"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Yeah, I don't think it can be a complete loop at this point (and I wanted it to be!). Beerus killing Zamasu in the present pretty clearly seems to have curtailed the events that lead to Black's creation, rather than being essential to them, which is why I go with the reading I posted above.

Implying Goku and Zamasu sparred under the same circumstances is enormous sloppiness, though, so it only works out if you assume they met for other reasons (word spreading after the U6 tournament?) that the series doesn't deem necessary to clarify, if they even realized it needs clarification in the first place.

Edit -- Agreed with ChronoTwigger below.

[ChronoTwigger]

I wrote the exact same thing in the ep. #61 discussion.
Happy to see that someone else too doesn't build on speculations and simply listen words as they are said.
"Nothing in the past could affect me 'cause of this time ring".
So, not other timelines are created.

Easier than most people continue to think. It's not even a time loop.
You can think of Black as a "time alteration leftover".

[TheMikado]

Yeah, I don't think it can be a complete loop at this point (and I wanted it to be!). Beerus killing Zamasu in the present pretty clearly seems to have curtailed the events that lead to Black's creation, rather than being essential to them, which is why I go with the reading I posted above.

Implying Goku and Zamasu sparred under the same circumstances is enormous sloppiness, though, so it only works out if you assume they met for other reasons (word spreading after the U6 tournament?) that the series doesn't deem necessary to clarify, if they even realized it needs clarification in the first place.

Edit -- Agreed with ChronoTwigger below.

I completely agree in the sloppiness department, I would even agree that Black is a time loop leftover if not for the fact that it implies the events of Beerus suspecting Zamasu to unfold exactly the same. Literally the only difference after Goku fought Zamasu is that in one timeline Beerus went back and destroyed him and another he didn't. I'm fine with the timeline overwrite. It's the part where they diverge which doesn't make sense as to if the events unfolded exactly the same then Beerus should have been lead to the same conclusion every time and destroyed Zamasu therefore Black should never exist anywhere.

[Geekdom101]

I wrote the exact same thing in the ep. #61 discussion.
Happy to see that someone else too doesn't build on speculations and simply listen words as they are said.
"Nothing in the past could affect me 'cause of this time ring".
So, not other timelines are created.

Easier than most people continue to think. It's not even a time loop.
You can think of Black as a "time alteration leftover".

YES! A LEFT OVER! Perfect!

Its not a full loop, but all of this can be broken once Black is beaten at the end of this arc!

[TheMikado]

I've said this many times already in this thread and the others, but on another forum I found the single best post for explaining why this doesn't make sense. In theory the loop should always involve both Trunks coming back AND Beerus deleting Black. Meaning there should never be a point where Zamasu both fought Goku in the same manner AND survived to become Black. Unless there's an explanation to that effect.

This doesn't explain how the time loop was broken with Beerus killing Zamasu, how could that have happened? Story aint over yet but still.

From the events we see from our perspective, Trunks coming back should always end up leading to Zamasu getting deleted, yet we know that Zamasu escaped this fate.......how? This video asserts Trunks always comes back in the loop, so yeah, a question mark there.

If you go with the theory that Trunks doesn't come back in the "starting point" of the loop and Zamasu learns about Goku some other way then everything makes sense but there's actually another really big problem, we saw the flashback of him fighting Goku and it was the exact same fight we saw. If Zamasu fought Goku under completely different circumstances surely the fight would look a little different, yet it was indeed the same one we saw. (you can just say the animators were being lazy and just reused footage and it might be true, in that case they unnessarily created a big issue when you need to be very meticulous when dealing with time travel plots)

Going under the assumption they weren't being lazy then the video is likely correct that Trunks always comes back, which goes back to the original question, how does Zamasu escape getting killed by Beerus, how did the loop break?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Yeah, I don't think it can be a complete loop at this point (and I wanted it to be!). Beerus killing Zamasu in the present pretty clearly seems to have curtailed the events that lead to Black's creation, rather than being essential to them, which is why I go with the reading I posted above.

Implying Goku and Zamasu sparred under the same circumstances is enormous sloppiness, though, so it only works out if you assume they met for other reasons (word spreading after the U6 tournament?) that the series doesn't deem necessary to clarify, if they even realized it needs clarification in the first place.

Edit -- Agreed with ChronoTwigger below.

I don't think it needs clarifying how they were destined to fight, it would be appreciated sure but the fact that they acknowledge/imply that with or without Trunks those two would fight is good enough for me.

They could have tidyed it up a bit better though one simple line by Whis or Beerus would have sufficed like "I was meaning to take you there anyway" before they set of to U10. Still hope the Manga will do that.

