This franchise has become a joke now

[Cipher]

I've personally never been of the belief that "If you don't like it, don't watch/read it" is a valid dismissal of criticism. It ignores the idea that people can like something enough to want it to be better.

What does get tiresome is reading the same criticisms repeatedly, or encountering ones that seem contradictory to the series' goals. I could read calm discussions about Super's direction, animation, or broader writing endlessly, and we do see criticism in those areas from people who genuinely want it to be better and can express themselves reasonably. It's complaints along the lines of "X character doesn't get to do X!" or "The series used to be good and now it's bad because of X superficial reasons!" that aren't worth anyone's time.

On that note, perhaps it's worth establishing some connotative distinction between "criticism" and "complaint." There are plenty of disparaging comments that seek to understand and discuss potential problems, and there are those that represent kneejerk reactions uninviting to further responses. Guess which ones I'd rather never read again.

[Metalwario64]

I've personally never been of the belief that "If you don't like it, don't watch/read it" is a valid dismissal of criticism. It ignores the idea that people can like something enough to want it to be better.

I agree, and this is somewhat off topic, but since you mentioned that, I just wanted to say that I utterly detest the "argument" that if you don't like something, you can't criticize it unless you're capable of producing something better yourself.

[Cipher]

I agree, and this is somewhat off topic, but since you mentioned that, I just wanted to say that I utterly detest the "argument" that if you don't like something, you can't criticize it unless you're capable of producing something better yourself.

Well, yes. That's absurd as well. No artist seeks reactions strictly from other artists.

We could get into a whole discussion about the role accessibility plays in art, and when it's okay to tell your audience to fuck off (because sometimes it absolutely is), but the bottom line is that everyone has a potential audience they hope their work affects and which largely exists outside their craft's field.

That's also not to validate every criticism that could be lobbed at a piece without proper context or knowledge of the craft. But we're talking about things well outside of Dragon Ball now. Its goals are pretty simple: It seeks to excite and amuse (an audience of Japanese children, to be more specific). Those aren't as simple as they sound, and there's a hell of a lot more it can do, but they're fair starting points for judging whether it's working in terms of your immediate reactions.

That said, simply examining your reactions to the point of "I am not excited. I am not amused. I don't like (whatever)" doesn't yet warrant putting digital ink to virtual paper and sending words into the ether for others to read. If you want to start a conversation about how this series does or doesn't work, go further. Or go to outlets like YouTube and Reddit where bite-sized pieces of non-conversation rule.

[ABED]

I've personally never been of the belief that "If you don't like it, don't watch/read it" is a valid dismissal of criticism. It ignores the idea that people can like something enough to want it to be better.

What does get tiresome is reading the same criticisms repeatedly, or encountering ones that seem contradictory to the series' goals. I could read calm discussions about Super's direction, animation, or broader writing endlessly, and we do see criticism in those areas from people who genuinely want it to be better and can express themselves reasonably. It's complaints along the lines of "X character doesn't get to do X!" or "The series used to be good and now it's bad because of X superficial reasons!" that aren't worth anyone's time.

On that note, perhaps it's worth establishing some connotative distinction between "criticism" and "complaint." There are plenty of disparaging comments that seek to understand and discuss potential problems, and there are those that represent kneejerk reactions uninviting to further responses. Guess which ones I'd rather never read again.

It's a matter of degree. If a series is deep into its run and there's no sign of improvement and all you see is the same criticisms, I do think those people should cut and run.

I just wanted to say that I utterly detest the "argument" that if you don't like something, you can't criticize it unless you're capable of producing something better yourself.

Agreed, it's like saying I can't be critical of the food I eat because I'm not a chef.

[MCDaveG]

The comparison is more apt when you compare the original movie cover art to the redone stuff:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

But that Ressurection F poster is on-model and the top quality art that is nowadays. That redone stuff looks like they've hired some junior in Illustrator to trace the original and not even trying...
There are fans doing top notch artwork and slapping this on official merchandise is just ludicrous.

Difference is fans have a no time limit they can take their time. Someone working for Toei or other most definitely has a time limit and knowing Toei they probably don't leave the person with sufficient time.

Who knows, there is so many possibilities what could've been the case. Working as a graphic designer, I was doing all possible stuff from illustrating books, but my main skill is typography and meeting all sorts of clients and employers, who knows.
But this looks like someone not good with ordering graphics work, like some random account manager, side-shelving it to someone, who is mediocre and not part of some better design studio, set the deadlines, he nodded his head for small amount of money and let the horrible work happen. Some huge companies do care about their products a lot, but there is lot of multi-lever work. So there can happen a thing where you have a smaller part of the company, that just happens to want some visual art and so they order it on someone who they think is made up for that task. I dunno.

Where is this art used anyway?

[Attitudefan]

I seem to have to always use these comparisons to show how the art is also how they treat the show nowadays:



The older one has a good understanding of colour theory and composition (I believe the original poster was drawn by Maeda himself). The second is just pasted on top of each other with no regard to the original composition.

