Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Nejishiki]

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.

The Room of Spirit and Time used in Dragon Ball Super is refurbished. That applied to the version Piccolo sealed off, but it's not the case with its upgrade.

[omaro34]

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.

The Room of Spirit and Time used in Dragon Ball Super is refurbished. That applied to the version Piccolo sealed off, but it's not the case with its upgrade.

Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated.

[TheMikado]

As Marlowe said, it's important that the ability exists at all in universe and continuity. The crux of the argument was that they "should" be using rather than normal base. Basically it's a lot easier to make the argument that the writers/animators were "supposed" to be showing God base but misunderstood the concept and instead presented it as normal base.
Again the fact that the mechanism exists at all in the anime may indicate production errors and explain why things are all over the place.

[Bullza]

Beerus can lower his power output as much as he wants to, even with ki blasts. A poke from a 10% Beerus could easily be stronger than a blast from a Beerus operating at much less power.

It was an unrestrained Ki blast which he did when he was half asleep he didn't lower it's power output. A poke from Beerus at 10% isn't going to pack nearly as much power as he's unrestrained Ki blasts.

Either way, it's clear that Goku was running on God ki here as he couldn't be sensed throughout the entire fight and Beerus said that he made the power his own (and as we know, SSG's power source is God ki).

No they could sense him. As soon as he went back to Super Saiyan the Earthling characters back on Earth picked Goku's energy back up, which would actually mean he didn't have God Ki but still had all that power anyway.

Which would mean there is no difference in his power having God Ki or not.

Again, there's nothing to suggest or even remotely indicate how powerful Final Form Frieza was in relation to SSG Goku.

My comment t wasn't so much about that but more so that it would discredit the idea of there being a Base Goku without God Ki who was weaker than Namek saga Frieza and a Base Goku with God Ki who was stronger than a resurrected Frieza.

[Marlowe89]

It was an unrestrained Ki blast which he did when he was half asleep he didn't lower it's power output. A poke from Beerus at 10% isn't going to pack nearly as much power as he's unrestrained Ki blasts.

Look, you can repeat "unrestrained" all you want but you have no way of quantifying how much power was put into that blast. We can argue about this all day but it's still baseless speculation on your part so it's not a valid counterpoint. That's all there is to it, so you should probably move on to the main arguments that actually pertain to base Goku/Vegeta using God ki.

And besides, "restrain" by definition means to keep something within a certain limit, so it had to have been restrained since we know Beerus wasn't operating at full power anyway.

No they could sense him. As soon as he went back to Super Saiyan the Earthling characters back on Earth picked Goku's energy back up, which would actually mean he didn't have God Ki but still had all that power anyway.

Even if they could sense him, it doesn't really change my point. Beerus said that he was still running on power from SSG, and since SSG's power runs on God ki, we know that he had to have at least been partially running on God ki to fight Beerus at a similar level of strength.

And either way, it still doesn't change the fact that ki output runs out eventually so Goku would have eventually needed to learn how to generate God ki on his own.

Which would mean there is no difference in his power having God Ki or not.

Let's get off of BoG for a second. It was already confirmed that God ki is stronger than regular ki as I pointed out in my previous post, so it would absolutely make a difference under every other circumstance.

My comment t wasn't so much about that but more so that it would discredit the idea of there being a Base Goku without God Ki who was weaker than Namek saga Frieza and a Base Goku with God Ki who was stronger than a resurrected Frieza.

Your comment doesn't discredit that because Frieza doesn't use God ki. Again, I have to stress that we have no earthly idea where post-training Final Form Frieza stands in relation to SSG Goku, who would essentially be equal in strength to a base Goku with God ki.

I can't help but notice that you didn't address my other points.

[Bullza]

Look, you can repeat "unrestrained" all you want but you have no way of quantifying how much power was put into that blast. We can argue about this all day but it's still baseless speculation on your part so it's not a valid counterpoint.

What speculation? Vegeta specifically said that Beerus doesn't hold back when he's asleep. Against SSJ2 Vegeta he was holding 90% of his power back. That's simply just what they said.

Of course a Ki blast from Beerus not holding back is going to far far more powerful than poking someone while holding back the vast amount of his power.

Even if they could sense him, it doesn't really change my point. Beerus said that he was still running on power from SSG, and since SSG's power runs on God ki, we know that he had to have at least been partially running on God ki to fight Beerus at a similar level of strength.

