Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well when Black was telling them (I assume) about that they showed a flashback to the previous episode where Goku fought Zamasu on his planet.

Which should mean that Black was the same as that Zamasu, the one who died, except there must have been some difference in history after that fight because the one Zamasu went on to kill Gowasu and become Black whereas the other one was killed by Beerus.

[DBZ Macky]

I think Trunks's display of his "Pseudo-God" power just solved most of the power scaling inconsistencies.
One can use God Ki without going full on SSB.

---Goku's fight against Beerus---
Goku was able to hold onto his God Ki, so he was able to use almost all of God's power in his SSJ form and only a little less in his base form.

---Goku's fight against Freeza---
Using some of his God Ki, Goku surpasses an enemy beyond Super Buu.
When he uses all of it, he becomes SSB.

---Base Black's fight against SSB Vegeta---
SSR is a 50x multiplier of his base and makes use of all of his God Ki.
However, even in his base, he is able to use some of his God Ki, so he can fight on par with another God.

---Trunks's fight against Black---
Trunks has improved greatly from training with Vegeta, and has learnt to keep some of his Ki inside him preventing it from somewhat leaking, this gives him enough power to fight against the Godly tier opponents somewhat.

---Trunks's rematch---
Trunks can now use about 90% of his God Ki in his SSJ form! Out of pure rage, Trunks becomes a pseudo SSB.

Also, I think SSJG is the same as SSJGSSJ, the only difference being that one is attained through the ritual, while the other is attained by condensing one's Ki into the body and preventing leakage. This could explain why Vegeta and Trunks were able to attain this power. I think anyone can attain God's power if they are trained by Whis OR if they figure out how Godly Ki works. I think Trunks figured it out after training with Vegeta.

IMO, my theory explains WAY more than the two-base theory. Kaboom also theorized something like this some time back:

I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, either. Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat about this stuff, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...

• [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.
• [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can tap into some of his godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base, which the games and whatever label as "Saiyan beyond god" I guess. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.
• [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals. (This only happened in the manga version, but it seems worth including and could probably be retroactively applied to Goku's fight with Beerus too.)
• [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.

So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be like 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it makes his power level skyrocket to far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.

I need your opinion on this guys!

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

People really need to stop with this "2 base theory" nonsense.

"Saiyan beyond God" isn't a transformation. It's a state of being. It represents any Saiyan that has obtained the power of god and retained it.

Base saiyan+normal ki=normal base saiyan
Base saiyan+god ki=super saiyan god
Super saiyan+normal ki=normal super saiyan
Super saiyan+god ki=super saiyan blue

There is no in between usage.

[buutenks]

When Trunks raged, he went grade 3 mode for a moment, then his muscles compressed and his power spiked. You can see that Trunks body is so heavy that the ground breaks.

I think it is fpssj2 + grade 3 compressed, plus some god ki thrown in the mix.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, Goku Black is just Zamasu with Goku's body? Then why does he get stronger after getting damage? Neither Goku, nor any other Saiyan, ever got power-ups like that. They got stronger, but after they recovered from the fights, not during the fights, and these power-ups stopped after Freeza arc. Black getting stronger hasn't been mentioned in the manga so far, so my guess is that this is Toei's idea for Black, and they got the whole "Saiyans get stronger the more they fight" totally wrong.

And why does Black have his own version of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rose? Shouldn't he just turn blond like everyone else? I wonder if Super Saiyan Rose is also an invention of Toei to make Black more unique, since Toriyama hasn't made a design for SSR Black.

In short, why is Black special? He just has Zamasu's mind, his body should be that of a regular Saiyan.

[TheMikado]

I think Trunks's display of his "Pseudo-God" power just solved most of the power scaling inconsistencies.
One can use God Ki without going full on SSB.

---Goku's fight against Beerus---
Goku was able to hold onto his God Ki, so he was able to use almost all of God's power in his SSJ form and only a little less in his base form.

---Goku's fight against Freeza---
Using some of his God Ki, Goku surpasses an enemy beyond Super Buu.
When he uses all of it, he becomes SSB.

---Base Black's fight against SSB Vegeta---
SSR is a 50x multiplier of his base and makes use of all of his God Ki.
However, even in his base, he is able to use some of his God Ki, so he can fight on par with another God.

---Trunks's fight against Black---
Trunks has improved greatly from training with Vegeta, and has learnt to keep some of his Ki inside him preventing it from somewhat leaking, this gives him enough power to fight against the Godly tier opponents somewhat.

---Trunks's rematch---
Trunks can now use about 90% of his God Ki in his SSJ form! Out of pure rage, Trunks becomes a pseudo SSB.

Also, I think SSJG is the same as SSJGSSJ, the only difference being that one is attained through the ritual, while the other is attained by condensing one's Ki into the body and preventing leakage. This could explain why Vegeta and Trunks were able to attain this power. I think anyone can attain God's power if they are trained by Whis OR if they figure out how Godly Ki works. I think Trunks figured it out after training with Vegeta.

