Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

[TheUltimateNinja]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

[Lord Frieza]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

No what I mean is this, I feel that some people want SS4 to be a "some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation" and I ask why? As I've just pointed out the form is pretty awesome a 10x power up is a huge improvement so why then do some people feel that it has to be stronger? Why must SS4 trump everything?

None of the other forms have, Frieza's power was still on a simile plan to SS1's, dose that make it suck?

Cell was able to match SS2 Gohan, dose SS2 suck?

Buu was on a similer level to SS3 Goku and then quickly surpassed him as did other characters, dose SS3 suck?

SSG and SSB are completely outmatched by Beerus, so do they suck?

So why do some fans feel the need to try and make SS4 so unreasonably strong? Its strong and cool enough as it is. Hell SS4 Goku was been just as outmatched by Baby, Super 17 and Omega as SSB Goku has been by Beerus, Golden Frieza and Black.

I hope that gets my point across, let me know if it doesn't.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Snip.

I get what you're saying, but who was it aimed at and what were you implying? Are you trying to say that despite the huge power boost Goku would still lose?

[Steven Bloodriver]

Snip.

I get what you're saying, but who was it aimed at and what were you implying? Are you trying to say that despite the huge power boost Goku would still lose?

I would say that he was saying that to me...

P. S. I think.

[Ash57]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

[TheMikado]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

[TheUltimateNinja]

Snip.

I get what you're saying, but who was it aimed at and what were you implying? Are you trying to say that despite the huge power boost Goku would still lose?

I would say that he was saying that to me...

P. S. I think.

Well, to be honest I think you're actually underrating SSJ4 Goku. If he really has a 4000x multiplier he should easily wreck Buuhan even at full power.
For me personally I don't think the multiplier's actually 4000x because that's really overpowered, but if it is I don't see how he can lose to anyone besides Super Vegetto.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

It may be 10x SSJ instead of 10x SSJ3 in which case the multiplier would only be 500x.

[Ash57]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

Which is still a fan-made assumption because Super Saiyan 4 is implied to be stronger than Golden Great Ape twice in the GT Perfect Files

[TheMikado]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

It may be 10x SSJ instead of 10x SSJ3 in which case the multiplier would only be 500x.

But that's what we said in the beginning of this thread

I subscribe to the logical multiplier of the Oozaru form which is x10.

Starting at a base of 1 we know SSJ gives an x50 boost, using SSJ4 which is a combination of both should give a minimum of x500, so stronger than SSJ3s x400. Further because it's based on SSJ there should theoretically be advanced levels which corresponds to the other SSJ multiplers. In theory a SSJ4-2 would be x1000, which is what I think we get when Goku goes SSJ4 Full Power.

[TheMikado]

The canon boost for Super Saiyan 4 is "draw the power of the Saiyan to its limits" and that's it. 10x is something completely fan-made.
Analyzing Goku's limits in the Boo Saga, i don't think he would stand any chance against SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Gotenks or Gohan-Boo.

Gohan Past His Limits >>>> Gohan At His Limits >>>> Goku's Limits

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

Which is still a fan-made assumption because Super Saiyan 4 is implied to be stronger than Golden Great Ape twice in the GT Perfect Files

It is but considering SSJ4 Goku literally uses the phrase "10x..." it's a pretty darn good one with some actual evidence behind it.

[Steven Bloodriver]

I get what you're saying, but who was it aimed at and what were you implying? Are you trying to say that despite the huge power boost Goku would still lose?

I would say that he was saying that to me...

P. S. I think.

Well, to be honest I think you're actually underrating SSJ4 Goku. If he really has a 4000x multiplier he should easily wreck Buuhan even at full power.
For me personally I don't think the multiplier's actually 4000x because that's really overpowered, but if it is I don't see how he can lose to anyone besides Super Vegetto.

A hypothetical SSJ4 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) would absolutely destroy any form of Majin Buu; Kid Buu (an equal to Goku as a SSJ3), South Kaioshin Absorbed Kid Buu (who is not as strong as Buuhan), Innocent Buu (weaker than Goku as a SSJ3), Pure Evil Buu (only moderately stronger than Innocent Buu), Base Super Buu (somewhat weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks), SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is only a little more powerful than Ultimate Gohan), Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan), and perhaps even Buuhan himself (as seen in the fight with Son Goku, Vegeta, and their fusion as Vegito, Buuhan would hold back at first against his opponents before finally getting serious, but Super Saiyan 4 Goku would have not been holding himself back at all against the one who had killed most of his loved ones).

