Vegeta and Goku's Training Regimen/Methods

Jamstar · Post by **Jamstar** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:20 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Iyouboushi wrote:Someone asked why Gokuu came out stronger than Vejita from the ROSAT even though he only went in once. I think it's because Vejita was focused only on brute strength. Quite simply, Gokuu is smarter. Vejita reached the ultra stage (or whatever it's called, SSJ 1.5) where it was really bulky and strong but too slow to be used effectively. Gokuu mentions (though I don't remember where) that he reached that stage and realized the drawback and decided to focus on something else. He was smart enough to know that it wouldn't work, especially against someone like Cell. Vejita was cocky enough to believe it would work and didn't try to surpass the limitations.
Eh, small counterpoint:

Vejita reached USSJ, the bulkier but still powerful and fast variant of SSJ1, but never displayed the USSJ2 form while fighting. Trunks, on the other hand, displayed USSJ2 and noted that Vejita probably didn't use the form because he realized it was useless due to the speed deficiency. So, if Trunks is right, Vejita did know that the USSJ2 form was flawed.

I've always been curious, though, as to why Vejita (or Trunks) wouldn't opt to follow Goku and Gohan's example and make SSJ their "base" esssentially, and the best answer I can come up with is that Vejita would refuse to follow a low-level Saiyan's lead and opted instead to do it his way. Trunks, trying to earn his father's respect, would do the same.

It could also be because Gokuu has something to protect (earth, his family, his friends) whereas Vejita only trains to become better than his rival. It seems like in a typical shounen manga, the ones who have something to protect are always stronger than those who don't.
Exactly. Sheer determination and desire to protect, while working only to surpass his limits, are the factors that allowed Goku to be more powerful that Vejita.

-Corey

Was Goku's determinaton and desire to protect greater than Vegeta's determination and desire to be the best?

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm

Jamstar wrote:
Was Goku's determinaton and desire to protect greater than Vegeta's determination and desire to be the best?

In my opinion I would say that Goku's will to protect the Earth was stronger. But, like in a lot of Shonen manga, it's not about if the main character's will was stronger than the rival's will. It's about the source of their determination. Not exactly realistic but it makes for a classic story set-up.

Jamstar · Post by **Jamstar** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:44 pm

Kendamu wrote:
Jamstar wrote:
Was Goku's determinaton and desire to protect greater than Vegeta's determination and desire to be the best?
In my opinion I would say that Goku's will to protect the Earth was stronger. But, like in a lot of Shonen manga, it's not about if the main character's will was stronger than the rival's will. It's about the source of their determination. Not exactly realistic but it makes for a classic story set-up.

I listened to Vegeta's speech in the Funi dub on Cartoon Network when he said Goku is number 1 among other things. For the manga and Japanese version of the anime, is Vegeta's speech even better than the Funi dub, or is it the same?

Also, I didn't really understand his speech. How did he explain that Goku was number 1 and will always be stronger,better?

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:50 pm

Jamstar wrote:Was Goku's determinaton and desire to protect greater than Vegeta's determination and desire to be the best?

It's debatable. The series would seem to suggest that yes, Goku's determination and desires were greater than Vejita's, however one has to figure that Goku is the protagonist so he's gonna get treated favorably by the author.

Plus, think about it: Goku was always one step ahead, regardless. Goku (and co.) could surpress their ki, so Vejita learned to do so. Goku became an SSJ, so Vejita learned to do so. Gohan became an SSJ2, and both Goku and Vejita followed his lead.

Vejita was never a real leader in terms of new forms or techniques (aside from his flashy ki attacks), I don't think he was creative enough to be, although I do think he was a very intelligent fighter when his arrogance wasn't overpowering his common sense.

For the manga and Japanese version of the anime, is Vegeta's speech even better than the Funi dub, or is it the same?

