Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Rubens]

I'm sorry, but those scenes don't prove the "two-base theory" is real. In the scenes, you see them achieving and learning to control god ki. If I ever see being stated, whether in the manga or the anime, that they have "another base form imbued with god ki" (or something like that) ther than their normal state, then yes it will be confirmed. Until then, it's nothing more than an interpretation.

Besides, how does that even work? Is it like: normal ki base -> normal ki ssj -> normal ki ssj2 -> normal ki ssj3 -> god ki base -> god ki ssj -> god ki ssj2 -> god ki ssj3 -> ssjgod -> ssjblue? Or like: normal ki base -> normal ki ssj -> normal ki ssj2 -> normal ki ssj3 -> god ki base -> ssjgod -> ssjblue? Either way, it's awfully confusing.

[TheMikado]

I'm sorry, but those scenes don't prove the "two-base theory" is real. In the scenes, you see them achieving and learning to control god ki. If I ever see being stated, whether in the manga or the anime, that they have "another base form imbued with god ki" (or something like that) ther than their normal state, then yes it will be confirmed. Until then, it's nothing more than an interpretation.

Besides, how does that even work? Is it like: normal ki base -> normal ki ssj -> normal ki ssj2 -> normal ki ssj3 -> god ki base -> god ki ssj -> god ki ssj2 -> god ki ssj3 -> ssjgod -> ssjblue? Or like: normal ki base -> normal ki ssj -> normal ki ssj2 -> normal ki ssj3 -> god ki base -> ssjgod -> ssjblue? Either way, it's awfully confusing.

Yea I'm not attempting to figure anything out. The argument has been that they must use SSB to access God ki and I'm stating that they don't and that they can access God ki in their base states as well. Basically they can choose when they access it rather than it being locked to a specific transformation.

[Marlowe89]

In the scenes, you see them achieving and learning to control god ki. If I ever see being stated, whether in the manga or the anime, that they have "another base form imbued with god ki" (or something like that) ther than their normal state, then yes it will be confirmed. Until then, it's nothing more than an interpretation.

Well you admit that they were learning God ki while in base, but the problem is that we know they can't be sensed when using God ki yet they are able to be sensed by the earthlings and other Saiyans at many points in the anime even after their training. That's why the two base interpretation seems valid on a technical level - because Toei seems to have strongly implied that they can switch between the two different ki types without transforming.

[buutenks]

Well i dont think it matters how strong Goku and Vegeta's base forms r. Based on the anime, Trunks isnt that far behind them.

And if they can switch from regular base form to god ki base form which is as strong if not stronger than ssg, then Trunks' power is totally inconsistent. He should have been finger flicked away by Future Zamasu, who can go toe to toe with a ssj blue.

But i guess there are scenes backing it up.

Namely:

Base Goku doing so well vs Hit
Base Goku fighting Beerus
Base Copy Vegeta no selling ssj3 Gotenks' blows
ssj2 Trunks unable to sense God Ki, but base Goku can

Ofc the inconsistencies:

Future Zamasu got from ssj2 BOG saga level to ssj blue level with no mention of his power increase(tho i guess one can say he trained to surpass the Goku that beat him, so i guess it isnt to far fetched)
Trunks got from getting one shotted by bog level ssj3 Goku and played around with by ssj blue Vegeta to holding his own against Future Zamasu who equaled ssj blue Goku.

Actually now that i think about it. The only problem here is Trunks' power inflation, since Zamasu had 17 or so years to increase from his former power to his current ssg level, which makes sense since Goku said he can become as powerful as Beerus one day.

So, i guess Trunks is the inconsistent one.

Hmm, they should have just given him the new form from the get go, then him taking on Black Rose and Future Zamasu wouldnt be so inconsistent.

But then, base Trunks pretty much kicked ssj kid Trunks' butt with 0 effort.

Edit; Tho if these inconsistencies must exist to get nice kick ass action scenes, then i am all on board.

[TheMikado]

^ that's what people who follow the two base theory have been saying all along.

[Marlowe89]

I never really got the impression that Zamasu was that strong. He's just immortal/invincible so he can basically no-sell any attack and assist Black when needed.

[buutenks]

I never really got the impression that Zamasu was that strong. He's just immortal/invincible so he can basically no-sell any attack and assist Black when needed.

Well, thing is, he can hurt ssj blue Goku and vegeta with his ki blasts and physical hits, plus is able to dodge and block attacks of that level without getting his hands blown off or ripped. Someone many times weaker cannot do this.

