"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

I've decided to strictly address the topic at hand. First we will look at your original theory as a whole.

Hole #1
You are proposing a splitting of the timelines at a point where literally no one else has proposed because that specific point contains no known in-universe mechanism for splitting the timeline. The argument that this is where the timeline split would need to be stronger than " There had to be a split somewhere".

Hole #2
This may be a misunderstanding of what a paradox is. The crux of the paradox is that when Black appears, it leads Beerus and Whis to Zamasu and allows the Goku fight to take place. There is nothing in-universe to show that these events would definitely take place independent of Black's appearance in the present timeline. Where the paradox breaks down is at the point where Beerus destroys Zamasu thus it should end the events following it. The problem with this is that what I will deem point Zero, there would need to be a change in the timeline but under the exact same conditions.

Point Zero (Black appears and Leads Beerus & Whis to Zamasu) You seem to agree this takes place both in the present and "destroyed" original timeline.
We know that events also followed similarly due to the fight sequence. So now, the point where you claim the time line split is where they go into the future. My question to you would be why would they do anything differently in the original timeline if the preceding events are exactly the same. If you are claim they have what are these actions and why?

Hole #3
You again seem to recognize the paradox but seem to be suggesting that given the same set of circumstances in one timeline they did not return to the future and the other they did. Again, in the timeline they didn't what happened? Were they content to let Black run amok in the future and just tell Trunk "sorry". This is the paradox of the present timeline. Where did present Black come from if every action following his appearance would have ultimately led to his destruction before he was even created? There would have to be some fundamental change in the original timeline and I am asking what that change specifically is that would allow them to let Zamasu/Black create himself.

About Hole #1:

I revised the time of the split a bit but otherwise the theory stays the same.

1) We know the timeline splits when something that was already established in its history gets changed in order to allow both events to exist. That's why Trunks' first visit split the timeline because he killed Freeza and handed over the medicine to Goku preventing him to die from the heart virus. We don't know if travelling by itself splits the timeline or doing actions that cause the change is what does, but it happens regardless.

2) We know Black exists. Since Black's existence is an actual event written in the history of the timeline, proven by Black himself existing, the Universe has to have a timeline where that is true. We know that Zamasu fights Goku, kills Gowasu, uses the Super Dragon Balls to exchange bodies and travels to Trunks' timeline. We watched Zamasu going to Zunou's about the same time they returned from the future so we also know this had to happen as this is necessary for the creation of Black. This means that a split had to happen between him visiting Zunou and them arriving at the Kaioushin Realm.

About Hole #2 and #3:

Black's very own existence forces the Universe to have a timeline where all the events culminating in Goku and Zamasu's fight and him going to Zunou's happen and in which he's successful in his plan to exist. Trunks' first time travel showed us that the timeline still follows its intended course even with slight changes so it's possible that them wanting to kill him still happened but there's a lot of wiggle room for things to change between the time Kaioushin arrived at Capsule Corporation and the time they went to the Kaioushin Realm. In this case there's no third party making the changes but the Universe itself adjusting the timelines to make Black's birth a possibility. We also know this can happen because the Universe fixed the anomaly created by the time machine and the Time Ring.

Black should have disappeared when Beers killed Zamasu, as he reasoned, ending the paradox but since he is being protected by the Time Ring (whether by the item itself or by being in a parallel world) his existence can't be erased indirectly from the past. This, again, leads to the retroactive existence of a timeline from where he originated. Since that timeline split directly from the present one, being based in Zamasu's life or death status, Beers' godly influence successfully erased it when killing Zamasu so there's no further Time Ring created anywhere. That timeline was also the one where the paradox existed so it also vanished since the present timeline we are following won't have a Black being created, which further means no Super Dragon Balls destroyed in the future nor Goku getting body-switched.

