"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

In Black's timeline, Goku could have had a completely different reason to fight Zamasu.

But that's precisely why I don't really buy it. Of all universes and all of these potential Kaioshin realms, to argue that Goku would just so happen to come to this EXACT one at approximately the same time period with AND without Trunks' time travels interfering for completely DIFFERENT reasons just sounds like too extraordinary of a coincidence to me. I suppose it's not technically a contradiction but I'm sure you can understand why that would rub people the wrong way. It's not cohesive.

[HeroR]

But Goku meeting Zamasu can happen in different ways without Black having to come to Earth. He already hates humans, so that's that taken care of. How the two met in the original timeline simply doesn't matter. What's important is that they did and triggered some events that I will not repeat again. I don't see where the plot-hole is. A plot-hole is something that can't possibly happen because it breaks the internal logic of the universe. How is Zamasu meeting Goku a problem, when there are countless ways they could eventually meet? A plot hole would be if Zamasu never met or heard about Goku, but still ended up wishing to get his body.

The way I've seen it is Goku and Zamasu would eventually meet but Trunks coming back just triggered that event faster. The Manga went the extra mile to quote on quote "fix" this but the anime just left the details ambiguous, just the fact that the anime has acknowledged that Zamasu was on that path regardless of Trunks coming back is good enough.

We really shouldn't mis what happens in the manga with the anime. Especially since the manga condense stuff for the sake of time. And although Zamasu was on that path, he still didn't kill Gawasu until Goku triggered him. And, as I pointed out, the fight between Zamasu and Goku was exactly the same as 53. There wasn't an alternative meeting or a reason why Zamasu would become obsessed with Goku specifically after seeing other powerful mortals like Vegeta and Hit if all this started with Godtube.

[HeroR]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The last timeline split happened years ago according to Gowasu.

You are assuming that Zamasu created the newer Time Ring. However, according to Black is was Trunks since the Time Rings are his sin. Plus, since Zamasu went into the future and never the past, he never created a Time Ring since that only happens when the past is changed. All signs point to the split happening when Beerus killed Present Zamasu and erased Blacks' timeline where successfully killed Gawasu after meeting Goku. The reason why Black wasn't erased like Beerus predicted is because the Time Ring protected him. So Black shouldn't exist, but he does because of the Time Ring.

Most likely, this happened because Zamasu went into the future, so by the time Beerus killed Present Zamasu the events that led to Goku Black's creations has already taken place.

[sayian_nation_]

so pretty much everytime someone goes back in time, alternate timeliness are being created?

[Doctor.]

In Black's timeline, Goku could have had a completely different reason to fight Zamasu.

But that's precisely why I don't really buy it. Of all universes and all of these potential Kaioshin realms, to argue that Goku would just so happen to come to this EXACT one at approximately the same time period with AND without Trunks' time travels interfering for completely DIFFERENT reasons just sounds like too extraordinary of a coincidence to me. I suppose it's not technically a contradiction but I'm sure you can understand why that would rub people the wrong way. It's not cohesive.

But like someone put it in another thread, it could have been one of those things that would happen regardless, like Bulma and Vegeta having a child.

[Cipher]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The only thing preventing that from being super clean is that when Gowasu opens the box of time rings, he says the last one was created years ago, instead of being like, "Oh, shit. There's a new one that popped up just today."

That, and it's not quite what episode 61 presents to us. I agree it seems to make the most sense right now without those elements.

[Doctor.]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The only thing preventing that from being super clean is that when Gowasu opens the box of time rings, he says the last one was created years ago, instead of being like, "Oh, shit. There's a new one that popped up just today."

That, and it's not quite what episode 61 presents to us. I agree it seems to make the most sense right now without those elements.

Well, you can handwave it as a plot hole, like Cell saying that Trunks killed Freeza in his timeline, or him arriving supposedly after Trunks, when both of those things would make no sense.

[Sandubadear]

Sorry for the double post but this title legit?

第066話「合体！！ベジータの誇りと悟空の怒りとトランクスの願い」!! ?

Was leaked on 2ch apparently.

So want that to be fake.

Edit-oh okay the source is Gojitaaf
. So answer is likely yes fake. Phew

Fusion!! Vegeta's pride, Goku's anger, and Trunks' wish.
Title implies a 3-way fusion, likely fake.

[Cipher]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The only thing preventing that from being super clean is that when Gowasu opens the box of time rings, he says the last one was created years ago, instead of being like, "Oh, shit. There's a new one that popped up just today."

