"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

But Goku meeting Zamasu can happen in different ways without Black having to come to Earth. He already hates humans, so that's that taken care of. How the two met in the original timeline simply doesn't matter. What's important is that they did and triggered some events that I will not repeat again. I don't see where the plot-hole is. A plot-hole is something that can't possibly happen because it breaks the internal logic of the universe. How is Zamasu meeting Goku a problem, when there are countless ways they could eventually meet? A plot hole would be if Zamasu never met or heard about Goku, but still ended up wishing to get his body.

The way I've seen it is Goku and Zamasu would eventually meet but Trunks coming back just triggered that event faster. The Manga went the extra mile to quote on quote "fix" this but the anime just left the details ambiguous, just the fact that the anime has acknowledged that Zamasu was on that path regardless of Trunks coming back is good enough.

Pretty much exactly that. That's how time works in Dragon Ball, events will happen no matter what, but when you use Time Travel, the circumstances in which these events take place change. There is no plot-hole or inconsistency. It is confusing, I will say that, but not that much when you are actually following the show and not just going "the writers are idiots" every other post.

Edit: what is that title saying?

That's not what happens in the Dragonball universe at all.
Things happen for reasons. Cell didn't become perfect in an unseen timeline some kind of way. The events that preceded didn't transpire, preventing it. Just like Buu killing all the people on Earth didn't happen because he wasn't released. Look I don't see why this is difficult, the manga actually goes out of its way to prevent this paradox in the origin story. That should be at least some evidence that maybe the created paradox isn't very good storytelling.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Edit: what is that title saying?

That Goku, Vegeta and Trunks are gonna fuse and it mentions some of their characteristics.

Some people going nuts that this means a three way fusion but the title just sounds odd but anyway I'm pretty sure it's fake now I know the source. Plus where would this leak even come from? We've had the magazine ones.

[TheMikado]

I think it's all a stable time loop combined with a butterfly effect of Future Trunks travelling back in time because of Black fucking up his timeline.

Not sure what that means

Basically, I believe that Future Trunks travelling back in time because of Black wrecking him timeline had an effect on the time loop, and as time loops are constantly resetting when a certain condition is met, I think when Future Trunks travelled back in time, it inexplicably reset the conditions of the fourth timeline to no include Future Trunks. More specifically, his actions of informing Goku about Black in that time. But then jjgp1112 raised up the good point of how Whis rewinding time to before Present Zamasu killed Present Gowasu may have thrown an almighty spanner in the function of the time loop. I think Whis' time rewind of that moment created a butterfly effect that lead a grandfather paradox in the fourth timeline and resulted in that timeline being altered to a degree where Future Trunks does not warn Goku about Black.

Where's Dr Who when you need him?

Whis time reset is the only logical point where the timelines could diverge so that does make sense but also makes Whis a liar.

[Lord Beerus]

I think Whis' time rewind of that moment created a butterfly effect that lead a grandfather paradox in the fourth timeline and resulted in that timeline being altered to a degree where Future Trunks does not warn Goku about Black.

But apparently Whis' own crap ability does not affect anything. Maybe I do misunderstand your thought though.

Was it actually directly stated that Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability doesn't affect the time stream? Because I don't specifically remember him saying that in Resurrection F, the Super anime or even the Super manga. Or am I horribly mistaken and just forgetting shit as usual?

[Cetra]

I think Whis' time rewind of that moment created a butterfly effect that lead a grandfather paradox in the fourth timeline and resulted in that timeline being altered to a degree where Future Trunks does not warn Goku about Black.

But apparently Whis' own crap ability does not affect anything. Maybe I do misunderstand your thought though.

Was it actually directly stated that Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability doesn't affect the time stream? Because I don't specifically remember him saying that in Resurrection F, the Super anime or even the Super manga. Or am I horribly mistaken and just forgetting shit as usual?