I'm agreeing with you that we know another timeline has to exist by virtue of Blacks existence. The problem is in universe this is never stated or explained, in fact, in universe it implies things constantly would terminate into the same end and actually creates an in and out of universe paradox. We as the audience know that this timeline must exist somehow because that's the only way Black could have existed in the first place. The problem is the anime seems to imply that the events internally loop to the same termination points with no explanation on what the circumstances of the loop which creates Black were.

Basically everyone knows there was a point in time where the only difference was Zamasu not being destroyed. In universe it seems no one has questions to that effect yet.
Out of universe, we all want to know why they timeline diverged, and what happened to allow Black to be created. That specific point is where everyone is casting out theories and there's nothing wrong with that. My argument is that at this stage we don't know, can't know for sure, and it's possible we may never know if they choose to ignore or withhold exposition of that specific point.

[HeroR]

The flashback when Goku and Zamasu fought is exactly the same as Episode 53 implying that this isn't a timeline where Trunks never arrived since Goku only met and fought Zamasu because they wanted to know if he was Black. Zamasu didn't say, I saw Goku on Godtube, went to meet him, and lost in a fight. He said Goku gave him a crushing defeat and we see Goku and Zamasu's sparring match from Episode 53, implying that a time loop has happened.

Also, Zamasu only confirmed that he would used the Time Ring. He didn't say that he got his plan completely right. And why would he given the situation he was in.

If a time-loop happened, Goku wouldn't be hanging around on Earth farming. Aside the flashback between Zamasu and Goku's fight (Which I already addressed above), Black's flashback is very different compared to what we saw in the previous episodes. The way Gowasu died is different (He wasn't in a table), Goku is farming, and Black!Zamasu's plan for the Super Dragon Balls is different compared to the Zamasu that was destroyed by Beerus.

I never said Zamasu first seen Goku on Kamitube, don't know where you get that from, just that Zamasu and Goku will eventually fight regardless of Trunks and Black. If you actually read my whole post, you'd know what I was trying to say.

When Kaioshin exposed his plan to kill Gowasu, steal the time ring, uses the Super Dragon Ball for immortality, and a fake Goku, he said he's impressed they managed to work it out.

The series seems to be trying to tell us that Black is from what the original course of history of the Super timeline, but Trunks coming back and warning everything about him completely changes the history, which leads to Zamasu getting destroyed. However, even though the history was changed, Black still exists because of the Time-Ring he wears.

There's no new timelines, full time-loops, or whatever. Some people are overthinking it way too much, while thinking about it hours earlier I realized things would be easy if we were to just assume Zamasu and Goku will eventually fight regardless.

Why wouldn't he be farming? He has been shown farming off and on since the first episode. The arc started with Goku harvesting his crop. And Gawasu's death is most likely different because Whis, Beerus, Goku, and the Supreme Kai wasn't there to throw Zamasu off. Remember, Gawasu was snacking on Earth food when Zamasu offs him.

Also, Zamasu probably meant that they worked it out in the sense that the figured out that he planned to used the Time Ring to get to the Super Dragon Balls early. He didn't exactly go point by point saying where they were right or wrong.

Black more less confirmed that he is the same Zamasu Goku fought back in Episode 53. There was nothing shown that this was an alternative version where they met and fought.

[Lord Beerus]

The fourth box set of Super sold 650 copies on DVD and 672 copies on Blu-Ray.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Sales for DVD and Blu-Ray are not that great they are just about alright. But Super isn't aiming for a home video success, it's main aim is increasing toy sales which it is doing from what I've heard so that's that.

Are there any recent numbers of how Super is doing in merchandise ?

- Travis

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Sales for DVD and Blu-Ray are not that great they are just about alright. But Super isn't aiming for a home video success, it's main aim is increasing toy sales which it is doing from what I've heard so that's that.

Are there any recent numbers of how Super is doing in merchandise ?

- Travis

I might be wrong but I think they get reported yearly. But since Super started airing they jumped from 5bn yen to 11bn yen and they projected a slight drop for next year from what I remember reading. Looks like it's gonna hold well.