IMO, my theory explains WAY more than the two-base theory. Kaboom also theorized something like this some time back:

I'm mostly apathetic about Super's power levels, but the so-called "two base" theory (which is a misleading name if you ask me) seems to make the most sense to me. I don't know why some people are so adamantly (and often rudely) opposed to it, either. Super doesn't bother to explain diddly squat about this stuff, so it's basically open season on fan-theories.


Here's my minimal-effort way of making sense of it...

• [ NO GOD-KI ] — Goku's normal base and Super Saiyan 1-3 forms, presumably only moderately stronger than before he became a god to fight Beerus.
• [ SOME GOD-KI ] — Goku can tap into some of his godly ki to enhance his normal power, usually just his base, which the games and whatever label as "Saiyan beyond god" I guess. He can still be sensed on some level but is much stronger than normal, already trumping almost everyone from the Majin Boo arc.
• [ MOST GOD-KI ] — The red-haired Super Saiyan God form. Goku taps into most of his godly ki while still in just his base form, which transforms his body into the kinda-unstable godly form he had against Beerus. His godly ki has almost fully replaced and overwritten his normal ki in this state, so he can no longer be sensed by mortals. (This only happened in the manga version, but it seems worth including and could probably be retroactively applied to Goku's fight with Beerus too.)
• [ ALL GOD-KI ] — Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan Blue. Goku uses Super Saiyan to tap into 100% of his godly ki reserves, and even push it a little farther and stronger than the red-haired SSG form. The godly ki completely "takes over" and eclipses his normal power, so he can't be sensed.

So I don't think of it like a "switch" for his god-ki that he can completely turn on or off and that's it. Instead, in my eyes it's more like a mixture of different liquids, like alcohol content in a drink or something. Goku's "beyond-god" base form may be like 90% normal ki and 10% godly ki, but that godly ki is so damn potent that it makes his power level skyrocket to far above normal.

The Super Saiyan forms don't factor into it much other than serving as better conduits for the god-power, since Goku seems to need the full Super Saiyan Blue transformation to be at his strongest, but it doesn't seem at all to be a big 50x boost over SSG.

I need your opinion on this guys!

So the two base theory.

[buutenks]

This ep explains how Trunks was able to fight Black Rose for a brief moment in ep 57. Trunks tapped in that inner rage of his. And this ep, he unleashed all of it.

[DBZ Macky]

So the two base theory.

I guess you could say that.

So, Goku Black is just Zamasu with Goku's body? Then why does he get stronger after getting damage? Neither Goku, nor any other Saiyan, ever got power-ups like that. They got stronger, but after they recovered from the fights, not during the fights, and these power-ups stopped after Freeza arc. Black getting stronger hasn't been mentioned in the manga so far, so my guess is that this is Toei's idea for Black, and they got the whole "Saiyans get stronger the more they fight" totally wrong.

And why does Black have his own version of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rose? Shouldn't he just turn blond like everyone else? I wonder if Super Saiyan Rose is also an invention of Toei to make Black more unique, since Toriyama hasn't made a design for SSR Black.

In short, why is Black special? He just has Zamasu's mind, his body should be that of a regular Saiyan.

We don't know the semantics of Goku and Zamasu's body change. For all we know, when Zamasu asked Super Shenron to change his body with Goku's, he not only gained Goku's powers but also retained his own, and the powers just... fused or combined or something...
Basically, you could say Goku Black is a kind of fusion between Zamasu and Goku, in the sense that he became a completely different entity.

[Kamicciolo]

My figuring for Super Saiyan Rose is that since its Zamasu's mind/heart, he's using or controlling God Ki a lot more than Goku or Vegeta would be able to since he's a godly being. It'd probably unique to him too because of that reason.

[Bullza]

People really need to stop with this "2 base theory" nonsense.

Well talk of it has pretty much died off quite a lot now. If it hadn't been made clear enough then Episode 57 pretty much killed the theory altogether.

In short, why is Black special? He just has Zamasu's mind, his body should be that of a regular Saiyan.

The fact he gets stronger while being beaten is weird because they've made a point of that multiple times now and it's definitely not a thing for any of the saiyans and they don't seem to be pretending it is either. It's like he's got his own unique form of zenkai boost for some reason.

As for the different colour, the simple answer is probably that they just wanted a visual difference between him and Goku to make it more interesting. If Black just looked like Goku then that'd be pretty boring. Plus merchandise.

He's got a different colour aura, Kamehameha and form. Whatever the reason is for why he has a black aura or a purple Kamehameha is likely the same reason as to why he's got a Rose form. When Black showed up and killed Goku he did that same blade hand technique which was purple. I don't recall Goku ever coming out with a purple blast. Blue and Yellow were the only colour energy blasts I remember Goku ever doing.

Maybe some of Zamasu's Ki remained in Goku or something and it's mixing with it and making a different colour.

They did say that Black's Ki was similar to Zamasu's afterall.