Well it kinda does because he didn't have God Ki as a Super Saiyan or they wouldn't have been able to sense him. His God Ki disappearing did not affect his strenght. That much we know for sure.

Beerus said the power had merged with him. Toriyama said long ago before Resurrection F was a thing that he wouldn't need to turn into Super Saiyan God anymore. He should have that power permanently.

There was nothing to imply that he was just using up what was left in the tank otherwise he wouldn't have gained additional power during that fight. He should have only gotten weaker.

It was already confirmed that God ki is stronger than regular ki as I pointed out in my previous post, so it would absolutely make a difference under every other circumstance.

Questionably. Like I said that first instance you're referring to appeared to tease Super Saiyan Blue. That's stronger than Super Saiyan God so was that what they were referring to? Like I said there was nothing like that when in Whis' staff or ever since.

Your comment doesn't discredit that because Frieza doesn't use God ki.

That's not what I was getting at.

I can't help but notice that you didn't address my other points.

I'd rather this not become of those instances where the posts get steadily bigger each time, taking longer to type out each message and becoming a chore to reply to. I didn't have anything else to say about your other points, you said you didn't know how it worked.

[Marlowe89]

What speculation? Vegeta specifically said that Beerus doesn't hold back when he's asleep.

Yet he had to have been holding back with that blast because otherwise they would be dead or incapacitated as I pointed out previously. Whis already gave them an analogy of how tiny and insignificant they were compared to Beerus' full power.

There's no way around this, and you still can't quantify how much of Beerus' full power he was using with that blast so it's a moot point. Beerus has decreased his power to far lower than 10% before so there's no reason he couldn't have been in a suppressed state in that situation.

Beerus said the power had merged with him.

Again, that doesn't contradict the idea of Goku having held on to leftover remnants of SSG's power. In any case, Goku wasn't in his base state when this stuff was said so this isn't relevant to the main argument either.

There was nothing to imply that he was just using up what was left in the tank otherwise he wouldn't have gained additional power during that fight.

Except in Goku's own words in Episode 14, he says that he was getting ready to use the "last bit of his power" at the time it had increased. This means he was using up the remainder of his power.

Questionably. Like I said that first instance you're referring to appeared to tease Super Saiyan Blue. That's stronger than Super Saiyan God so was that what they were referring to? Like I said there was nothing like that when in Whis' staff or ever since.

What do you think Super Saiyan Blue is? It's the Super Saiyan form with God ki, so it's obvious that in the first instance they were actually manifesting God ki during their fist clash. They were in base throughout the entire thing. It's exactly the same thing that happened when they were training in Whis' staff because Vegeta did the same thing he did while sparring with Goku - he didn't let his ki leak after having raised it, then commented on feeling the pressure of God ki. You arguing that those involve different things is totally at odds with what is presented to us.

The overall point is this: the anime has shown us scenes of base Goku/Vegeta using God ki, and the anime has also shown us scenes of base Goku/Vegeta without God ki after the fact, and the anime has also confirmed that God ki is stronger than regular ki from Vegeta's comment. All of this presupposes two bases.

I didn't have anything else to say about your other points, you said you didn't know how it worked.

I said how it works is irrelevant since we know that it still works that way regardless.

[Bullza]

Yet he had to have been holding back with that blast because otherwise they would be dead or incapacitated as I pointed out previously.

They specifically went out of their way to say that Beerus wasn't holding back, twice. He wasn't holding back, they still weren't his best attacks, doesn't mean it's the same as if he were awake and at 100% and gave them a proper kick in the face.

You can't say he must have been holding back because they literally said the exact opposite. So I can say a blast when he was holding back was more powerful than a poke when he was holding back 90% of his power.

Again, that doesn't contradict the idea of Goku having held on to leftover remnants of SSG's power. In any case, Goku wasn't in his base state when this stuff was said so this isn't relevant to the main argument either.

But it's just an idea. There was never a thing to imply what you're saying. If he's getting stronger even after his God form has gone and even after his Super Saiyan form has gone then he's gaining power which does not work with the idea that he was just using the remainder of the left over power in him.

He was supposed to have merged that God power with his own power and that was supposed to be the end of it. It didn't run out, he doesn't turn it on or off, that's just supposed to be his power now.