[ArchedThunder]

How does Box 4's sales compare to the others?

[GodKaio-Ken]

Considering they had already fought it doesn't make sense when they switch bodies. Goku should realize who he turned into rather than being perplexed. Has this bothered anyone else or am I missing something?

[Anime Kitten]

Considering they had already fought it doesn't make sense when they switch bodies. Goku should realize who he turned into rather than being perplexed. Has this bothered anyone else or am I missing something?

I don't think he was perplexed by who he turned into so much as that he turned into someone else out of the blue.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Considering they had already fought it doesn't make sense when they switch bodies. Goku should realize who he turned into rather than being perplexed. Has this bothered anyone else or am I missing something?

I don't think he was perplexed by who he turned into so much as that he turned into someone else out of the blue.

Possible. I just keep thinking when Zamasu appeared in his body he didn't really aknowledge realizing much.

It could be that though. The Super writers can be hit or miss with clarification lol

[Lord Beerus]

How does Box 4's sales compare to the others?

Funny enough, I made a thread of this.

[nite_jay]

Considering they had already fought it doesn't make sense when they switch bodies. Goku should realize who he turned into rather than being perplexed. Has this bothered anyone else or am I missing something?

I don't think he was perplexed by who he turned into so much as that he turned into someone else out of the blue.

Possible. I just keep thinking when Zamasu appeared in his body he didn't really aknowledge realizing much.

It could be that though. The Super writers can be hit or miss with clarification lol

Well I mean he can't see his own face, and I doubt Goten or Chi Chi recognizes who Zamasu was to give Goku an idea on what happend.

[buutenks]

I am so worried that ep 65 refers to Zeno, i really hope not. If zeno finishes fused zamasu off without any major battle between goku, vegeta and fused zamasu it would be very anti-climactic.

But i hope, zeno comes at the end and fixes' Trunks timeline.

[ArchedThunder]

I am so worried that ep 65 refers to Zeno, i really hope not. If zeno finishes fused zamasu off without any major battle between goku, vegeta and fused zamasu it would be very anti-climactic.

But i hope, zeno comes at the end and fixes' Trunks timeline.

Zeno has never been referred to as "Supreme God", it's probably a title that the fusion of Black and Zamasu gives himself.

[Kanassa]

But i hope, zeno comes at the end and fixes' Trunks timeline.

I doubt Zeno would come to fix Trunks's timeline, he'd be more nclined to destroy it. I wonder if there will be a hillarious scene of Goku and Vegetat trying to hide F!Trunks

[buutenks]

I am so worried that ep 65 refers to Zeno, i really hope not. If zeno finishes fused zamasu off without any major battle between goku, vegeta and fused zamasu it would be very anti-climactic.

But i hope, zeno comes at the end and fixes' Trunks timeline.

Zeno has never been referred to as "Supreme God", it's probably a title that the fusion of Black and Zamasu gives himself.

I hope so.

[GodVegetto91]

Do you guys think they will reveal "Merged Zamasu's" design in the upcoming V Jump's issue??
Because i can't wait to see his design!!

[Kanassa]

Just had a thought, can the Evil Containment Wave seal someone inside a person? Because it would be kind of hilarious i Zamasu's ultimate punishment is getting trapped inside one of his enemies and being forced to watch them achieve victory.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I'm so confused right now is it Zeno, Omni King or King of All?

[ArchedThunder]

I'm so confused right now is it Zeno, Omni King or King of All?

Zeno is Japanese, King of All and Omni King are two different translations.

[Alruneia]

I'm so confused right now is it Zeno, Omni King or King of All?

Zeno (sometimes written as Zen'ou, which I use; it means the exact same thing) is his Japanese title/name. Omni-King is a fanmade translation that, while accurate, isn't official. King of All (sometimes King of All Universes) is another fanmade translation. They're both fine to use until we get an official English name, if you ask me, but I'll continue calling him Zen'ou (or Zeno) for now.