vaguely implied events, that's what everyone seems to have a problem with. When actual facts are shoved in your face, you literally pull a "superstar" and look over them as if your point of view is the basis on how we should consider all events in the series. Put your ego to bed and look at the writing on the wall, you're being pretty ignorant for essentially a very ridiculous reason.

[Phenomenol]

first you said Vegeta was equal, then you make sure to change your view and say he was inferior-but-equal with the help of Gohan and Kuririn. Now suddenly you're back to saying Vegeta was fully equal to Freeza's first form max. When actual facts are shoved in your face, you literally pull a "superstar" and look over them as if your point of view is the basis on how we should consider all events in the series. Put your ego to bed and look at the writing on the wall, you're being pretty ignorant for essentially a very ridiculous reason.

I ALWAYS said Vegeta was EQUAL to freeza's first form, my argument NEVER has changed. Vegeta stalemated a FULL-powered up Freeza trying to kill him, PERIOD. That is a FACT, yet you guys wanna say that Freeza's first form was stronger than Vegeta? LOL! when the DAMN EVIDENCE suggests otherwise. You guys make up comments about how Freeza was stronger than Vegeta when the damn manga/Anime SHOWS that the clash between these two were equal, noone moved or budged from that encounter. If FREEZA was stronger than Vegeta he should have killed his ass in that clash but did he? no, Vegeta didn't even need Crappy ass Gohan or Kurin to help him hold of an ENRAGED full powered Freeza (form 1).

So please, call me ignorant just because I don't agree with your theories but do go along with the obvious.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

first you said Vegeta was equal, then you make sure to change your view and say he was inferior-but-equal with the help of Gohan and Kuririn. Now suddenly you're back to saying Vegeta was fully equal to Freeza's first form max. When actual facts are shoved in your face, you literally pull a "superstar" and look over them as if your point of view is the basis on how we should consider all events in the series. Put your ego to bed and look at the writing on the wall, you're being pretty ignorant for essentially a very ridiculous reason.

I ALWAYS said Vegeta was EQUAL to freeza's first form, my argument NEVER has changed. Vegeta stalemated a FULL-powered up Freeza trying to kill him, PERIOD. That is a FACT, yet you guys wanna say that Freeza's first form was stronger than Vegeta? LOL! when the DAMN EVIDENCE suggests otherwise. You guys make up comments about how Freeza was stronger than Vegeta when the damn manga/Anime SHOWS that the clash between these two were equal, noone moved or budged from that encounter. If FREEZA was stronger than Vegeta he should have killed his ass in that clash but did he? no, Vegeta didn't even need Crappy ass Gohan or Kurin to help him hold of an ENRAGED full powered Freeza (form 1).

So please, call me ignorant just because I don't agree with your theories but do go along with the obvious.

How can you say Vegeta is equal to Freeza in power just because Freeza didn't wipe him out in the tussle. I believe Freeza was surprised in the amount of power Vegeta had during the tussle. However, if he was serious about destroying him he would not have jumped away and say you weren't completely bluffing, he would have attacked him while he was trying to catch his breath.

For Vegeta to have the same battle power as Freeza would mean he made a huge jump in power. I just don't see how that could be possible.

[Phenomenol]

A fully enraged Freeza charges at Vegeta. Vegeta catches his fist, though, and then the other fist. Vegeta holds him like that until Freeza's Scouter explodes, and then they break. Freeza tried to kill Vegeta but couldn't.

That is Dragonball for ya!

[Duo]

The auto-evolution evolving mechanism increases, or 'Zenkais' you speak of, whether through Senzus or the rejuvenation tank are not something that reach fruition on a consistent basis. Vegeta went from being nonchalantly beaten severely by Reacoom on a whim to grappling with Freeza in his 1st stage, at full capacity on a semi-tantamount footing, but what's even more is that Goku went from Ginyu's Inferior without usage of the Kaio-ken to being Freeza's, showing his new super state of sorts off (yet still only a fraction of his true roof, lucidly), equal. That kind of increase is stupefyingly exorbitant, but something I and others just flow with the train of thought to be of. It's not exactly a case-sensitive thing, outside of the degree of injury that an which auto-evolution may be triggered. Something as severe as Vegeta literally crawling on his belly in a curtain of blood (such as after his inaugural bout with Goku, or after his beatdown with Zarbon in his transformed state), to be assiduous, would qualify for a severe enough 'degree of injury'.

As for the entire affair of whether Freeza in his 1st stage or Vegeta is stronger? Freeza; his attitude that he wasn't against the ropes but coolly that the prospect of winning wasn't in the immediate moment is enough for me to reflect that he was the stronger of the two, but more that Vegeta was panting wildly after their grapple; hence Freeza's slight shock that Vegeta wasn't such a healthy divide from him in power. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a notable margin ahead of Vegeta, or that it was a full-effort fueled grapple on Freeza's part, as the only time he begins to seem winded is on page 156 of Volume 26 / 10, after Goku and Freeza's playful hand-to-foot combat turnout, the exasperation he had at the fact that Goku was his equal and that he needed to reach his 50% threshold. The rest of it only comes to light after Freeza sustains somewhat abrasive injury after the Genki Dama hooplah and when he reaches 100%, but at that point he was on the train to screwsville and SSj Goku was in rein of the fight to enough of an extent.

As for Freeza and his transformations? They are just that; conserving his chi through suppressions, and not transformations on the sense that he just transforms to wield more power. The fact that he alludes to and states not being able to control said chi many an occasion acts by furthering this notion. He's still holding back, but not transforming in the more rudimentary sense.

Anyway, he (Freeza) obviously can control his chi. Perhaps not sense chi, but control. But this doesn't mean Vegeta was certain of his standings. He was pompous and temerarious enough in his monotonous nature to goad Freeza onto transform. To say he was Freeza's equal or stronger at the timeframe is a bit foolhardy, by my view. Weaker in a window of difference, yet Freeza still gaining an advantage? At the least, without sounding undercut? Perhaps. But stronger? Let alone largely stronger? No.

This seems to be the only worthwhile post I found skimming this thread. It doesn't really require any more speculation beyond this, yet the arguing continues?

Here's an idea - if you disagree, then you disagree. Whether or not Vegeta's power level was 60,000, 200,000, or 500,000 holds a tiny amount of bearing over 1 and a half pages of material. Woot?

[Kaboom]

Vegeta was Freeza's punching bag for the whole arc.

End.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Vegeta was Freeza's punching bag for the whole arc.

End.

Seconded.

-Corey

[VegettoEX]

Thirded, and locked. Might be some banning in the process.