I understand him tanking and stuff. But overpowering ssj blue Goku, even hurting him with hits and ki blasts? nah needs to be close.

Also, Goku after clashing with Future Zamasu says that it is different from when he fought him in the present.

^ that's what people who follow the two base theory have been saying all along.

That Trunks' showings are inconsistent?

Granted, Trunks did get a rage boost in ep 57.

[TheMikado]

Yes, People have been saying that it would help explain the inconsistencies throughout the entire series and that a Trunks was inconsistent. The two base theory was first really used to rationalize the Piccolo vs Frost fight and the power levels in universe 6 arc.

It's basically been speculated the that writers and animators messed up and are sure when they really are base vs base w/ God ki.

[Marlowe89]

Well, thing is, he can hurt ssj blue Goku and vegeta with his ki blasts and physical hits, plus is able to dodge and block attacks of that level without getting his hands blown off or ripped. Someone many times weaker cannot do this.

I understand him tanking and stuff. But overpowering ssj blue Goku, even hurting him with hits and ki blasts? nah needs to be close.

Fair point. It's just that Zamasu didn't seem to actually do that much compared to Black who still seemed to steal the show even after Zamasu showed up.

I suppose it is the future after all and Zamasu is a prodigy as well as a god, so I guess it's not unthinkable that he can approach the SSG/SSB tier after so many years.

[HeroR]

Well, thing is, he can hurt ssj blue Goku and vegeta with his ki blasts and physical hits, plus is able to dodge and block attacks of that level without getting his hands blown off or ripped. Someone many times weaker cannot do this.

I understand him tanking and stuff. But overpowering ssj blue Goku, even hurting him with hits and ki blasts? nah needs to be close.

Fair point. It's just that Zamasu didn't seem to actually do that much compared to Black who still seemed to steal the show even after Zamasu showed up.

I suppose it is the future after all and Zamasu is a prodigy as well as a god, so I guess it's not unthinkable that he can approach the SSG/SSB tier after so many years.

Goku did say if given time Zamasu could surpass Beerus someday. So him gaining so much power shouldn't be that shocking.

[Legion]

Goku only said that Zamusu has the potential to become a strong God like Beerus, is different. But i don't think that Goku fully realizes how powerfull Beerus really is, anyway.

A tier list for me could be in this way

Zeno
Zeno's bodyguards?
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa


Black Goku
Hit?
Trunks power up?
Goku
Vegeta (for now. I wait episode 63)
Future Zamasu (is immortal, but he's not stronger than Goku/Vegeta)
Golden Frieza

Don't care about the others.

[Rubens]

In the scenes, you see them achieving and learning to control god ki. If I ever see being stated, whether in the manga or the anime, that they have "another base form imbued with god ki" (or something like that) ther than their normal state, then yes it will be confirmed. Until then, it's nothing more than an interpretation.

Well you admit that they were learning God ki while in base, but the problem is that we know they can't be sensed when using God ki yet they are able to be sensed by the earthlings and other Saiyans at many points in the anime even after their training. That's why the two base interpretation seems valid on a technical level - because Toei seems to have strongly implied that they can switch between the two different ki types without transforming.

I understand, but why two bases? Can't we just assume that they simply have one very strong base as is? Even if we could say that somehow "part" of their base ki is godly, and what the other characters sense is their normal ki which tipically ocuppies a larger portion of their total ki? That way, when they turn ssjblue, their ki is converted into 100% godly ki. At least something along those lines.

[Bullza]

If they weren't his best attacks and he wasn't at 100% then that by definition means he was holding back or in a suppressed state.

He was at 100% but they still weren't his best attacks. He was at 100% power and not holding back and he caught them with his tail and he caught them with his foot. He hit them with a mouth blast at 100% aswell. That's not like being at 100% and giving them a proper martial arts kick to the face or firing up his universal busting blasts.

But these attacks still hurt Base Goku a lot more than the proper punches and kicks he was receiving as Super Saiyan/God/Base Goku and those attacks would have been far more powerful than the poke that took SSJ2 Vegeta out.

Nothing in either Episode 13 or Episode 14 shows Goku getting stronger after his Super Saiyan form was gone. He nullified Beerus' final attack in base, but his attempt to nullify that attack started out with him in Super Saiyan so we know that his Super Saiyan state obviously contributed to his struggle against the blast.

He was shown to get more powerful as a Super Saiyan so where is he gaining power from? If he'd just kept the remainder of Super Saiyan God's power and that was just supposed to run out then how is he getting stronger?

Beerus' blast was forcing him back as a Super Saiyan. He turned back into his Base form where he then destroyed it by punching it.