Except in Goku's own words in Episode 14, he says that he was getting ready to use the "last bit of his power" at the time it had increased.

That could just be a comment about his power in general rather than tied to God Ki specifically.

The blue aura bits was the actual appearance of the "leaked" God ki, but that doesn't mean Vegeta and Goku didn't obtain it in Episode 22 considering that's specifically what Vegeta insinuated.

It's all dubious to me. The first time they're told not to let their Ki leak out, they punch and there's a blue aura. They go into the other dimension, they dont let their Ki leak out, they exchange punches and then there's no Blue aura at all.

Beerus doesn't comment on them being far more powerful after having learned this. He actually said that before they did.

And they did all that training in Whis' staff where they used God Ki in Base forms but then just didn't use that against Frieza or anyone else ever? The Base Goku and Vegeta fighting in Whis' staff where at a much higher level than the same Base Goku and Vegeta who fought Frieza, Frost, Magetta, Cabba, Copy Vegeta etc?

[Marlowe89]

He wasn't holding back, they still weren't his best attacks, doesn't mean it's the same as if he were awake and at 100% and gave them a proper kick in the face.

If they weren't his best attacks and he wasn't at 100% then that by definition means he was holding back or in a suppressed state. And since he wasn't at full power, we don't know how much of his power was actually used, which means you're using baseless speculation to prop up an equally baseless counterpoint that was clearly part of a gag scene anyway.

I'd rather just move on from this point because it's clearly going nowhere, and it has very little to do with the facts at hand that occurred during Whis' training.

If he's getting stronger even after his God form has gone and even after his Super Saiyan form has gone then he's gaining power which does not work with the idea that he was just using the remainder of the left over power in him.

Nothing in either Episode 13 or Episode 14 shows Goku getting stronger after his Super Saiyan form was gone. He nullified Beerus' final attack in base, but his attempt to nullify that attack started out with him in Super Saiyan so we know that his Super Saiyan state obviously contributed to his struggle against the blast.

If my notion that Goku held on to his leftover power is "just an idea" with nothing to imply it (which is wrong because Goku's statement that he was using the last bit of his power can be used as possible support for the theory), then your notion of base Goku being portrayed as being on SSG's level in the BoG arc is also completely unsupported because nothing ever implies that in the anime.

That could just be a comment about his power in general rather than tied to God Ki specifically.

Whether it's tied to God ki or not doesn't change the fact that he was running on the last fumes of his power because he specifically said he was. "SSG's power" in this context is different than God ki because the earthlings could sense him.

It's all dubious to me. The first time they're told not to let their Ki leak out, they punch and there's a blue aura. They go into the other dimension, they dont let their Ki leak out, they exchange punches and then there's no Blue aura at all.

First of all, they don't exchange punches in the other dimension.

Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared.

Beerus doesn't comment on them being far more powerful after having learned this. He actually said that before they did.

It doesn't matter. Once again, if Goku and Vegeta generating a new type of ki while clashing their fists in base (and we know it was God ki because that's what differentiates Blue and the ordinary Super Saiyan state), looking incredibly surprised as the blue aura appears, and then looking at their bodies with amazed expressions on their faces doesn't tell you that they became stronger in that moment while being in base FOR THE ENTIRE SCENE, then I think you're clearly in denial over what transpired in that episode.

And they did all that training in Whis' staff where they used God Ki in Base forms but then just didn't use that against Frieza or anyone else ever? The Base Goku and Vegeta fighting in Whis' staff where at a much higher level than the same Base Goku and Vegeta who fought Frieza, Frost, Magetta, Cabba, Copy Vegeta etc?

Exactly, and why would they need to? It's insinuated on multiple occasions in the anime that Goku and Vegeta choose to tap into God ki when they transform into Blue - a God ki imbued Super Saiyan is a more powerful form than a God ki imbued base, and Toei likely didn't want to confuse the viewers by showing two different bases in combat situations with no obvious way to discern the difference in their appearance.

[Noah]

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.

Yep. But RoSaT rules were retconected in Super, now they can train (anytime?) they want without time limit. Goku and Vegeta trained for straight three days inside there.

[Nejishiki]

Retroactive continuity wasn't at play. The Room of Spirit and Time of old was not changed. Its use after being sealed off by Piccolo is accompanied with an explanation that it's upgraded.