I might have been totally drunk (I don't drink a single bit btw.) but if I remember correctly when they talked about the butterfly effect they mentioned how Whis does not work like that. Because reasons. At least it does not create a new timeline. But of course if we are very nitpicky it still is the paradox of changing one and the same timeline, thus erasing the reason for changing it. But it is Whis so who cares.

It's as the name implies, a do-over. He isn't going back in time, he's not creating a new timeline. He's literally erasing the present and future to do things over again.

That is the same kind of paradox. You erase the initiation cause.

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?


Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

Because you leave out stuff that already mentioned a bootstrap paradox with that picture. And yes, they can exist. They combined both.

[Draconic]

The way I've seen it is Goku and Zamasu would eventually meet but Trunks coming back just triggered that event faster. The Manga went the extra mile to quote on quote "fix" this but the anime just left the details ambiguous, just the fact that the anime has acknowledged that Zamasu was on that path regardless of Trunks coming back is good enough.

Pretty much exactly that. That's how time works in Dragon Ball, events will happen no matter what, but when you use Time Travel, the circumstances in which these events take place change. There is no plot-hole or inconsistency. It is confusing, I will say that, but not that much when you are actually following the show and not just going "the writers are idiots" every other post.

Edit: what is that title saying?

That's not what happens in the Dragonball universe at all.
Things happen for reasons. Cell didn't become perfect in an unseen timeline some kind of way. The events that preceded didn't transpire, preventing it. Just like Buu killing all the people on Earth didn't happen because he wasn't released. Look I don't see why this is difficult, the manga actually goes out of its way to prevent this paradox in the origin story. That should be at least some evidence that maybe the created paradox isn't very good storytelling.

But Trunks/Black coming to the past is not the only way Zamasu could end up fighting with Goku.

[TheMikado]

Exactly, they should have done what the manga did and explain that. That's not even the problem, it's the lack of explanation.

Also where is all the hate for the anime saying all the Gods of all the Universes are dead like the manga got? Or because it's in the anime it's cool now?

[Lord Beerus]

But apparently Whis' own crap ability does not affect anything. Maybe I do misunderstand your thought though.

Was it actually directly stated that Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability doesn't affect the time stream? Because I don't specifically remember him saying that in Resurrection F, the Super anime or even the Super manga. Or am I horribly mistaken and just forgetting shit as usual?

I might have been totally drunk (I don't drink a single bit btw.) but if I remember correctly when they talked about the butterfly effect they mentioned how Whis does not work like that. Because reasons. At least it does not create a new timeline. But of course if we are very nitpicky it still is the paradox of changing one and the same timeline, thus erasing the reason for changing it. But it is Whis so who cares.

I mean, Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability, for all intents and purposes, does reset time. So you'd think that would have an effect on the timelines. I guess not. And I wouldn't bank on Whis lying like that. He's always been very straight forward and honest.

[Cetra]

Was it actually directly stated that Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability doesn't affect the time stream? Because I don't specifically remember him saying that in Resurrection F, the Super anime or even the Super manga. Or am I horribly mistaken and just forgetting shit as usual?

I might have been totally drunk (I don't drink a single bit btw.) but if I remember correctly when they talked about the butterfly effect they mentioned how Whis does not work like that. Because reasons. At least it does not create a new timeline. But of course if we are very nitpicky it still is the paradox of changing one and the same timeline, thus erasing the reason for changing it. But it is Whis so who cares.

I mean, Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability, for all intents and purposes, does reset time. So you'd think that would have an effect on the timelines. I guess not. And wouldn't bank on Whis lying lime that. He's always been very straight forward and honest.

Yes, it would be logically impossible in an absolutely logical system, no matter the explanation because it would result in what I mentioned before. But seeing how it is Whis who used it and how Black even said he was protected by the ring (which means his existence is also paradoxical instead of just something alternative or else the explanation would have been unnecessary) I think we should just lean back and enjoy the saga as it is.

[Doctor.]

I mean, Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability, for all intents and purposes, does reset time. So you'd think that would have an effect on the timelines. I guess not. And wouldn't bank on Whis lying lime that. He's always been very straight forward and honest.

