Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Noah]

That's the same thing that sharing leaks about Gohan's rage boosts against Freeza back then, without know why they happened:

Goku and Vegeta base form lost against Freeza final form, but this still happened:

Well, Gohan was always a character established to have these "rage boosts", also the first time with Freeza was back when power levels were still measurable and we didn't have to figure out multipliers and such, the second time against Final Form Freeza was filler.

Still talking about the *bold part* I find ludicrous they want us to swallow that Vegeta and Trunks can have too.

[ZombieVito]

So... With this pic: [spoiler][/spoiler]

We can finally put this thread to rest, don't we?


THERE IS NO F***** SENSE ANYMORE!

Nope. It's another rage boost just like the tittle and description of episode 62 says.

[ekrolo2]

Yeah, Super can go fuck a duck if it expects me to believe Vegeta and Trunks get rage boosts. They had a multitude of occasions where they could have gotten them in Z and they never happened. Fuck off Super, I ain't buying it.

[FortuneSSJ]

Well, Gohan was always a character established to have these "rage boosts", also the first time with Freeza was back when power levels were still measurable and we didn't have to figure out multipliers and such, the second time against Final Form Freeza was filler.
Still talking about the *bold part* I find ludicrous they want us to swallow that Vegeta and Trunks can have too.

Power levels didn't make much sense in Freeza arc either.

Goku goes from 23.000+ in Saiyan arc to 180.000 in one week, when he arrives on Namek.
Freeza second form had 1 million power level and Goku base managed to wound Freeza final form. Even after the zenkai boost he got from Ginyu force fights, that's still a big gap.

I know the last picture is filler, but still happened in the anime and no one complained about it back then. The same way only Gohan was established to have these "rage boosts", other half-Saiyans like Trunks and Goten showed to have a lot of potential.

SSJ2 was associated to Gohan's latent power when he tranformed for the first time, and in the next arc Goku and Vegeta already had it too.
I don't think it should exist much difference between Gohan, Trunks and Goten "rage boosts". The three are half-saiyans.

Gohan just stood out back then because he was the only one.
Maybe FT Trunks would get much stronger from training in the Time Chamber, if he had a better partner like Goku. Vegeta is always one step behind and delayed FT Trunks.

You're also forgetting that FT Trunks SSJ2 is much stronger than the normal, because he didn't know about SSJ3 and so he just focused on upgrading his SSJ2.
Just like they upgraded their SSJ forms in Cell arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah, Super can go fuck a duck if it expects me to believe Vegeta and Trunks get rage boosts. They had a multitude of occasions where they could have gotten them in Z and they never happened. Fuck off Super, I ain't buying it.

Dragon Ball has already well established that any character can have any given ability, if the plot calls for it. If Goku can suddenly read minds, Cell can flawlessly learn the Intstant Transmission from watching Goku do it and Majin Boo innards can defuse permanently fused characters, then Vegeta and Trunks having rage boosts shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Captain Strawberry]

I don't think show is really about power scaling, It's more about fun then serious fun. Like Toriyama made the androids strong because he wanted to make a story.

I think the Z sword is a big contributor to Trunk's strength.

[FortuneSSJ]

Like Toriyama made the androids strong because he wanted to make a story.

This is another one.
I can only imagine how much hate Cell arc would get nowadays, thinking of how an old man made cyborgs/androids stronger than Freeza-sama with Earth's technology.

[ekrolo2]

Like Toriyama made the androids strong because he wanted to make a story.

This is another one.
I can only imagine how much hate Cell arc would get nowadays, thinking of how an old man made cyborgs/androids stronger than Freeza-sama with Earth's technology.

Cell is fine because he's a weird Frankenstein's monster composed of the most powerful beings in the universe. Him having Freeza & Cold in him alone excuses his initial power, everyone else simply adds more validity do it. I'd also say 19 and 20 get away with it because of the energy absorption business, 16, 17 and 18 are total nonsense though.