[Saturnine]

How is the two base theory nonsense, again? It is utterly stupid in-universe, but out of it there's a very simple explanation - the writers of Super were probably told to bring back SSj1-3 for nostalgia's sake, but the new setup (SbG -> SSjB) was already in place, so they had to reconcile the two somehow. The RoF saga and the Potafeu saga seem to go with the RoF movie setup exclusively (base Vegeta stronger than SSj3 Gotenks), while the other sagas seem to imply quite clearly that base Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near as strong as their "Beyond God" state.

Don't call people stupid for going with this, the ones you should call stupid are the writers who made the situation this messy.

[HybridSaiyan]

So anyone can tap into god ki now?
This includes Piccolo, Krillin, Buu etc...

[Doctor.]

So anyone can tap into god ki now?
This includes Piccolo, Krillin, Buu etc...

I thought this was obvious from the beginning. Boo and Piccolo should already be able to use it to some extent.

[HybridSaiyan]

So anyone can tap into god ki now?
This includes Piccolo, Krillin, Buu etc...

I thought this was obvious from the beginning. Boo and Piccolo should already be able to use it to some extent.

I was just needing to make sure haha.
Thanks for clarifying it though.
This means everyone has a decent chance again of catching up if the necessarily rage power boost were to happen.
Bring Tien, Yamcha and Krillin back with human god ki

[Draconic]

How is the two base theory nonsense, again? It is utterly stupid in-universe, but out of it there's a very simple explanation - the writers of Super were probably told to bring back SSj1-3 for nostalgia's sake, but the new setup (SbG -> SSjB) was already in place, so they had to reconcile the two somehow. The RoF saga and the Potafeu saga seem to go with the RoF movie setup exclusively (base Vegeta stronger than SSj3 Gotenks), while the other sagas seem to imply quite clearly that base Goku and Vegeta are nowhere near as strong as their "Beyond God" state.

Don't call people stupid for going with this, the ones you should call stupid are the writers who made the situation this messy.

Base Future Trunks beats up Super Saiyan Kid Trunks with ease. He is way above that level, then he has Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 over that, which are still below Goku and Vegeta's same forms. He has also never had God ki, so there is no possible way he can have two bases (one with God ki and one without it), which means he is just that strong.
Then, there's Black who after only fighting Super Saiyan 2 Goku and getting beat up by that, managed to get a power up to the point of withstanding Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta in just his base form, meaning 2 and Blue are not that far away from each other.
The two-base theory is nonsense and always was, since the feats have repeatedly contradicted it. It's just that some people don't like how characters got so strong.

[Saturnine]

Well two bases never really pertained to Future Trunks and nothing about that has changed TBH.

[TheMikado]

So the two base theory.

I guess you could say that.

So, Goku Black is just Zamasu with Goku's body? Then why does he get stronger after getting damage? Neither Goku, nor any other Saiyan, ever got power-ups like that. They got stronger, but after they recovered from the fights, not during the fights, and these power-ups stopped after Freeza arc. Black getting stronger hasn't been mentioned in the manga so far, so my guess is that this is Toei's idea for Black, and they got the whole "Saiyans get stronger the more they fight" totally wrong.

And why does Black have his own version of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rose? Shouldn't he just turn blond like everyone else? I wonder if Super Saiyan Rose is also an invention of Toei to make Black more unique, since Toriyama hasn't made a design for SSR Black.

In short, why is Black special? He just has Zamasu's mind, his body should be that of a regular Saiyan.

We don't know the semantics of Goku and Zamasu's body change. For all we know, when Zamasu asked Super Shenron to change his body with Goku's, he not only gained Goku's powers but also retained his own, and the powers just... fused or combined or something...
Basically, you could say Goku Black is a kind of fusion between Zamasu and Goku, in the sense that he became a completely different entity.

It's looks like your theory wasn't well received as can seen above.

[TheMikado]

So anyone can tap into god ki now?
This includes Piccolo, Krillin, Buu etc...

I thought this was obvious from the beginning. Boo and Piccolo should already be able to use it to some extent.

I was just needing to make sure haha.
Thanks for clarifying it though.
This means everyone has a decent chance again of catching up if the necessarily rage power boost were to happen.
Bring Tien, Yamcha and Krillin back with human god ki

I look forward to God kaioken Yamcha.
Also looking forward to Dragon warrior God Super fused Namekian Piccolo.

[HybridSaiyan]

I thought this was obvious from the beginning. Boo and Piccolo should already be able to use it to some extent.

I was just needing to make sure haha.
Thanks for clarifying it though.
This means everyone has a decent chance again of catching up if the necessarily rage power boost were to happen.
Bring Tien, Yamcha and Krillin back with human god ki

I look forward to God kaioken Yamcha.
Also looking forward to Dragon warrior God Super fused Namekian Piccolo.

Anything can happen now, so why not? lmao.
And bring in God Kaioken Tien so they can fuse into God Kaioken Tiencha !

[Bullza]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that what Trunks did had anything to do with God Ki. There's a possibility I suppose but it could be unrelated.

How would that even work? Since when does getting angry give you Super Saiyan God powers? That's not what Shenron said.

Whatever Trunks now is will surely be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue so for it to be Super Saiyan infused with God Ki....well that's what Super Saiyan Blue was in full.