[Smilodon]

I was thinking about those timelines...It may be like this:

- 1st timeline (Silver Ring):

- All things happened the same way...So Goku defeated Freeza in Namek and when he came to earth. After this he died from heart virus! Ok!
- So, the Androids shows up and kills everybody, except Trunks!
- Trunks didn't go to past and possibly killed by androids!
- This first and original timeline possibly ends with no Z warriors, and nothing else is known (possibly Cell becoming perfect, but having no one to fight);
- This main timeline must be one which Trunks never traveled to past. At the moment Trunks traveled, a second ring was created (the green one) spliting in 2 different timelines;
- Zamasu never had his plan because Trunks never travelled and he is dead too.

2nd timeline (Green Ring 1):

- 1st timeline Trunks goes back to save Goku;
- Cell shows up and kills Trunks;
- Cell goes to past (creating another green ring with the 3rd timeline);
- This timeline doesn't have anyone relevant now. Then, Zamasu from this timeline could travel to third timeline and killed the 3rd Goku.

3rd timeline (Green Ring 2):

- Goku was saved by 2nd Trunks and probably killed the androids (or they become good people like in present);
- The main timeline Trunks never came back because he was killed by Cell;
- Cell never showed up too, because he jumped into a 4th timeline;
- Everything else could happen in same way (babidi + Dabura + Boo, Beerus, Freeza, Tournament..etc);
- This Goku from 3rd timeline could be Black now;
- Zamasu from this timeline meet Black (2nd Zamasu) and becomes immortal.

4th timeline (Green Ring 3):

- 3rd Trunks saved goku, and found another time machine;
- Cell from 2nd timeline appears;
- Cell was defeated;
- Trunks defeated Cell from 3rd timeline;
- This Trunks is the same we have in Super. And those Z warriors are the same we have too. 4th Trunks is still a child;
- Present Zamasu got killed by Beerus, but nothing happens in previous timeline (because Black is using the Silver Ring) and Zamasu is immortal

5th timeline (Green Ring 4):

- I have no idea.

[emperior]

So Future Zamasu survived Beerus' Hakai thanks to his immortality, while Black thanks to the time ring. Makes sense but I still don't get why they had to show Goku vs Zamasu flashback when Black was explaining his origin. It's so confusionary, also Black as been around in Trunks' timeline for one year, so it can't be our Zamasu because if our Zamasu was to change timeline with the green ring, he would have arrived in Future Trunks' timeline, on the earth Black was attacking. But it's also possible time doesn't flow the same between universes, because when Future Trunks arrived in the past the second time (just when androids started attacking) only 6 months passed in his timeline while 3 years passed in our. So that time technically a new timeline should have been created, one in which FT never came back.

I really hope the show will make some sense out of it with a proper explanation.

[Helios518]

Isn't it possible that the reason Black originally fought Goku in his timeline could be because of Godtube or something else (eliminating the paradox)? Something like this

[TheMikado]

Isn't it possible that the reason Black originally fought Goku in his timeline could be because of Godtube or something else (eliminating the paradox)? Something like this

Yes, the problem is the show should explain it.

[dragonballhero]

I was thinking about those timelines...It may be like this:

- 1st timeline (Silver Ring):

- All things happened the same way...So Goku defeated Freeza in Namek and when he came to earth. After this he died from heart virus! Ok!
- So, the Androids shows up and kills everybody, except Trunks!
- Trunks didn't go to past and possibly killed by androids!
- This first and original timeline possibly ends with no Z warriors, and nothing else is known (possibly Cell becoming perfect, but having no one to fight);
- This main timeline must be one which Trunks never traveled to past. At the moment Trunks traveled, a second ring was created (the green one) spliting in 2 different timelines;
- Zamasu never had his plan because Trunks never traveled and he is dead too.

2nd timeline (Green Ring 1):

- 1st timeline Trunks goes back to save Goku;
- Cell shows up and kills Trunks;
- Cell goes to past (creating another green ring with the 3rd timeline);
- This timeline doesn't have anyone relevant now. Then, Zamasu from this timeline could travel to third timeline and killed the 3rd Goku.

3rd timeline (Green Ring 2):

- Goku was saved by 2nd Trunks and probably killed the androids (or they become good people like in present);
- The main timeline Trunks never came back because he was killed by Cell;
- Cell never showed up too, because he jumped into a 4th timeline;
- Everything else could happen in same way (babidi + Dabura + Boo, Beerus, Freeza, Tournament..etc);
- This Goku from 3rd timeline could be Black now;
- Zamasu from this timeline meet Black (2nd Zamasu) and becomes immortal.

4th timeline (Green Ring 3):

- 3rd Trunks saved goku, and found another time machine;
- Cell from 2nd timeline appears;
- Cell was defeated;
- Trunks defeated Cell from 3rd timeline;
- This Trunks is the same we have in Super. And those Z warriors are the same we have too. 4th Trunks is still a child;
- Present Zamasu got killed by Beerus, but nothing happens in previous timeline (because Black is using the Silver Ring) and Zamasu is immortal

5th timeline (Green Ring 4):

- I have no idea.