It's as the name implies, a do-over. He isn't going back in time, he's not creating a new timeline. He's literally erasing the present and future to do things over again.

[ekrolo2]

Basically, I believe that Future Trunks travelling back in time because of Black wrecking him timeline had an effect on the time loop, and as time loops are constantly resetting when a certain condition is met, I think when Future Trunks travelled back in time, it inexplicably reset the conditions of the fourth timeline to no include Future Trunks. More specifically, his actions of informing Goku about Black in that time. But then jjgp1112 raised up the good point of how Whis rewinding time to before Present Zamasu killed Present Gowasu may have thrown an almighty spanner in the function of the time loop. I think Whis' time rewind of that moment created a butterfly effect that lead a grandfather paradox in the fourth timeline and resulted in that timeline being altered to a degree where Future Trunks does not warn Goku about Black.

Where's Dr Who when you need him?

That is so needlessly convoluted I wouldn't be surprised if everyone accepted whatever bullshit these guys make up just to keep their brains from exploding. I know I'm certainly weighing my options.

[Doctor.]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

[Lord Beerus]

I mean, Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability, for all intents and purposes, does reset time. So you'd think that would have an effect on the timelines. I guess not. And wouldn't bank on Whis lying lime that. He's always been very straight forward and honest.

It's as the name implies, a do-over. He isn't going back in time, he's not creating a new timeline. He's literally erasing the present and future to do things over again.

I just watched the episode in question where they talk about the time travel and the butterfly effect and Whis does state that even Gods aren't allowed to casually travel in time. So Whis' Temporal Do-Over ability is definitely not time travel.

Unless Whis knows he can break the rules and get away with it.

[Doctor.]

That is the same kind of paradox. You erase the initiation cause.

It's not a paradox because Whis (and whoever seems to be around him when he turns back time) exists outside of space-time when erasing the present, proven by how they all retain their memories even when events are erased from time itself.

Because you leave out stuff that already mentioned a bootstrap paradox with that picture. And yes, they can exist. They combined both.

Combining both is just making things unnecessarily overcomplicated. What does the picture leave out, then?

[Marlowe89]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

Even that hypothesis has a problem though - in the timeline that created Black, how would Goku encounter Zamasu in Gowasu's realm if the ONLY reason he was able to go there at all is entirely because they were investigating Zamasu because of the events that came from Trunks going back in time? Remember, mortals aren't normally allowed to even set foot on Kaioshin planets unless it's under incredibly specific circumstances (such as the investigation of Zamasu, for instance) and the fact that this is all the way in Universe 10 makes it even more implausible.

It seems that no matter how we spin it, there's an issue with the way Toei (or Toriyama, possibly) wrote these events.

[Cetra]

It's not a paradox because Whis (and whoever seems to be around him when he turns back time) exists outside of space-time when erasing the present, proven by how they all retain their memories even when events are erased from time itself.

Yes, they exist outside of space-time WHEN he does the do-over but they do not exist outside of space-time all that time before and therefore they erase their reason to erase something and that is, believe it or not, a causality paradox. Erasing the cause and retaining the memory of something that never happened is paradoxical.

Combining both is just making things unnecessarily overcomplicated. What does the picture leave out, then?

Black himself stated the ring was what protected him from not being affected by the killing done by Beerus. If they would have left out that explanation they could have been perfectly fine with a chart like yours and make him say "I am an alternate one therefore I am not affected" but the ring protecting him from being affected by the killing means that the klling normally should have affected him, meaning, he relates to that timeline.

Really, no matter how you want to twist it, it works against causality and if you do not understand that you need to reconsider causality because even a half-assed explanation like this is not consistent in a logical calculus. That is also the reason why you multiple times argued with me over the GT scene. You left out the rest of his character and statements to actually interprete what he meant at that point. Disagreeing is fine and all, but it should at least be somewhere where it makes sense with everything necessary taken into consideration. How we perceive reality works because of contextualization. My recommendation, not an attack.