Yeah, Super can go fuck a duck if it expects me to believe Vegeta and Trunks get rage boosts. They had a multitude of occasions where they could have gotten them in Z and they never happened. Fuck off Super, I ain't buying it.

Dragon Ball has already well established that any character can have any given ability, if the plot calls for it. If Goku can suddenly read minds, Cell can flawlessly learn the Intstant Transmission from watching Goku do it and Majin Boo innards can defuse permanently fused characters, then Vegeta and Trunks having rage boosts shouldn't be that big of a deal.

It is when they had many different occasions for those abilities to show up but they never,ever did. Vegeta didn't get one when Goku pissed him off, he didn't get one to save him from Reccome, or one that magically made a difference against Freeza, or 18, or Cell, or Goku again, or Majin Boo,....

Same thing with Trunks who admitted his power was actually not that far from Future 17 and 18. How convenient that his best friends murderers never pissed him off enough for him to get a boost big enough to overpower them.

Look I know everyone likes to think DB is some beached whale that'll die if we don't all lick it but when something's bullshit, it's bullshit and DB is no exception.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, Super can go fuck a duck if it expects me to believe Vegeta and Trunks get rage boosts. They had a multitude of occasions where they could have gotten them in Z and they never happened. Fuck off Super, I ain't buying it.

Dragon Ball has already well established that any character can have any given ability, if the plot calls for it. If Goku can suddenly read minds, Cell can flawlessly learn the Intstant Transmission from watching Goku do it and Majin Boo innards can defuse permanently fused characters, then Vegeta and Trunks having rage boosts shouldn't be that big of a deal.

This is by far the biggest ass pull in the entire series and yet people never complain.

Rage boosts aren't a big deal.

[TheMikado]

Well, Gohan was always a character established to have these "rage boosts", also the first time with Freeza was back when power levels were still measurable and we didn't have to figure out multipliers and such, the second time against Final Form Freeza was filler.
Still talking about the *bold part* I find ludicrous they want us to swallow that Vegeta and Trunks can have too.

Power levels didn't make much sense in Freeza arc either.

Goku goes from 23.000+ in Saiyan arc to 180.000 in one week, when he arrives on Namek.
Freeza second form had 1 million power level and Goku base managed to wound Freeza final form. Even after the zenkai boost he got from Ginyu force fights, that's still a big gap.

I know the last picture is filler, but still happened in the anime and no one complained about it back then. The same way only Gohan was established to have these "rage boosts", other half-Saiyans like Trunks and Goten showed to have a lot of potential.

SSJ2 was associated to Gohan's latent power when he tranformed for the first time, and in the next arc Goku and Vegeta already had it too.
I don't think it should exist much difference between Gohan, Trunks and Goten "rage boosts". The three are half-saiyans.

Gohan just stood out back then because he was the only one.
Maybe FT Trunks would get much stronger from training in the Time Chamber, if he had a better partner like Goku. Vegeta is always one step behind and delayed FT Trunks.

You're also forgetting that FT Trunks SSJ2 is much stronger than the normal, because he didn't know about SSJ3 and so he just focused on upgrading his SSJ2.
Just like they upgraded their SSJ forms in Cell arc.

I don't get why everyone uses DBZ Namek arc as a justification for Supers bogus crap? It was the first time power levels were really introduced consistently so we didn't know how they worked and we gave them leeway.
The suspension of belief was completely different since we didn't know how they worked. It's the same with SSG and God ki, we gave it the benefit of the doubt the first time around but as the arcs dragged on and we couldn't peg it down in terms of power the suspension of belief was lifted.

[FortuneSSJ]

I don't get why everyone uses DBZ Namek arc as a justification for Supers bogus crap? It was the first time power levels were really introduced consistently so we didn't know how they worked and we gave them leeway.

More like, nobody cared about those details back then.

You can also use Cell arc as example and try to explain why A16, C17 and C18 created by an old man with Earth's technology are stronger than Freeza and normal Super Saiyans.
It didn't make sense, but it was still entertaining. That's what matters.

