Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that what Trunks did had anything to do with God Ki. There's a possibility I suppose but it could be unrelated.

How would that even work? Since when does getting angry give you Super Saiyan God powers? That's not what Shenron said.

Whatever Trunks now is will surely be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue so for it to be Super Saiyan infused with God Ki....well that's what Super Saiyan Blue was in full.

Since when does simple training give you Super Saiyan God powers? That's not what Shenlong said either, and yet...

[DBZ Macky]

Haha, I'm just trying to make sense of the power scaling guys.
It seems that you guys are alright with Trunks reaching above Super Vegetto's level without any canon explanation.
Well, I guess we just had it coming after Freeza got to the same level by... torturing his subordinates... for 4 MONTHS!!
Then we have Tagoma becoming stronger than Piccolo while he was earlier just at Zarbon's level.

At least they had Zenkai and Fusion back in the day, now it's just everyone suddenly discovering that they're prodigies and can now get rage boosts when before they were only exclusive to Gohan.

[PsionicWarrior]

Haha, I'm just trying to make sense of the power scaling guys.

Omg why would you want to torture yourself that much, simply don't lol

[TheMikado]

Haha, I'm just trying to make sense of the power scaling guys.
It seems that you guys are alright with Trunks reaching above Super Vegetto's level without any canon explanation.
Well, I guess we just had it coming after Freeza got to the same level by... torturing his subordinates... for 4 MONTHS!!
Then we have Tagoma becoming stronger than Piccolo while he was earlier just at Zarbon's level.

At least they had Zenkai and Fusion back in the day, now it's just everyone suddenly discovering that they're prodigies and can now get rage boosts when before they were only exclusive to Gohan.

Basically nailed it. It's par for the course now. I just hope it's not a rage boost SSG cause then we will really see we that we have no idea how God powers work.

[DBZ Macky]

Haha, I'm just trying to make sense of the power scaling guys.

Omg why would you want to torture yourself that much, simply don't lol

Is it really impossible
To quote Trunks: " I won't know unless I try".
Besides, isn't it us guys trying make sense of the power scaling the reason this thread has almost 450 pages.

What route would you prefer, if you were to make a battle power list for Super?

[Draconic]

Haha, I'm just trying to make sense of the power scaling guys.

Omg why would you want to torture yourself that much, simply don't lol

Is it really impossible
To quote Trunks: " I won't know unless I try".
Besides, isn't it us guys trying make sense of the power scaling the reason this thread has almost 450 pages.

What route would you prefer, if you were to make a battle power list for Super?

Just so you don't think I am an asshole, I will try to give you my take on the battle powers, with arguments from the show, not pulling stuff out of nowhere, like what the two-base theory is proposing.

In the BoG saga, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God power in his regular Super Saiyan form. It's then safe to say that his base form would be weaker than that, but still stronger than everything that came before it, as base Goku manages to destroy Beerus' blast, which SSJ3 Goku before that could never have. Vegeta due to training with Whis manages to get to that base level as well.
Then, in the RoF saga, Base Gohan is show to be stronger than Piccolo, so he is at least as strong as his Cell arc power in just base. Due to lack of training, he can't access his full Ultimate state, without going Super Saiyan. Base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him even in that form. Going Super Saiyan Blue, the two reach a level stronger than Super Saiyan God, which is supported by the fact that Blue is stronger than Goku's regular Super Saiyan, which we saw was on God's level.
By the Universe 6 arc, we see that Piccolo might have reached Goku and Vegeta's base level, which is the main point of contention. It's because of that the two base theory gained traction. However, prior to the tournament we see Piccolo dominating Gohan in one of their sparring matches. The way Gohan is drawn in that scene and the fact he isn't using Super Saiyan even though he is getting his ass kicked seems to point towards he regaining his Ultimate powers. This is why Piccolo got around that power, by training with Ultimate Gohan.
Then, in the current arc, Trunks is shown to be around the same level as Goku, in the same forms. He is also shown to be stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks in his base form. In the Copy-Vegeta arc, base Copy-Vegeta was shown to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, which appears to be consistent with what we see here. The base saiyans are stronger than Buu arc levels. This is also supported by Super Saiyan 2 Trunks holding his own against Black on numerous ocassions, who at his weakest in his base form was as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku (who, again, is stronger than the high end Buu arc characters). How did Trunks get so strong? Well, simple. He fought Black for at least a year before deciding to come back to the past and, going to Toriyama himself, that's how Saiyans grow in power.

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

What this means is that in the Saiayns' base forms and Piccolo are high end Buu arc tier, Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are as strong as BoG Super Saiyan God, with Trunks a little behind, Super Saiyan 2's, Black's base, Zamasu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku are stronger than God, but weaker than Blue, with Rose being as of now the highest level of power.