And for those of you saying Yamamuro was better... no he really wasn't. Again, this example I will use here. The bloated faces, the shiny skin, the flat line work, and a poor understanding of shading to accentuate three-dimensional space plagues Yamamuro's work since the Cell arc. Yamamuro's style is just has Piccolo's head pasted over his clothing and his clothing has no wieght to it. That's the thing about Early DB/Z is that even the choreography has more weight to it (barring Last House).

[spoiler]
Maeda's era


Yamamuro's era (Cell arc)[/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Huge difference in the way the line work was; the understanding of 3D space is apparent in the older art but lacking in the newer stuff.

Also, the Cell arc is where all the problems linked to modern Dragon Ball really started: the abuse of SSJ forms, earthbound villains (which don't cause nearly the destruction that Freeza's empire did) that are somehow more powerful than an intergalactic empire, non-saiyans becoming irrelevant, really dumb/irrational decisions made by the protagonists in order to advance the plot, Vegeta's contrasting characterization compared to the preceding arc(s) (which in filler, the anime staff tried to fix, but ended in a wasted effort). And even Goku's progression of a character began its regression here: Goku's strange way he deals with his son against Cell just screams regressed character traits as well. Goku went from hurrying as fast as he can to make sure his friends don't die and protects them at all costs, even with a clever strategy for resurrecting the Dragon while fighting Freeza at the same time (and rushing home while Freeza landed on Earth), to allowing Gero to wreak havoc on Earth and nearly letting his son die for the laughs.

And apparently, an old man who made himself an Android is more powerful than Freeza, yet he can barely destroy an island, let alone a city, and isn't even fast enough to travel a few kilometers to get to his lab while in retreat. Yet, Freeza can cross one side of a planet to another in minutes. I honestly see many of the issues stemming from the Android period and just got exponentially worse as time went on.

EDIT: Even Goku, in the future timeline, is well aware to not let threats go and risk people's lives. He rushes to the scene and instantly kills Cold and Freeza. We don't see this kind of Goku when the Android arc truly begins. Goku really does begin to have regressive traits once Freeza dies.

[sintzu]

And apparently, an old man who made himself an Android is more powerful than Freeza, yet he can barely destroy an island, let alone a city, and isn't even fast enough to travel a few kilometers to get to his lab while in retreat. Yet, Freeza can cross one side of a planet to another in minutes.

This is a really good point, I wish he would've explained that cause if Gero, #17 & #18 can get that strong then why can't the other humans ? what kind of metal did he se to get himself and them to that point ? and how did they learn to use Ki ?

I think having the android arc set before the Saiyan arc would've taken care of those issues.

Everything after the 23rd Tenkaichi would've been A LOT different but I think it might've been for the best.

[Attitudefan]

And apparently, an old man who made himself an Android is more powerful than Freeza, yet he can barely destroy an island, let alone a city, and isn't even fast enough to travel a few kilometers to get to his lab while in retreat. Yet, Freeza can cross one side of a planet to another in minutes.

This is a really good point, I wish he would've explained that cause if Gero, #17 & #18 can get that strong then why can't the other humans ? what kind of metal did he se to get himself and them to that point ? and how did they learn to use Ki ?

I think having the android arc set before the Saiyan arc would've taken care of those issues.

Everything after the 23rd Tenkaichi would've been A LOT different but I think it might've been for the best.

Man, absolutely. Never thought about the placement of it being a solution, but it really would. Not only would the Red Ribbon be a fresher memory for people watching it on a weekly basis, but it would allow everyone to be involved. The time travel and heart virus stuff could still be included. And it would make sense for Cell to pop up too as he would have the cells of all the strongest fighters in the "Strongest Under the Heavens" tournament. Cell's creation being a Frankenstein of the best martial artists tie-in makes more sense that way and be way more relevant to the story as a successor to the tournament arc rather than aliens/namek. Hell, Trunks could be the child of one of the other Z-Fighters rather than Vegeta making the humans remain relevant.

Wow, I'd like to see a re-write of this arc being prior to the Saiyan arc. Have the story play out as 23rd TB->Android/Cell->Saiyan->Freeza->Buu. Hell, then at the very least you wouldn't have two antagonists who can regenerate and transform due to absorption back to back in this version of arc order. Problem that made Buu underwhelming is that we saw something exactly like him the arc before: Cell and his transforming/absorbing/healing techniques are practically identical to Buu.

[Soppa Saia People]

I've personally never been of the belief that "If you don't like it, don't watch/read it" is a valid dismissal of criticism. It ignores the idea that people can like something enough to want it to be better..

I agree for the most part, but I never got why one someone who actively detest something, would watch it. That can't be healthy,

[Bansho64]

I agree for the most part, but I never got why one someone who actively detest something, would watch it. That can't be healthy,

*shrugs*
Sometimes, that all people have. It's like with the DBZ dub, some of the older members who hated it had to watch it because that's all they had on TV. Fansubs weren't available to everyone at the time and not everyone had the money to buy the DVDs. Some of the DVDs weren't even out yet. And even though they disliked the dub, they still loved the series. So, they watched it.