[TheMikado]

I don't get why everyone uses DBZ Namek arc as a justification for Supers bogus crap? It was the first time power levels were really introduced consistently so we didn't know how they worked and we gave them leeway.

More like, nobody cared about those details back then.

Your kidding? Of course fans cared, that's all people talked about even to this day. The thing is SSJ and the story itself was so compelling that it over shadowed that aspect and never got in the way of the actual narrative.

[Noah]

SSJ2 was associated to Gohan's latent power when he tranformed for the first time, and in the next arc Goku and Vegeta already had it too.
I don't think it should exist much difference between Gohan, Trunks and Goten "rage boosts". The three are half-saiyans.

Gohan just stood out back then because he was the only one.
Maybe FT Trunks would get much stronger from training in the Time Chamber, if he had a better partner like Goku. Vegeta is always one step behind and delayed FT Trunks.

You're also forgetting that FT Trunks SSJ2 is much stronger than the normal, because he didn't know about SSJ3 and so he just focused on upgrading his SSJ2.
Just like they upgraded their SSJ forms in Cell arc.

Okay, I can buy half-breeds having more latent potential than their fathers (I'll never accept Rageta anyway), but don't you think they are overdoing this concept in Super?

Goku as a prodigy fighter could have realized the benefits of mastering Super Saiyan 2 or if we go to the route Trunks is the "prodigy" here, we can buy his base being stronger than Goku's? His SSJ2 form being more or less stronger than SSJ3? Okay! But sometimes can be on par with God Blue and Rosé if he gets angry? F*** NO! Just give Trunks a new form already! (even though I wouldn't like it) Would be good to fix some of these power level inconsistencies at least.

Cell can flawlessly learn the Intstant Transmission from watching Goku do it and Majin Boo innards can defuse permanently fused characters, then Vegeta and Trunks having rage boosts shouldn't be that big of a deal.

This is by far the biggest ass pull in the entire series and yet people never complain.

It really isn't. We could say in his regeneration after the explosion he took some recent Goku's cells thus learning the technique.

[Noah]

SSJ2 was associated to Gohan's latent power when he tranformed for the first time, and in the next arc Goku and Vegeta already had it too.
I don't think it should exist much difference between Gohan, Trunks and Goten "rage boosts". The three are half-saiyans.

Gohan just stood out back then because he was the only one.
Maybe FT Trunks would get much stronger from training in the Time Chamber, if he had a better partner like Goku. Vegeta is always one step behind and delayed FT Trunks.

You're also forgetting that FT Trunks SSJ2 is much stronger than the normal, because he didn't know about SSJ3 and so he just focused on upgrading his SSJ2.
Just like they upgraded their SSJ forms in Cell arc.

Okay, I can buy half-breeds having more latent potential than their fathers (I'll never accept Rageta anyway), but don't you think they are overdoing this concept in Super?

Goku as a prodigy fighter could have realized the benefits of mastering Super Saiyan 2 or if we go to the route Trunks is the "prodigy" here, we can buy his base being stronger than Goku's? His SSJ2 form being more or less stronger than SSJ3? Okay! But sometimes can be on par with God Blue and Rosé if he gets angry? F*** NO! Just give Trunks a new form already! (even though I wouldn't like it) Would be good to fix some of these power level inconsistencies at least.

Cell can flawlessly learn the Intstant Transmission from watching Goku do it and Majin Boo innards can defuse permanently fused characters, then Vegeta and Trunks having rage boosts shouldn't be that big of a deal.

This is by far the biggest ass pull in the entire series and yet people never complain.

It really isn't. We could say in his regeneration after the explosion he took some recent Goku's cells thus learning the technique.[/quote]

There's no comparison between this and Vegeta and Trunks having "rage boosts" as something that was never builded or established in the series before

[Lord Beerus]

There's no comparison between this and Vegeta and Trunks having "rage boosts" as something that was never builded or established in the series before

You could say that about a lot of shit in Dragon Ball.

[Noah]

You could say that about a lot of shit in Dragon Ball.

Hmm, I'm interested, care to give some examples?