Things make sense and are consistent within the show, without needing to make baseless assumptions like characters having another base form, since they don't seem to ever use it. If that base was stronger than SSJ2 and 3, it makes no sense why they wouldn't use that when trying to battle, but are fighting at low end Buu saga levels instead.

[Bullza]

Since when does simple training give you Super Saiyan God powers? That's not what Shenlong said either, and yet...

Well that's true but at least with Vegeta he did have training from Whis who has God powers so probably taught him how to access it.

Watching the scene again it does sorta look Godish, you can see the aura bubbles which the God forms have but how could it be a Super Saiyan mixed with Blue's powers when Blue is supposed to be Super Saiyan mixed with God powers.

Hopefully they explain what it is because I don't have a clue.

What route would you prefer, if you were to make a battle power list for Super?

I'd just do a ranking and place them in order of strenght. I wouldn't even bother to try to put any numbers to anything because that's when it becomes a problem.

Just ranking them by power is fairly straightforward.

[buutenks]

I doubt Trunks is an incomplete ssj blue. Why would he lack pupils? Or why would his hair be bigger and spikier than usual? Seems to me its a form combining grade 3 with ssj2, and compressing the muscles, so they dont reduce speed. That is why Trunks was so heavy that the ground broke, but had no visual muscle increase.

As for power levels. Here r my thoughts:

Omni-king
2 Guards
2 unknown beings
High Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
Hit
kkx10 ssj blue Goku
Black Rose
Enraged ssj blue Goku/Super Trunks
ssj blue Goku/Vegeta
Golden Freeza
Super Saiyan God
ssj3 Goku/ssj3 Vegetto
FPssj2 Trunks/ssj2 Vegetto
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta/ssj1 Vegetto
Future Zamasu/Present Zamasu
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta/Magetta
ssj1 Trunks
FF Frost
Base Goku/Vegeta/Assault Form Frost
Final Form Freeza/Buuhan
Base Trunks/Piccolo(u6 tournament)/Mystic Gohan/DBS Gohan(after training with Piccolo)
ssj3 Gotenks
First Form Freeza
ssj Gohan(ROF arc)
ssj Gotenks
Tagoma/Super Perfect Cell
Base Gohan
Piccolo(Rof arc)

I believe that Goku can only tap in the god ki when going ssj blue. So his base and ssj forms are super strong due to Whis' training and absorbing the god power.

Especially when in the rof arc, it is only said that super saiyan god has been surpassed when Goku transforms into ssj blue. Nothing is mentioned when he is in base form or any other ssj form.

So that is my head canon.

[DBZ Macky]

Omni-king
2 Guards
2 unknown beings

Wouldn't that make the Daishinkan the 6th and not the 5th in power?
Also, what makes you think that the Guards are above Whis and Daishinkan when Goku felt the need to comment on Daishinkan's power but not the guards's?

Other than that, you're list is actually excellent.
I'd like to hear what the other members think about it.

[Draconic]

Very good list, buutenks! But you forgot about Cabba. I would put his base form around SSJ3 Gotenks and his Super Saiyan form around Final Form Frost. The only thing I am iffy about are Zeno's guards, since we don't really know anything about them.

[Bullza]

This is my updated version of this list as of the current episode.

God Tier

Zeno

Top Tier

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

Super Enraged Trunks
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Zamasu
Golden Frieza
Hit (Without Timeskip)
Black (Could be several places higher)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (start of this saga)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Base Tier

Trunks
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frieza
Assault Frost

DBZ Tier

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frost
First Form Frieza
Majin Buu

Useless Tier

Super Saiyan Gohan
Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma

[omaro34]

Do you guys think Trunks' new form is stronger than Goku and Vegeta now? Why else would they leave him and go back to the past?

[DBZ Macky]

ssj Gohan(ROF arc)
ssj Gotenks
Tagoma/Super Perfect Cell
Base Gohan
Piccolo(Rof arc)

SSJ Gohan > SSJ Gotenks.
How? Why?

Do you guys think Trunks' new form is stronger than Goku and Vegeta now? Why else would they leave him and go back to the past?

Absolutely! I think it's 'cause they can't defeat Black's OP ability and Zamasu's immortality. So they go back to the past to get help from "Someone".

[buutenks]

Very good list, buutenks! But you forgot about Cabba. I would put his base form around SSJ3 Gotenks and his Super Saiyan form around Final Form Frost. The only thing I am iffy about are Zeno's guards, since we don't really know anything about them.

Hmm, i knew i was forgetting someone. But seems about right, tho id place ssj Cabba above FF Frost, but below ssj1 Goku/Vegeta and Magetta

Wouldn't that make the Daishinkan the 6th and not the 5th in power?
Also, what makes you think that the Guards are above Whis and Daishinkan when Goku felt the need to comment on Daishinkan's power but not the guards's?

Other than that, you're list is actually excellent.
I'd like to hear what the other members think about it.