[Ajay]

Even that hypothesis has a problem though - in the timeline that created Black, how would Goku encounter Zamasu in Gowasu's realm if the ONLY reason he was able to go there at all is entirely because they were investigating Zamasu because of the events that came from Trunks going back in time? Remember, mortals aren't normally allowed to even set foot on Kaioshin planets unless it's under incredibly specific circumstances (such as the investigation of Zamasu, for instance) and the fact that this is all the way in Universe 10 makes it even more implausible.

It seems that no matter how we spin it, there's an issue with the way Toei (or Toriyama, possibly) wrote these events.

This is where I am on it. I cannot wrap my head around this at all.

I normally just glaze over inconsistencies in Dragon Ball, but this one is bugging me because I can't think of a plausible way to excuse it.

Obviously there may be more revealed in the future, but right now, I'm at a loss.

[Draconic]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

Even that hypothesis has a problem though - in the timeline that created Black, how would Goku encounter Zamasu in Gowasu's realm if the ONLY reason he was able to go there at all is entirely because they were investigating Zamasu because of the events that came from Trunks going back in time? Remember, mortals aren't normally allowed to even set foot on Kaioshin planets unless it's under incredibly specific circumstances (such as the investigation of Zamasu, for instance) and the fact that this is all the way in Universe 10 makes it even more implausible.

It seems that no matter how we spin it, there's an issue with the way Toei (or Toriyama, possibly) wrote these events.

There are a number of different ways, especially since Zamasu was on the path of going evil anyway. We'll probably never know exactly why they fought in the original timeline, but it doesn't really matter. What is important for the plot is that the fight happened, not the circumstances in which it did.

[ArchedThunder]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The last timeline split happened years ago according to Gowasu.

[Doctor.]

Even that hypothesis has a problem though - in the timeline that created Black, how would Goku encounter Zamasu in Gowasu's realm if the ONLY reason he was able to go there at all is entirely because they were investigating Zamasu because of the events that came from Trunks going back in time? Remember, mortals aren't normally allowed to even set foot on Kaioshin planets unless it's under incredibly specific circumstances (such as the investigation of Zamasu, for instance) and the fact that this is all the way in Universe 10 makes it even more implausible.

It seems that no matter how we spin it, there's an issue with the way Toei (or Toriyama, possibly) wrote these events.

The ONLY reason he was able to go there at all in OUR timeline is that they were investigating Zamasu.

In Black's timeline, Goku could have had a completely different reason to fight Zamasu. Zamasu might have wanted to spar with him after watching Godtube, Goku may have wanted to fight someone and Beerus/Whis suggested Zamasu, anything. There's really no problem here, speculation easily covers it. The whole thing about mortals not stepping foot in the Kaioshin planets has always been kind of overlooked, Goku went to the Kaioshin realm a few episodes ago; in GT too.

I don't think the manga will have this "problem" since it seems Zamasu was triggered by Goku being namedropped by Kaioshin and Kibito instead of Goku fighting him.

Yes, they exist outside of space-time WHEN he does the do-over but they do not exist outside of space-time all that time before and therefore they erase their reason to erase something and that is, believe it or not, a causality paradox. Retaining the memory of something that never happened is paradoxical.

I don't see how it's paradoxical if they exist outside of space-time when they do it, but sure, whatever, it isn't very important. The point is that it's already been confirmed that Whis' do-over doesn't create any parallel timelines and it isn't time travel.

Black himself stated the ring was what protected him from not being affected by the killing done by Beerus. If they would have left out that explanation they could have been perfectly fine with a chart like yours and make him say "I am an alternate one therefore I am not affected" but the ring protecting him from being affected by the killing means that the klling normally should have affected him, meaning, he relates to that timeline.

Of course he relates to the timeline, the two were originally one. Anyway, you can handwave it as lack of attention to detail, just like Cell stating in the Cell arc that Trunks killed Freeza in his own timeline when that made no sense whatsoever.