Worded better, IMHO, but the content is about the same. Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbNzG0Xx3FA

-Corey

Drabaz · Post by **Drabaz** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:03 pm

For the manga and Japanese version of the anime, is Vegeta's speech even better than the Funi dub, or is it the same?

This is from the Viz manga.

"Kakarrot...you are glorious..."
"This creature is far beyond my power..."
"No one but you can fight him."
"I think I see at last..."
"...Why I could never beat you."
"I thought it was because you had people to protect..."
"I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet..."
"I still fought to win...to enjoy it...to kill enemies...to puff up my pride."
"Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself! To push your limits! That's why you never killed your enemies..."
"...Why you refused to kill me."
"As if you knew all along I would learn to have a soul..."
"I should hate you!"
"A saiyan who loves to fight - and is kind?!"
"Good luck, Kakarrot..."
"You are the champion!!"

Jamstar · Post by **Jamstar** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:14 pm

Drabaz wrote:
For the manga and Japanese version of the anime, is Vegeta's speech even better than the Funi dub, or is it the same?
This is from the Viz manga.

"Kakarrot...you are glorious..."
"This creature is far beyond my power..."
"No one but you can fight him."
"I think I see at last..."
"...Why I could never beat you."
"I thought it was because you had people to protect..."
"I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet..."
"I still fought to win...to enjoy it...to kill enemies...to puff up my pride."
"Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself! To push your limits! That's why you never killed your enemies..."
"...Why you refused to kill me."
"As if you knew all along I would learn to have a soul..."
"I should hate you!"
"A saiyan who loves to fight - and is kind?!"
"Good luck, Kakarrot..."
"You are the champion!!"

I don't really understand that. Goku would have to fight to win. Or else he would die. Basically, what is Vegeta saying? What does bettering yourself and pushing your limits have to do with with whether or not you kill someone. Goku and Vegeta could do both.

Iyouboushi · Post by **Iyouboushi** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:08 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:I've always been curious, though, as to why Vejita (or Trunks) wouldn't opt to follow Goku and Gohan's example and make SSJ their "base" esssentially, and the best answer I can come up with is that Vejita would refuse to follow a low-level Saiyan's lead and opted instead to do it his way. Trunks, trying to earn his father's respect, would do the same.

It's either a pride thing (like you mentioned) or it's just that he never figured out how to do it. If I recall, we're not really shown what happens the second time he goes into the ROSAT. It's possible he tried to figure out how to do it and failed. Or maybe he just focused on trying to speed up the bulkiest version of SSJ. It's hard to say, I guess.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:57 pm

It's not like Goku explained what he did. He just popped out and was way stronger.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:02 pm

It really doesn't matter how hard Vegeta trained. Goku's the hero guy so he's gonna be better.
-Rick

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:28 pm

That's a lazy explanation, though. You can pretty much answer every question with, "because the guy who made it wanted it that way." Well, duh. If that wasn't true it wouldn't have happened.

zoiozazu · Post by **zoiozazu** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:50 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
zoiozazu wrote: Cell:

Ah, I believe that during the Cell Games Goku and Vegeta had very similar power levels...
On the contrary...

GOKU: hay guyz chek out mah 50% powah lolz! POWERUP BOOM

VEGETA: ZOMGWTF!?!?! O_O;

GOHAN: lol wut?

And...?
In Saiyajin Arc, a 8.000 KI Goku surprised a +18.000 KI Vegeta. Vegeta wasn't affraid, was just surprised with the power that Goku reached. I believe the same thing can be said in Cell Games.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:07 am

mAcChaos wrote:That's a lazy explanation, though. You can pretty much answer every question with, "because the guy who made it wanted it that way." Well, duh. If that wasn't true it wouldn't have happened.

That's why we have three pages of explination.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:35 am

I'd say his pride would probably have gotten in the way more then anything else. As has been said his fixated views on him coming from a "royal bloodline" most likely would've kept him from training to his full potential where as Goku simply started training without any ideas in his head. So yeah...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:24 am

zoiozazu wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:
zoiozazu wrote: Cell:

Ah, I believe that during the Cell Games Goku and Vegeta had very similar power levels...
On the contrary...