Again in the movie he turned into a Super Saiyan God when he stopped Beerus' blast which didn't make sense. Them having it so that he destroyed it in Base form could be their way of showing that he had become as strong as SSJG in Base and fixing the movies "mistake".

Whether it's tied to God ki or not doesn't change the fact that he was running on the last fumes of his power because he specifically said he was.

But that doesn't mean that that power wasn't going to come back. It doesn't mean that once he'd used up the last bit of his power then that was gone for good. It couldn't have anyway because he was still drastically more powerful than before in Base even half a year afterwards.

First of all, they don't exchange punches in the other dimension.

They were shown fighting in the other dimension. There were no blue auras or sparks that resembled what they did previously. That blue aura that they have when they turn Super Saiyan Blue and what Zamasu referred to as them being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods. Where was that in Whis' staff?

It doesn't matter.

It does matter. We also know for a fact that Goku lost his God Ki when fighting Beerus and yet not only did his strenght not decrease at all it actually continued increasing.

You're saying Goku apparently gets stronger in Base form when using God Ki and yet even after he'd supposedly just learned it in Whis' staff he then immediately goes to fight Frieza...and doesnt use this power at all for some unexplained reason. Nor do they seem to use it in Base at any point afterward.

Likewise as I said they came out and neither Beerus or Whis said anything about it or them getting strong or Goku reclaiming his SSJG power.

Exactly, and why would they need to?

Why wouldn't they? If they'd just learned a power that can make them SSJG level in Base why are they not using it ever? Why is never mentioned? Why does nobody say that it makes them stronger?

You say it'd confuse people by showing two different bases. Why would there have needed to have been two different bases? You'd just have the one Base Goku who uses God Ki and can't be sensed. There wouldn't have needed to have been a Base Goku who doesn't use God Ki even though he'd just learnt it.

What it comes down to simply is that Base Goku was shown to be SSJG level after fighting Beerus. They never said that his power had dropped or his SSJG power had run out after fighting him. When you then take into account things that were shown in other media like the Resurrection F manga or Toriyama's comments then this also does not imply it.

[TheMikado]

In the scenes, you see them achieving and learning to control god ki. If I ever see being stated, whether in the manga or the anime, that they have "another base form imbued with god ki" (or something like that) ther than their normal state, then yes it will be confirmed. Until then, it's nothing more than an interpretation.

Well you admit that they were learning God ki while in base, but the problem is that we know they can't be sensed when using God ki yet they are able to be sensed by the earthlings and other Saiyans at many points in the anime even after their training. That's why the two base interpretation seems valid on a technical level - because Toei seems to have strongly implied that they can switch between the two different ki types without transforming.

I understand, but why two bases? Can't we just assume that they simply have one very strong base as is? Even if we could say that somehow "part" of their base ki is godly, and what the other characters sense is their normal ki which tipically ocuppies a larger portion of their total ki? That way, when they turn ssjblue, their ki is converted into 100% godly ki. At least something along those lines.

That's not really what the show is telling us though. It basically shows they can turn on God ki by preventing their ki from leaking. It shows that they, in theory can do this in base and it doesn't seem to be specific to a form.

It doesn't have to be anything, that's just what the show is telling us. As far as mixing ki, the show doesn't state it's possible but I suppose if they let it leak a little then it would be mixed. Unfortunately I don't see the point of that at all. Further why not just prevent all ki from leaking all the time??

[Marlowe89]

He was at 100% but they still weren't his best attacks.

If they weren't his best attacks then he wasn't, BY DEFINITION, using 100% of his power for the blast itself. He was using a fraction of his full power output. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

He was shown to get more powerful as a Super Saiyan so where is he gaining power from?

Beerus' blast was forcing him back as a Super Saiyan. He turned back into his Base form where he then destroyed it by punching it.

Saiyans naturally become stronger as fights progress, as Toriyama said himself in his BoG interview, and at the time he was said to be stronger he still had plenty of SSG's power left over because he hadn't made the "last bit of my power" comment until towards the end.

Beerus' blast may have been forcing him back as a Super Saiyan but we still don't know whether his struggle was able to weaken the blast beforehand. Even if he wasn't, base Goku wasn't faring any better until that giant punch at the very end so already his strength was inconsistent - none of this matters anyway because it's still consistent with my argument that Goku possibly may have been holding on to SSG's remnants of power, even in base.

Again in the movie he turned into a Super Saiyan God when he stopped Beerus' blast which didn't make sense. Them having it so that he destroyed it in Base form could be their way of showing that he had become as strong as SSJG in Base and fixing the movies "mistake".