That, and it's not quite what episode 61 presents to us. I agree it seems to make the most sense right now without those elements.

Well, you can handwave it as a plot hole, like Cell saying that Trunks killed Freeza in his timeline, or him arriving supposedly after Trunks, when both of those things would make no sense.

I mean, yeah. What the episode actually seems to give us, drawing on what TheDevilsCorpse pointed out in another thread, is that some events really were overwritten (possibly because of the fluid future the Kaioshin can access with time rings; Zamasu was traveling a year or two into the future to carry out his plans), but that entering Trunks' timeline prevented Black-Zamasu from being affected.

It doesn't quite mesh with the way time-travel is presented in the rest of the series, nor does it give us an explanation for why Goku and Zamasu end up fighting (reasons could certainly exist, but an explanation or at least an acknowledgement that circumstances were different seems due). While it's a little happier than the multiple timeline theory, in that there isn't a world hanging around in which Goku's entire family was killed, it's nowhere near as clean as that timeline split would be.

I'm kind of shocked that we even have to have a "you can handwave it as a plot hole" discussions when the series isn't plotted on a weekly basis as the manga was. I have a feeling Toriyama actually had a pretty clear model for things, and Super's just really badly handled it.

(By the way, not sure if that's your diagram, but it's "wreak havoc," in case you want to edit it for future use.)

[TheMikado]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The only thing preventing that from being super clean is that when Gowasu opens the box of time rings, he says the last one was created years ago, instead of being like, "Oh, shit. There's a new one that popped up just today."

That, and it's not quite what episode 61 presents to us. I agree it seems to make the most sense right now without those elements.

Well, you can handwave it as a plot hole, like Cell saying that Trunks killed Freeza in his timeline, or him arriving supposedly after Trunks, when both of those things would make no sense.

But the initial scenario proposed is to plug a plot hole, the point of plugging a plot hole is so that you don't create new ones as well. If they said that's what happened in a future episode though I wouldn't mind it because at least it's something.

[TheMikado]

The only thing preventing that from being super clean is that when Gowasu opens the box of time rings, he says the last one was created years ago, instead of being like, "Oh, shit. There's a new one that popped up just today."

That, and it's not quite what episode 61 presents to us. I agree it seems to make the most sense right now without those elements.

Well, you can handwave it as a plot hole, like Cell saying that Trunks killed Freeza in his timeline, or him arriving supposedly after Trunks, when both of those things would make no sense.

I mean, yeah. What the episode actually seems to give us, drawing on what TheDevilsCorpse pointed out in another thread, is that some events really were overwritten (possibly because of the fluid future the Kaioshin can access with time rings; Zamasu was traveling a year or two into the future to carry out his plans), but that entering Trunks' timeline prevented Black-Zamasu from being affected.

It doesn't quite mesh with the way time-travel is presented in the rest of the series, nor does it give us an explanation for why Goku and Zamasu end up fighting (reasons could certainly exist, but an explanation or at least an acknowledgement that circumstances were different seems due). While it's a little happier than the multiple timeline theory, in that there isn't a world hanging around in which Goku's entire family was killed, it's nowhere near as clean as that timeline split would be.

I'm kind of shocked that we even have to have a "you can handwave it as a plot hole" discussions when the series isn't plotted on a weekly basis as the manga was. I have a feeling Toriyama actually had a pretty clear model for things, and Super's just really badly handled it.

(By the way, not sure if that's your diagram, but it's "wreak havoc," in case you want to edit it for future use.)

I agree, like I said the manga has really set itself up to avoid some of these holes. They aren't huge but they're enough make you go huh?

[Grimlock]

Title implies a 3-way fusion, likely fake.

Well, if you're calling it fake just because it's a "3-way fusion", then probably not. As Toriyama confirmed Metamoran fusion can be performed by more people than just two.

[Sandubadear]

Title implies a 3-way fusion, likely fake.

Well, if you're calling it fake just because it's a "3-way fusion", then probably not. As Toriyama confirmed Metamoran fusion can be performed by more people than just two.

Indeed, had totally forgotten that. But still, Trunks has never heard of fusion, he wouldn't be able to do it so quickly.

[precita]

You guys are overthinking things. There's multiple timelines everytime someone goes back in time, that's all there is to it.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Title implies a 3-way fusion, likely fake.