GOKU: hay guyz chek out mah 50% powah lolz! POWERUP BOOM

VEGETA: ZOMGWTF!?!?! O_O;

GOHAN: lol wut?
And...?
In Saiyajin Arc, a 8.000 KI Goku surprised a +18.000 KI Vegeta. Vegeta wasn't affraid, was just surprised with the power that Goku reached. I believe the same thing can be said in Cell Games.

I didn't say Vegeta was scared. But he was flabbergasted at just how much Goku dwarfed him in power. Goku even practically told Vegeta he was stronger.

(Been a while since I read that part, so I'm kinda sketchy on the details... But Goku was still definitely stronger than Vegeta)

zoiozazu · Post by **zoiozazu** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:22 pm

Goku stronger than Vegeta? Probably, but there's no way to say it in 100 per cent of sure. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks reached the "Super Saiyan Limit", and Gohan was the only one that could surpass it.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:37 pm

Well the evidence clearly points to a few places in the series where Vegeta is absoloutely flabbergasted by his power. Taking that into consideration the outcome looks fairly clear to yours truly.

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:32 pm

Has anyone ever heard of the 'Master Mind' principle? There's no such thing as a successful bodybuilder, multimillionaire, Olympic Champion, or whatever- who hasn't implemented this ancient success principle. It may be defined as:

Napoleon Hill wrote:Coordination of knowledge and effort, in a spirit of harmony, between two or more people for the attainment of a definite purpose.

A Master Mind is the harmonious alliance of two or more minds that create a friendly environment to gather, classify and organize new information for fast and effective implementation.

In any great undertaking, you are more likely to succeed if you work with others than if you work alone. The 'Master Mind' is one of many success principles, but is just as important as the others.

Vegeta always worked alone, pushing Trunks aside. Goku, on the other hand, worked with many others in the attainment of his goal (ascending SS2). He had them to be accountable for him, and to push him even further. That is the reason Vegeta never surpassed Goku. If he worked with him, though... things might've been different.

Jamstar · Post by **Jamstar** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:32 pm

Steven Perry wrote:Has anyone ever heard of the 'Master Mind' principle? There's no such thing as a successful bodybuilder, multimillionaire, Olympic Champion, or whatever- who hasn't implemented this ancient success principle. It may be defined as:

Napoleon Hill wrote:Coordination of knowledge and effort, in a spirit of harmony, between two or more people for the attainment of a definite purpose.

A Master Mind is the harmonious alliance of two or more minds that create a friendly environment to gather, classify and organize new information for fast and effective implementation.
In any great undertaking, you are more likely to succeed if you work with others than if you work alone. The 'Master Mind' is one of many success principles, but is just as important as the others.

Vegeta always worked alone, pushing Trunks aside. Goku, on the other hand, worked with many others in the attainment of his goal (ascending SS2). He had them to be accountable for him, and to push him even further. That is the reason Vegeta never surpassed Goku. If he worked with him, though... things might've been different.

Goku trained by himself when he was getting to Namek. Vegeta also had his family that he cared about.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:55 pm

Goku trained by himself when he was getting to Namek. Vegeta also had his family that he cared about.

Well you're kind of right and wrong there (no not by any of the stated facts, let me explain). Though it is true that Goku trained by himself, there is also the fact that Vegeta did the exact same training and most likely did not have result as fruitful and Vegeta stated himself, when he was admitting that Goku was better then him, that even with his new family he failed to get the same results as Goku.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:45 pm

Goku had better training than Vegeta did. All of those times Goku dying and going to heaven to get some special training from Gods has given him the edge over Vegeta. Hell, Goku achieved the Super Saiya-jin 3 state in heaven while Vegeta was left behind training in a crappy gravity machine.

Kanzenshuu

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