I posted this on the first page of this thread, TheUltimateNinja.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I would say that he was saying that to me...

P. S. I think.

Well, to be honest I think you're actually underrating SSJ4 Goku. If he really has a 4000x multiplier he should easily wreck Buuhan even at full power.
For me personally I don't think the multiplier's actually 4000x because that's really overpowered, but if it is I don't see how he can lose to anyone besides Super Vegetto.

A hypothetical SSJ4 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) would absolutely destroy any form of Majin Buu; Kid Buu (an equal to Goku as a SSJ3), South Kaioshin Absorbed Kid Buu (who is not as strong as Buuhan), Innocent Buu (weaker than Goku as a SSJ3), Pure Evil Buu (only moderately stronger than Innocent Buu), Base Super Buu (somewhat weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks), SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is only a little more powerful than Ultimate Gohan), Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan), and perhaps even Buuhan himself (as seen in the fight with Son Goku, Vegeta, and their fusion as Vegito, Buuhan would hold back at first against his opponents before finally getting serious, but Super Saiyan 4 Goku would have not been holding himself back at all against the one who had killed most of his loved ones).

I posted this on the first page of this thread, TheUltimateNinja.

That's exactly what I'm referring to, you say Goku could win if Buuhan holds back due to his arrogance, I'm saying even if Buuhan goes all out from the start Goku can still easily slaughter him due to the huge power gap. I'd say it'd be almost as humiliating as Vegetto vs Buuhan.

[Ash57]

10x is based on the oozaru form..........

Which is still a fan-made assumption because Super Saiyan 4 is implied to be stronger than Golden Great Ape twice in the GT Perfect Files

It is but considering SSJ4 Goku literally uses the phrase "10x..." it's a pretty darn good one with some actual evidence behind it.

He doesn't, unless you're referring to the technique "x10 Kamehameha" used by Goku, which doesn't prove anything considering it is simply a version of Kamehameha who generates ten times more power a normal one would.

Anyway, the thread asks whether or not SSJ4 Goku from Boo Arc would defeat Gohan. The answer would be a HUGE 'no', since Super Saiyan 4's canon boost is 'draws person's power to its limits' and Goku's limits aren't even close to Gohan's. I posted all the proof on the 1st page.

Combining four different sources, all of them being reliable, Goku wouldn't even scratch Ultimate Gohan.

[Steven Bloodriver]

Well, to be honest I think you're actually underrating SSJ4 Goku. If he really has a 4000x multiplier he should easily wreck Buuhan even at full power.
For me personally I don't think the multiplier's actually 4000x because that's really overpowered, but if it is I don't see how he can lose to anyone besides Super Vegetto.

A hypothetical SSJ4 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) would absolutely destroy any form of Majin Buu; Kid Buu (an equal to Goku as a SSJ3), South Kaioshin Absorbed Kid Buu (who is not as strong as Buuhan), Innocent Buu (weaker than Goku as a SSJ3), Pure Evil Buu (only moderately stronger than Innocent Buu), Base Super Buu (somewhat weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks), SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is only a little more powerful than Ultimate Gohan), Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo Absorbed Super Buu (as he is much weaker than Ultimate Gohan), and perhaps even Buuhan himself (as seen in the fight with Son Goku, Vegeta, and their fusion as Vegito, Buuhan would hold back at first against his opponents before finally getting serious, but Super Saiyan 4 Goku would have not been holding himself back at all against the one who had killed most of his loved ones).

I posted this on the first page of this thread, TheUltimateNinja.

That's exactly what I'm referring to, you say Goku could win if Buuhan holds back due to his arrogance, I'm saying even if Buuhan goes all out from the start Goku can still easily slaughter him due to the huge power gap. I'd say it'd be almost as humiliating as Vegetto vs Buuhan.

No, since the first sentence of my explanation has me saying that Goku as a Super Saiyan 4 would defeat any form of Majin Buu (from Pure Buu to Buuhan), and I was merely using as an example of Buuhan holding back as to show why SSJ4 Goku would win even easier against Buuhan; since the latter's arrogance had caused him to hold back at first in all of his fights in the DBZ anime.

1) Super Buu vs. Gotenks (Base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3), Super Buu held back much of his power against the base power and Super Saiyan power of Gotenks, but only started not doing so when Gotenks finally revealed he could go SSJ3.

2) Super Buu vs. Ultimate Gohan, Super Buu held back at first, but then went all-out once Ultimate Gohan proved to be much stronger than Gotenks.