No, I think that's just on you for assuming it was a mistake to begin with.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let me reiterate that everything in BoG that we're debating about above this line is speculation on my part and thus not important to the main discussion we're having, which was the anime showing Goku/Vegeta tapping into God ki in base and becoming stronger as a result.

They were shown fighting in the other dimension. There were no blue auras or sparks that resembled what they did previously. That blue aura that they have when they turn Super Saiyan Blue and what Zamasu referred to as them being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods. Where was that in Whis' staff?

They fought in the other dimension, but not in the scene I'm referring to where Vegeta mentions God ki.

As for the rest of your point, I already addressed this in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It does matter.

No it doesn't because it's completely irrelevant to the scenes where we were shown that they had improved using God ki.

You're saying Goku apparently gets stronger in Base form when using God Ki.

That's not what I'm saying, that's what Vegeta's saying. I'm just pointing it out. You seem to be the one having a problem with what's clearly insinuated by the dialogue.

Why does nobody say that it makes them stronger?

Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you.

By the way, when I say that Toei most likely didn't want to confuse viewers, I'm speculating on that point. Nobody knows WHY they didn't use their God ki base states after their training, we just know that those states exist and we also know that those states are stronger than their base states without God ki.

[Helios518]

He was at 100% but they still weren't his best attacks.

If they weren't his best attacks then he wasn't, BY DEFINITION, using 100% of his power. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

He was shown to get more powerful as a Super Saiyan so where is he gaining power from?

Beerus' blast was forcing him back as a Super Saiyan. He turned back into his Base form where he then destroyed it by punching it.

Saiyans naturally become stronger as fights progress, as Toriyama said himself in his BoG interview, and at the time he was said to be stronger he still had plenty of SSG's power left over because he hadn't made the "last bit of my power" comment until towards the end.

Beerus' blast may have been forcing him back as a Super Saiyan but we still don't know whether his struggle was able to weaken the blast beforehand. Even if he wasn't, base Goku wasn't faring any better until that giant punch at the very end so already his strength was inconsistent - none of this matters anyway because it's still consistent with my argument that Goku possibly may have been holding on to SSG's remnants of power, even in base.

Again in the movie he turned into a Super Saiyan God when he stopped Beerus' blast which didn't make sense. Them having it so that he destroyed it in Base form could be their way of showing that he had become as strong as SSJG in Base and fixing the movies "mistake".

No, I think that's just on you for assuming it was a mistake to begin with.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let me reiterate that everything in BoG that we're debating about above this line is speculation on my part and thus not important to the main discussion we're having, which was the anime showing Goku/Vegeta tapping into God ki in base and becoming stronger as a result.

They were shown fighting in the other dimension. There were no blue auras or sparks that resembled what they did previously. That blue aura that they have when they turn Super Saiyan Blue and what Zamasu referred to as them being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods. Where was that in Whis' staff?

They fought in the other dimension, but not in the scene I'm referring to where Vegeta mentions God ki.

As for the rest of your point, I already addressed this in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It does matter.

No it doesn't because it's completely irrelevant to the scenes where we were shown that they had improved using God ki.

You're saying Goku apparently gets stronger in Base form when using God Ki.

That's not what I'm saying, that's what Vegeta's saying. I'm just pointing it out. You seem to be the one having a problem with what's clearly insinuated by the dialogue.

Why does nobody say that it makes them stronger?

Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you.

By the way, when I say that Toei most likely didn't want to confuse viewers, I'm speculating on that point. Nobody knows WHY they didn't use their God ki base states after their training, we just know that those states exist and we also know that those states are stronger than their base states without God ki.

For the first statement there's a difference between using your best attack and using 100% of your power.

Using 100% of you power could be just that. You could punch, kick, shoot normal blasts.

Using your best attack is completely different. You see Goku blow up half of Cell with a kamehameha but don't see him do so when punching Cell, You see Goku and Piccolo use ki attacks stronger than their physical limits back during Raditz, you see Vegeta shoot an attack also stronger than his limits, also Genkidama exists.

[Marlowe89]

What I'm saying is that regardless of whether Beerus himself was at 100%, we don't know how much or how little ki he was generating for his mouth blast specifically so there's no way of telling what those attacks were capable of as far as scale is concerned.

I'm not sure I'm inclined to believe the "unrestrained" comment anyway given that Beerus has lied about his strength before.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He was at 100% but they still weren't his best attacks.