Well, if you're calling it fake just because it's a "3-way fusion", then probably not. As Toriyama confirmed Metamoran fusion can be performed by more people than just two.

Indeed, had totally forgotten that. But still, Trunks has never heard of fusion, he wouldn't be able to do it so quickly.

(Kid)Trunks and Goten learned fusion pretty fast and in movie 12 Vegeta learned it even faster so Trunks got this If the "leak" is true.

[Sandubadear]

Well, if you're calling it fake just because it's a "3-way fusion", then probably not. As Toriyama confirmed Metamoran fusion can be performed by more people than just two.

Indeed, had totally forgotten that. But still, Trunks has never heard of fusion, he wouldn't be able to do it so quickly.

(Kid)Trunks and Goten learned fusion pretty fast and in movie 12 Vegeta learned it even faster so Trunks got this If the "leak" is true.

The kids took a few hours to learn, and even then it took several tries to get the fusion right. Movies and GT don't matter. They can't afford to make a mistake at a critical hour like this.

[Grimlock]

Vegeta already knows the poses of the fusion dance.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Goku is the only one who knows the dance. He'll have to teach it to both Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks who remember is in the future. The only way a three way fusion will be possible is via Portara somehow.

Herms pointed out that the episode is almost word for word with a Z one and just added "The Dream of Trunks bit". Title just doesn't sound right at all.

I am so vehemently against fusion but hey I didn't think they could make Future Trunks coming back or an "Evil Goku" work and I was clearly wrong so by the small chance it is true I'm gonna wait and see how it pans out.

Vegeta already knows the poses of the fusion dance.

He may know it but he's never tried or practised it.

I know what god art looks like doesn't mean I can produce good art.

[Sandubadear]

It's still possible that the fusion will really happen because of the mystery Super Heroes card. Heroes already spoiled us the Babari-jins, after all (not that they're as important as a Vegeta-Trunks-Goku fusion, but still).
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku is the only one who knows the dance. He'll have to teach it to both Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks who remember is in the future. The only way a three way fusion will be possible is via Portara somehow.

I think Old Kaioshin said that you can only do a Potara fusion "once". It probably means that a Potara fusion can't fuse with someone else (Vegetto wouldn't be able to fuse with Trunks, for example).

[Xeztin]

Guys, why are you overcomplicating things when the most plausible explanation is the easiest one?



Time loops can't exist in Dragon Ball.

The last timeline split happened years ago according to Gowasu.

You are assuming that Zamasu created the newer Time Ring. However, according to Black is was Trunks since the Time Rings are his sin. Plus, since Zamasu went into the future and never the past, he never created a Time Ring since that only happens when the past is changed. All signs point to the split happening when Beerus killed Present Zamasu and erased Blacks' timeline where successfully killed Gawasu after meeting Goku. The reason why Black wasn't erased like Beerus predicted is because the Time Ring protected him. So Black shouldn't exist, but he does because of the Time Ring.

Most likely, this happened because Zamasu went into the future, so by the time Beerus killed Present Zamasu the events that led to Goku Black's creations has already taken place.

I agree with this completely, Beerus (because he is a God) assumed all Zamasu's should be dead (Which they should have been) but by the time Beerus killed Zamasu (1) I believe Zamasu (2) already became Black and was into Zamasu (3's) (Or Future Trunks') Timeline by the time Beerus killed Zamasu (1). In other words I believe it happened in this order:
Zamasu (2) Became Black went into Zamasu's (3) Timeline.
Zamasu (3) Became immortal and wrecked havok along side Zamasu (2) in the Future Timeline which also is where Trunks lived.
Trunks went back into time to ask for Goku's help.
Beerus killed Zamasu (1) but because the events above already happened, Black wasn't in his original timeline because of the Time Ring so it probably didn't effect him since he basically wasn't there to exist in his timeline and Zamasu (3) was already immortal so he couldn't die from it.

I think its safe to assume that if Trunks never went back into time back in the Cell saga, the ring wouldn't have existed nor would Black have hated mortals so much. For some reason Black or Zamasu (2) (which ever you prefer) beat everyone to the punch in his timeline, he might have met Goku through our timelines Kai's since we saw them sparing with Zamasu (1) and it looked like they done it on a regular basis. Also Trunks never came back in this timeline because Black didn't yet exist so he had no reason too. I'm guessing Kibito lost against Zamasu and probably mentioned Goku's help in defeating Boo and Zamasu (2) asked to see and spar with Goku since he couldn't believe it.