[ABED]

some of the older members who hated it had to watch it because that's all they had on TV.

Maybe it's the only version of Dragon Ball, but there were other shows to watch.

The older one has a good understanding of colour theory and composition

Color theory? There's something as asinine as color THEORY?

[Bansho64]

Maybe it's the only version of Dragon Ball, but there were other shows to watch.

But some of them only loved Dragon Ball. And not everyone had every channel back then. I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to point out to me.

[ABED]

Maybe it's the only version of Dragon Ball, but there were other shows to watch.

But some of them only loved Dragon Ball. And not everyone had every channel back then. I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to point out to me.

I don't buy for a second that some ONLY liked one show. No, not everyone had every channel back then, but Cartoon Network was cable. If they had cable, they had plenty of choices. This isn't that long ago. We aren't talking about the days when there were only 3 channels and PBS. And you can't infer that if someone doesn't like the dub, they could've watched any number of things? They weren't stuck watching something that made them miserable. If watching something only irritates them, I do think it's valid to suggest they find something else better to do than to constantly criticize the show/movie.

[Bansho64]

I don't buy for a second that some ONLY liked one show. No, not everyone had every channel back then, but Cartoon Network was cable. If they had cable, they had plenty. This isn't that long ago. We aren't talking about the days when there were only 3 channels and PBS. And you can't infer that if someone doesn't like the dub, they could've watched any number of things?

My brother inlaw didn't. He had basic channels back then but only a few could really work because of how crappy his TV and his family's financial state was. Cartoon Network was one of them. And he himself liked DBZ a lot. But he didn't like the dub. He still watched it though because it was still Dragon Ball and that's all he had when it came to the series.

[rereboy]

Nobody watches something that they completely hate. People just hate some aspects of it while liking others, which makes them frustrated but not enough to stop watching, and they exaggerate when talking about it.

[ABED]

I don't buy for a second that some ONLY liked one show. No, not everyone had every channel back then, but Cartoon Network was cable. If they had cable, they had plenty. This isn't that long ago. We aren't talking about the days when there were only 3 channels and PBS. And you can't infer that if someone doesn't like the dub, they could've watched any number of things?

My brother inlaw didn't. He had basic channels back then but only a few could really work because of how crappy his TV and his family's financial state was. Cartoon Network was one of them. And he himself liked DBZ a lot. But he didn't like the dub. He still watched it though because it was still Dragon Ball and that's all he had when it came to the series.

Even with basic channels that's still plenty. This basic package includes cable channels, he had options. This isn't the days of our fathers where they would walk three miles in the snow to get to school. If someone disliked the dub, they had other things they could watch. And at no point, even with a limited number of channels, is someone so bereft of options that they are limited to watching something they don't like. There's always going outside to play or reading.

Even if someone doesn't completely hate shows like the DBZ dub, there have to be more constructive ways to spend one's time than just bashing it.

[TheMikado]

Nobody watches something that they completely hate. People just hate some aspects of it while liking others, which makes them frustrated but not enough to stop watching, and they exaggerate when talking about it.

I'm in this category. I think our love for the series on more than a casual level is evident by being here. That said. Like a relationship, everyone takes something different from it. In the series there are many people frustrated with not getting certain aspects that they were looking forward to from the series they have previously gotten. There is still love for DB but the newer content can be frustrating for some, myself included. Just like a bad relationship, people hold on to things they love hoping it will get better, rather than walking away

[sintzu]

Problem that made Buu underwhelming is that we saw something exactly like him the arc before: Cell and his transforming/absorbing/healing techniques are practically identical to Buu.

I'd leave Buu out of this version and end it with Goku reaching Ssj and killing Freeza on Namek.

[Bansho64]

Even with basic channels that's still plenty. This basic package includes cable channels, he had options. This isn't the days of our fathers where they would walk three miles in the snow to get to school. If someone disliked the dub, they had other things they could watch. And at no point, even with a limited number of channels, is someone so bereft of options that they are limited to watching something they don't like. There's always going outside to play or reading.

72 was all he had. Most of them weren't even kids channels. Some of em didn't even work. And FYI, he couldn't always go outside. He lived in a very rough part of the neighborhood. There are some places in Compton where you just can't go outside all the time. Like I said, he was poor at the time but he had to make do with what he got.

[ABED]

Even with basic channels that's still plenty. This basic package includes cable channels, he had options. This isn't the days of our fathers where they would walk three miles in the snow to get to school. If someone disliked the dub, they had other things they could watch. And at no point, even with a limited number of channels, is someone so bereft of options that they are limited to watching something they don't like. There's always going outside to play or reading.

72 was all he had. Most of them weren't even kids channels. Some of em didn't even work. And FYI, he couldn't always go outside. He lived in a very rough part of the neighborhood. There are some places in Compton where you just can't go outside all the time. Like I said, he was poor at the time but he had to make do with what he got.

Not disadvantaged. There were still plenty of channels. If you have cable, you have options. I grew up during that time as well and had very similar options and found there was plenty to watch for a kid that age besides DBZ.