[FortuneSSJ]

Okay, I can buy half-breeds having more latent potential than their fathers (I'll never accept Rageta anyway), but don't you think they are overdoing this concept in Super?

If that helps FT Trunks stand in the fight, I don't mind.

Honestly i would only be mad if we got something like a Non-Saiyan from the main cast beating Black. Saiyans are known to get stronger through anger. That's how they unlocked SSJ, after all. I can accept a rage boost from a Saiyan (minus Baby Pan of course )

Now if Yamcha got a rage boost for example and beat Black, of couse I wouldn't like it.

Goku as a prodigy fighter could have realized the benefits of mastering Super Saiyan 2

Since Buu arc takes place 7 years after Cell arc, Toriyama probably decided (or was asked to) to come up with new a SSJ form, instead of a simple SSJ2 upgrade. Buu was also much stronger than Cell.

Just give Trunks a new form already! (even though I wouldn't like it) Would be good to fix some of these power level inconsistencies at least.

This "rage boost" can be the new form you're asking for. Gohan never lost his pupils when he got a rage boost. Vegeta lost them against Beerus in Super, but got them back right away.
In that leak you shared, FT Trunks is already attacking and still no pupils. Maybe it's something different, who knows. It gives me False SSJ vibes from Lord Slug Movie.

I rather this instead of him getting God Ki from nowhere and turn SSB.
It's better wait.

[TheMikado]

Look, the fact is no one thought to leave Gohan and Krillian alone on the battlefield with Frieza, let alone final form Frieza to pass time because they would and should be killed instantly, even if they got a good hit or two in. But no, this is like leaving Gohan alone to deal with Frieza and Ginyu.

Or Yamaha vs SPC, or Chibi Trunks/Piccolo left alone to stall for Majin Buu. Those things didn't happen because they make no dang sense in the context of the narrative we are being presented with. This is not the same thing. It's one thing if Vegeta stayed around, but for FT to take on them both alone sounds ridiculous.

Again for context, characters made the logical decisions we would expect given the circumstances except when it explicitly explained why characters would act contrary to those expectations like Goku giving Cell a senzu. Even in universe the characters acknowledge and struggle with stupid decisions like Vegeta letting Cell become perfect. In Super, common sense decisions are largely ignored.

[Lord Beerus]

You could say that about a lot of shit in Dragon Ball.

Hmm, I'm interested, care to give some examples?

If we're strictly speaking strength related:
- Zenkai's
- SSJ3
- Fusion Dance
- Potara
- Goku and Vegeta's "rival boost" when they fused together using the Potara earrings

[Noah]

You could say that about a lot of shit in Dragon Ball.

Hmm, I'm interested, care to give some examples?

If we're strictly speaking strength related:
- Zenkai's
- SSJ3
- Fusion Dance
- Potara
- Goku and Vegeta's "rival boost" when they fused together using the Potara earrings

Well, it doesn't need to be just strenght related, but okay:

- Was established that Saiyans grow stronger after every battle, if I remember correctly Vegeta stated that

- We could know more about SSJ3, that's right (why the long hair, why the eyebrows), but I don't see as something that come out of nowhere since that we had a basis for this form existence, it was established levels of the Super Saiyan, Goku trained his ass for frickin' seven years in the Otherworld after all

- A new concept introduced to the series could not be classified as "something that was never builded or established in the series before" due being a new thing, we had explanations about that too

- Same above

- Is that something hard to believe? We could even discard this and just say Vegetto is stronger than Majin Boo. Period. I think this "rival boost" thing was just to add a fun fact to Potara Fusion IMO



It all that said, my point is that "rage boosts" was a concept introduced before but only for Gohan, maybe because he born with hidden powers, maybe because he's a half-breed and has more potential, no problem with that since was something the series as building up since the character's introduction. But then we have Vegeta getting a "rage boost" that increased his power largely for a brief moment without any proper explanation? We have Trunks not being slaughtered by God-tier characters and worse holding himself good against them? I would not have a problem with either these things if they're established before or we had a good explanation about it.