I think that the omni king isnt a fighter, so when Whis said top 5, he didnt have the omni king in mind. Also, i placed them at the top of top 5 fighters because they are the guards. Wouldnt make much sense to have guards that are weaker than your priest.

SSJ Gohan > SSJ Gotenks.
How? Why?

Because, ssj Gohan 2 shoted a full power Tagoma, while ssj Gotenks failed to defeat a non full power Tagoma after hitting him in the crotch. So i place ssj Gohan slightly higher than ssj Gotenks.

This is my updated version of this list as of the current episode.

God Tier

Zeno

Top Tier

Grand Priest
Whis/Vados
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

Super Enraged Trunks
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Zamasu
Golden Frieza
Hit (Without Timeskip)
Black (Could be several places higher)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (start of this saga)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Base Tier

Trunks
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Super Saiyan God Goku
Final Form Frieza
Assault Frost

DBZ Tier

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
First Form Frost
First Form Frieza
Majin Buu

Useless Tier

Super Saiyan Gohan
Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma

Lol, useless tier. Hehe, funny.

Id place Zamasu at below Golden Freeza tbh. Actually id place him in super saiyan tier since while he does seem to put a good fight, i think its more to do with his immortality, rather than his BP. Especially since ssj2 Trunks was able to over power him in ep 57, while he is fodder to ssj blue and Black Rose.

And, seems to me base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Trunks, same for ssj1. ssj2 is stronger i believe because Trunks somehow mastered it, since he can raise his power while a ssj2.

But other than that, i agree with the list.

[ZombieVito]

So, Goku Black is just Zamasu with Goku's body? Then why does he get stronger after getting damage? Neither Goku, nor any other Saiyan, ever got power-ups like that. They got stronger, but after they recovered from the fights, not during the fights, and these power-ups stopped after Freeza arc. Black getting stronger hasn't been mentioned in the manga so far, so my guess is that this is Toei's idea for Black, and they got the whole "Saiyans get stronger the more they fight" totally wrong.

And why does Black have his own version of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rose? Shouldn't he just turn blond like everyone else? I wonder if Super Saiyan Rose is also an invention of Toei to make Black more unique, since Toriyama hasn't made a design for SSR Black.

In short, why is Black special? He just has Zamasu's mind, his body should be that of a regular Saiyan.

It really isn't since not only his aura and transformation are different but he can also use the time ring.

Speaking of transformations, what multiplier do you guys think Super Saiyan Rose has?

[Bullza]

Zamasu is a bit tricky to place because of his immortality.

He lost to SSJ2 Goku several episodes back but then after in the episode where he died he said he was distressed and could have done better so that might mean too much.

When he fought SSJB Goku he was able to keep up with him just fine and withstand his kicks whereas Cabba was blitzed and Trunks was quickly overwhelmed by Vegeta.

However Trunks would have killed him had he not been immortal but then Trunks is pretty much up there with them too.

He could be below Frieza...dunno about below Hit though. Base Black could be stronger than all three. I do think Black, Zamasu, Frieza and Hit are all relatively close though.

[buutenks]

Idk, i think he did so well due to his immortality and him being a skilled fighter. Power wise, he is below ssj blue, since ssj2 Trunks was able to over power him.

As for Hit, Hit took hits from kkx10 ssj blue Goku and survived so he can definitely take on Black Rose and hold his own very well.

But, if Hit ever fought Black Rose, i assume, he would lose, since i doubt he can kill him in one punch or 2, so Black would simply become stronger than Hit. But then, Hit would improve even further. Lol might be a never ending battle lol.

But vs Zamasu, ye he cant really do diddly squat to him.

[ZombieVito]

Idk, i think he did so well due to his immortality and him being a skilled fighter. Power wise, he is below ssj blue, since ssj2 Trunks was able to over power him.

As for Hit, Hit took hits from kkx10 ssj blue Goku and survived so he can definitely take on Black Rose and hold his own very well.

But, if Hit ever fought Black Rose, i assume, he would lose, since i doubt he can kill him in one punch or 2, so Black would simply become stronger than Hit. But then, Hit would improve even further. Lol might be a never ending battle lol.

But vs Zamasu, ye he cant really do diddly squat to him.

I'm starting to think the same. It's not crazy to think Zamasu hold it's own against SSB Goku because of his immortality.

[Bullza]

Immortality should only get him so far. An immortal Krillin wouldn't be able to hold his own against Goku.

He has comparable speed. He's got the strenght to block his attacks and knock Goku flying towards the ground.. He has enough fire power that Goku felt the need to dodge his blasts.

Besides just because he's immortal and can't die doesn't mean he shouldn't have been knocked out or something.

[Doctor.]

Zamasu got destroyed by Trunks. His powerlevel is very inconsistent. I'd say he's still a weakling.