Seems legit. You seem to have it worked out pretty well here!

[Cipher]

Isn't it possible that the reason Black originally fought Goku in his timeline could be because of Godtube or something else (eliminating the paradox)? Something like this *image snip*

Yeah; they could absolutely meet and spar for other reasons. It's just badly presented in the show, where we get flashbacks to the fight we witnessed without further commentary. It makes you wonder if anyone on staff realized the causality there is totally messed up.

That diagram seems to be mostly accurate to what was intended, except that rather than being two separate timelines as we understand them from Trunks and Cell's previous time travel, that first (red) chain of events is a case of a future being genuinely overwritten/altered (no new green time rings).

Also, it should be "wreak havoc," not "wreck."

It's so confusionary, also Black as been around in Trunks' timeline for one year, so it can't be our Zamasu because if our Zamasu was to change timeline with the green ring, he would have arrived in Future Trunks' timeline, on the earth Black was attacking.

Trunks' world isn't just a parallel timeline; it's also, every time the main cast enters it, seventeen years in the future. If Zamasu entered that parallel timeline immediately after using the Super Dragon Balls, he has (up to)* fifteen years there to meet up with his parallel self and wreak havoc before first arriving on Earth.

*"Up to," because he also has a time ring that can let him jump into the future. Now, this is still a bit messy, because the manga shows up him witnessing the Kaioshin's death at the hands of Dabra, and saying he's glad to find a world in which the Kaioshin and Hakaishin should no longer exist. Which would imply he's selecting Trunks' timeline specifically for that? And then he goes and recruits his parallel self and they screw around for a bit and then return to Earth later? Who knows. Not super clear. I actually started to poke holes in what I was saying as I was typing it.

[emperior]

It's so confusionary, also Black as been around in Trunks' timeline for one year, so it can't be our Zamasu because if our Zamasu was to change timeline with the green ring, he would have arrived in Future Trunks' timeline, on the earth Black was attacking.

Trunks' world isn't just a parallel timeline; it's also, every time the main cast enters it, seventeen years in the future. If Zamasu entered that parallel timeline immediately after using the Super Dragon Balls, he has (up to)* fifteen years there to meet up with his parallel self and wreak havoc before first arriving on Earth.

*"Up to," because he also has a time ring that can let him jump into the future. Now, this is still a bit messy, because the manga shows up him witnessing the Kaioshin's death at the hands of Dabra, and saying he's glad to find a world in which the Kaioshin and Hakaishin should no longer exist. Which would imply he's selecting Trunks' timeline specifically for that? And then he goes and recruits his parallel self and they screw around for a bit and then return to Earth later? Who knows. Not super clear. I actually started to poke holes in what I was saying as I was typing it.

Wait, there's no way Black would have fifteen years to wreak havoc. When travelling with the green time ring, he would arrive exactly in FT timeline, it seems that time flows exactly the same between all timelines (meaning, if 10 years passed in our main timeline, 10 years also passed in Trunks' timeline)

What I still don't get is, if time flows the same between timelines (it logically should) then did Trunks create a new timeline when he went back in the past the second time, when the androids started attacking? Because he stated he would be back as soon as the fuel for the time machine was ready (6-8 months iirc) so in his world a maximum of 1 year passed while in the past, 3 years passed.

[Rubens]

I watched your video and thanks to it I think I got it: because Black already existed in the future, Beerus killing Zamasu (the same Zamasu that fought Goku, killed Gowasu and became "Black") in the present would not change of affect anything! Because Black exists and the timering shielded him from being erased. This is crazy! (But good...)

Does this mean the 5th timeline is the one without Zamasu (who became Black and left to Trunk's timeline) and without Goku (who was killed by Zamasu)?

[Marlowe89]

(the anime really botched this by simply preventing their sparring as if it could have occurred under the same circumstances we've witnessed, which is minorly infuriating)

As I've pointed out in other threads, that fact alone is precisely why there's a problem with the way Toei portrayed this whole thing. Black being a result of events that began when Goku fought Zamasu implies that it's a continuous loop, because Goku would never have encountered Zamasu under these circumstances if Beerus didn't find out about Black. But if it's a continuous loop, then Beerus investigating and ultimately destroying Zamasu is actually a predetermined event that is a necessary part of the loop. But if that's a predetermined part of the loop, then there's simply no possible way Black could ever have been created in the first place, and Black's creation cannot be caused by Black travelling to the past through a time distortion because otherwise there would be no future Black to begin with! Toei's approach makes no coherent sense, even when considering time paradoxes, mainstream time theories and causal loops.