3) Buutenks vs. Ultimate Gohan, the former held back in the anime, but quickly got serious when he found out that Ultimate Gohan could still hurt him.

4) Buutenks vs. Tien Shinhan, Buutenks held back the entire time against him.

5) Buutenks vs. SSJ3 Goku, the former held back against the latter the whole time.

6) Buuhan vs. SSJ1 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, the Pink Demon held back again against both of them.

7) Buuhan vs. Vegito, Buuhan would hold back before going at full power once Vegito went SSJ1.

Eight) Super Buu (Thought Form) vs. SSJ1 Goku and SSJ1 Vegeta, he held back until his life was in danger from Vegeta threatening to remove Good Buu from his body.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Which is still a fan-made assumption because Super Saiyan 4 is implied to be stronger than Golden Great Ape twice in the GT Perfect Files

It is but considering SSJ4 Goku literally uses the phrase "10x..." it's a pretty darn good one with some actual evidence behind it.

He doesn't, unless you're referring to the technique "x10 Kamehameha" used by Goku, which doesn't prove anything considering it is simply a version of Kamehameha who generates ten times more power a normal one would.

Anyway, the thread asks whether or not SSJ4 Goku from Boo Arc would defeat Gohan. The answer would be a 'no', since Super Saiyan 4's canon boost is 'draws person's power to its limits' and Goku's limits aren't even close to Gohan's. I posted all the proof on the 1st page

The Daizenshuu says the exact same thing about Super Saiyan 3:
"The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time."

[Ash57]

It is but considering SSJ4 Goku literally uses the phrase "10x..." it's a pretty darn good one with some actual evidence behind it.

He doesn't, unless you're referring to the technique "x10 Kamehameha" used by Goku, which doesn't prove anything considering it is simply a version of Kamehameha who generates ten times more power a normal one would.

Anyway, the thread asks whether or not SSJ4 Goku from Boo Arc would defeat Gohan. The answer would be a 'no', since Super Saiyan 4's canon boost is 'draws person's power to its limits' and Goku's limits aren't even close to Gohan's. I posted all the proof on the 1st page

The Daizenshuu says the exact same thing about Super Saiyan 3:
"The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time."

However, the SEG Guidebooks, which were released a decade later, say Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost.
Also, GT Perfect Files word on GT is equivalent to Toriyama's word on Z, whereas the Daizenshuu guidebooks, even though somewhat reliable, don't hold such regard.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He doesn't, unless you're referring to the technique "x10 Kamehameha" used by Goku, which doesn't prove anything considering it is simply a version of Kamehameha who generates ten times more power a normal one would.

Anyway, the thread asks whether or not SSJ4 Goku from Boo Arc would defeat Gohan. The answer would be a 'no', since Super Saiyan 4's canon boost is 'draws person's power to its limits' and Goku's limits aren't even close to Gohan's. I posted all the proof on the 1st page

The Daizenshuu says the exact same thing about Super Saiyan 3:
"The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time."

However, the SEG Guidebooks, which were released a decade later, say Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost.
Also, GT Perfect Files word on GT is equivalent to Toriyama's word on Z, whereas the Daizenshuu guidebooks, even though somewhat reliable, don't hold such regard.

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

[Lord Frieza]

I get what you're saying, but who was it aimed at and what were you implying? Are you trying to say that despite the huge power boost Goku would still lose?

I would say that he was saying that to me...

P. S. I think.

Well, to be honest I think you're actually underrating SSJ4 Goku. If he really has a 4000x multiplier he should easily wreck Buuhan even at full power.
For me personally I don't think the multiplier's actually 4000x because that's really overpowered, but if it is I don't see how he can lose to anyone besides Super Vegetto.

I was talking about the what I have read in the topic in general as well as other conversations relating to it I've seen/had in the passed regarding SS4 power multiplier in the passed.

As for in the Buu saga, Goku was pretty much out of his depth as soon as Super Buu showed up. Even at SS3 his power would prove insignificant.

Now as as super saiyan 4, Goku could very likely have beaten Super Buu and I'd even go so far as to say he would be be able to give Gohan a good fight. But the second Buu starts absorbing people then he doesn't stand a chance with Buutenks and Buuhan both being more then powerful enough to beat him.

[Ash57]

The Daizenshuu says the exact same thing about Super Saiyan 3:
"The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time."

However, the SEG Guidebooks, which were released a decade later, say Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost.
Also, GT Perfect Files word on GT is equivalent to Toriyama's word on Z, whereas the Daizenshuu guidebooks, even though somewhat reliable, don't hold such regard.

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.