[MajinVegetaPD]

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.

Yep. But RoSaT rules were retconected in Super, now they can train (anytime?) they want without time limit. Goku and Vegeta trained for straight three days inside there.

I still don't know why they went in there for 3 years with no explanation of any power/ability gains whatsoever. It seems like it was a complete waste, with the exception of Goku practicing Kaioken without Vegeta noticing somehow?

I think the whole thing was unnecessary......and now we are being led to believe that Vegeta goes in there for a half a day and comes out significantly stronger, forcing Black and Zamasu to merge? It's really just all over the place.

[TheMikado]

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.

Yep. But RoSaT rules were retconected in Super, now they can train (anytime?) they want without time limit. Goku and Vegeta trained for straight three days inside there.

I still don't know why they went in there for 3 years with no explanation of any power/ability gains whatsoever. It seems like it was a complete waste, with the exception of Goku practicing Kaioken without Vegeta noticing somehow?

I think the whole thing was unnecessary......and now we are being led to believe that Vegeta goes in there for a half a day and comes out significantly stronger, forcing Black and Zamasu to merge? It's really just all over the place.

Yeah, during the tournament I was expecting to see the results of their training. Instead I got .... SSJ yellow and SSBxKK. Honestly I didn't even want to harp on the sudden upper with less training as I'm just throwing penny's in a bottomless well at this point.

[Helios518]

Yep. But RoSaT rules were retconected in Super, now they can train (anytime?) they want without time limit. Goku and Vegeta trained for straight three days inside there.

I still don't know why they went in there for 3 years with no explanation of any power/ability gains whatsoever. It seems like it was a complete waste, with the exception of Goku practicing Kaioken without Vegeta noticing somehow?

I think the whole thing was unnecessary......and now we are being led to believe that Vegeta goes in there for a half a day and comes out significantly stronger, forcing Black and Zamasu to merge? It's really just all over the place.

Yeah, during the tournament I was expecting to see the results of their training. Instead I got .... SSJ yellow and SSBxKK. Honestly I didn't even want to harp on the sudden upper with less training as I'm just throwing penny's in a bottomless well at this point.

SSJ Yellow for Goku/Vegeta was the worst thing that the arc brought back in terms of PL.

[Marlowe89]

I almost want to say that Toei brought the golden forms back to Goku and Vegeta for merchandising reasons, but then they were also brought back in the manga too so who knows if it was something Toriyama had a hand in? I can agree that their justification for it wasn't as spoonfed as it probably should've been.

[TheMikado]

I almost want to say that Toei brought the golden forms back to Goku and Vegeta for merchandising reasons, but then they were also brought back in the manga too so who knows? I can agree that their justification for it wasn't as spoonfed as it probably should've been.

Well the manga was pretty explicit on how it worked. Showing all SSJ levels under God and then SSB. We have no idea where the God ki base form should be in the anime.

[buutenks]

I almost want to say that Toei brought the golden forms back to Goku and Vegeta for merchandising reasons, but then they were also brought back in the manga too so who knows? I can agree that their justification for it wasn't as spoonfed as it probably should've been.

Well the manga was pretty explicit on how it worked. Showing all SSJ levels under God and then SSB. We have no idea where the God ki base form should be in the anime.

Dont think there is a god ki base form. Goku's base form can be sensed by non gods. Just means his base got a massive upgrade in the anime. So it is still like the manga minus ssg and the gap between ssj1-3 and blue isnt as big as in the manga.

[TheMikado]

I almost want to say that Toei brought the golden forms back to Goku and Vegeta for merchandising reasons, but then they were also brought back in the manga too so who knows? I can agree that their justification for it wasn't as spoonfed as it probably should've been.

Well the manga was pretty explicit on how it worked. Showing all SSJ levels under God and then SSB. We have no idea where the God ki base form should be in the anime.

Dont think there is a god ki base form. Goku's base form can be sensed by non gods. Just means his base got a massive upgrade in the anime. So it is still like the manga minus ssg and the gap between ssj1-3 and blue isnt as big as in the manga.

The anime explicitly shows them using God ki in base. Something that has been argued against .

[buutenks]

The anime explicitly shows them using God ki in base. Something that has been argued against .

When was that?

[TheMikado]

The anime explicitly shows them using God ki in base. Something that has been argued against .

When was that?

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