The only way we can justify Black's existence is if there's a timeline split somewhere, and for it to mesh with all of these events being a connected cycle as Toei appears to be implying, that split would have to be after Goku fights Zamasu which is either A.) when Goku and Vegeta return to the present for the first time after being defeated, or B.) when Whis used his temporal do-over. I can't think of anything else that could possibly tie everything together.

[TheMikado]

^^^ Amen! Look I'm not trying to harp on a specific point. My problem is that taken in the context of all the other sloppy writing in Super, I feel like we deserve better for a new Dragonball series then some of the haphazardly constructed scenarios we've gotten. It doesn't seem fair because they know we will watch it anyway and the show sometimes reflects that attitude as if they don't need to earn our appreciation.

[Terra-jin]

What I still don't get is, if time flows the same between timelines (it logically should) then did Trunks create a new timeline when he went back in the past the second time, when the androids started attacking? Because he stated he would be back as soon as the fuel for the time machine was ready (6-8 months iirc) so in his world a maximum of 1 year passed while in the past, 3 years passed.

Let's find out: Trunks' second trip took place in (roughly) 785. At that time, the main timeline was at 765. Since Trunks set the arrival time at 767, it did not alter history, so no new timelines were created.

The only way we can justify Black's existence is if there's a timeline split somewhere, and for it to mesh with all of these events being a connected cycle as Toei appears to be implying, that split would have to be after Goku fights Zamasu which is either A.) when Goku and Vegeta return to the present for the first time after being defeated, or B.) when Whis used his temporal do-over. I can't think of anything else that could possibly tie everything together.

The confusion is mainly because of Black's statements and the general fact that the show seems to suggest that Black is from the main timeline. I still think that Black can theoretically come from the unseen timeline, where he met Goku under different circumstances. The Goku that turned into Zamasu's body is then from the unseen timeline (our very first footage of this timeline).

We have little information on how the unseen timeline's story panned out. However, if Goku and Vegeta and the rest are alive, the Battle of Gods and subsequent events may still have taken place in roughly the same way. This might explain how Black knows SSB and Vegeta. It also requires no new timelines to be added into the mix.

It's a bit of a stretch, but as far as explanations go it's far more elegant (in my opinion, at least) than theories on broken causal time loops and time rings preserving Black as a 'leftover' of an overwritten history that should've vanished, contradicting time travel mechanics as Dragonball had previously presented them to us. In any case, I hope we'll get more explanations on this matter.

[UpFromTheSkies]

There's no time loop, in the original time line Zamasu would have learned about Goku from watching the tournament between U6 and U7 on God tube. He would have also seen Goku at the multiverse tournament, which is what I had originally thought was the case, but when they swapped bodies Goku didn't recognize Zamasu, so he must have seen him from God tube instead.

[Cipher]

Wait, there's no way Black would have fifteen years to wreak havoc. When travelling with the green time ring, he would arrive exactly in FT timeline, it seems that time flows exactly the same between all timelines (meaning, if 10 years passed in our main timeline, 10 years also passed in Trunks' timeline)

What I still don't get is, if time flows the same between timelines (it logically should) then did Trunks create a new timeline when he went back in the past the second time, when the androids started attacking? Because he stated he would be back as soon as the fuel for the time machine was ready (6-8 months iirc) so in his world a maximum of 1 year passed while in the past, 3 years passed.

Nothing implies the timelines are always seventeen years apart or anything. Nor would that be logical. The history of Trunks' world doesn't just cease to exist.

He happens to have set his time machine to travel back seventeen years both in the original arc and this one, but perhaps that's because that's as far back as his fuel can reasonably take him. He also has to make sure he never overlaps his visits, which would create timeline splits. But if he wanted to, he could presumably arrive at any year in the past; case in point, Cell leaves from a point more than seventeen years into the future to arrive a year earlier than Trunks.

They do always have to return to a moment later than the time machine left from, though. Again, to prevent overlaps and splits, at the very least. And perhaps at that point, it isn't worth tampering with the time machine to do anything besides keep it at "seventeen years" for both to-and-from trips. We don't know how fine its settings are, or how difficult it is to alter them.

Which is all to say, despite what we see the main cast doing, there's no logical reason Zamasu couldn't simply enter that timeline into the parallel version of the same calendar year he leaves from.

[TheMikado]

There's no time loop, in the original time line Zamasu would have learned about Goku from watching the tournament between U6 and U7 on God tube. He would have also seen Goku at the multiverse tournament, which is what I had originally thought was the case, but when they swapped bodies Goku didn't recognize Zamasu, so he must have seen him from God tube instead.

Where did they say that? I must have missed that episode?
Plus Black says he fought Goku before so he swapped bodies, they even show the flashback clip, so I would think Goku would have remembered Zamasu.