If they weren't his best attacks then he wasn't, BY DEFINITION, using 100% of his power. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

He was shown to get more powerful as a Super Saiyan so where is he gaining power from?

Beerus' blast was forcing him back as a Super Saiyan. He turned back into his Base form where he then destroyed it by punching it.

Saiyans naturally become stronger as fights progress, as Toriyama said himself in his BoG interview, and at the time he was said to be stronger he still had plenty of SSG's power left over because he hadn't made the "last bit of my power" comment until towards the end.

Beerus' blast may have been forcing him back as a Super Saiyan but we still don't know whether his struggle was able to weaken the blast beforehand. Even if he wasn't, base Goku wasn't faring any better until that giant punch at the very end so already his strength was inconsistent - none of this matters anyway because it's still consistent with my argument that Goku possibly may have been holding on to SSG's remnants of power, even in base.

Again in the movie he turned into a Super Saiyan God when he stopped Beerus' blast which didn't make sense. Them having it so that he destroyed it in Base form could be their way of showing that he had become as strong as SSJG in Base and fixing the movies "mistake".

No, I think that's just on you for assuming it was a mistake to begin with.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let me reiterate that everything in BoG that we're debating about above this line is speculation on my part and thus not important to the main discussion we're having, which was the anime showing Goku/Vegeta tapping into God ki in base and becoming stronger as a result.

They were shown fighting in the other dimension. There were no blue auras or sparks that resembled what they did previously. That blue aura that they have when they turn Super Saiyan Blue and what Zamasu referred to as them being cloaked in the Ki of the Gods. Where was that in Whis' staff?

They fought in the other dimension, but not in the scene I'm referring to where Vegeta mentions God ki.

As for the rest of your point, I already addressed this in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It does matter.

No it doesn't because it's completely irrelevant to the scenes where we were shown that they had improved using God ki.

You're saying Goku apparently gets stronger in Base form when using God Ki.

That's not what I'm saying, that's what Vegeta's saying. I'm just pointing it out. You seem to be the one having a problem with what's clearly insinuated by the dialogue.

Why does nobody say that it makes them stronger?

Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you.

By the way, when I say that Toei most likely didn't want to confuse viewers, I'm speculating on that point. Nobody knows WHY they didn't use their God ki base states after their training, we just know that those states exist and we also know that those states are stronger than their base states without God ki.

For the first statement there's a difference between using your best attack and using 100% of your power.

Using 100% of you power could be just that. You could punch, kick, shoot normal blasts.

Using your best attack is completely different. You see Goku blow up half of Cell with a kamehameha but don't see him do so when punching Cell, You see Goku and Piccolo use ki attacks stronger than their physical limits back during Raditz, you see Vegeta shoot an attack also stronger than his limits, also Genkidama exists.

At that point in the series Beerus should be at least 40-50x as strong as Goku and Vegeta so even a casual ki blast from him at 100% should erase them from existence.

[Helios518]

If they weren't his best attacks then he wasn't, BY DEFINITION, using 100% of his power. Why is this so hard for you to understand?



Saiyans naturally become stronger as fights progress, as Toriyama said himself in his BoG interview, and at the time he was said to be stronger he still had plenty of SSG's power left over because he hadn't made the "last bit of my power" comment until towards the end.

Beerus' blast may have been forcing him back as a Super Saiyan but we still don't know whether his struggle was able to weaken the blast beforehand. Even if he wasn't, base Goku wasn't faring any better until that giant punch at the very end so already his strength was inconsistent - none of this matters anyway because it's still consistent with my argument that Goku possibly may have been holding on to SSG's remnants of power, even in base.



No, I think that's just on you for assuming it was a mistake to begin with.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let me reiterate that everything in BoG that we're debating about above this line is speculation on my part and thus not important to the main discussion we're having, which was the anime showing Goku/Vegeta tapping into God ki in base and becoming stronger as a result.



They fought in the other dimension, but not in the scene I'm referring to where Vegeta mentions God ki.

As for the rest of your point, I already addressed this in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."



No it doesn't because it's completely irrelevant to the scenes where we were shown that they had improved using God ki.



That's not what I'm saying, that's what Vegeta's saying. I'm just pointing it out. You seem to be the one having a problem with what's clearly insinuated by the dialogue.



Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you.

By the way, when I say that Toei most likely didn't want to confuse viewers, I'm speculating on that point. Nobody knows WHY they didn't use their God ki base states after their training, we just know that those states exist and we also know that those states are stronger than their base states without God ki.

For the first statement there's a difference between using your best attack and using 100% of your power.

Using 100% of you power could be just that. You could punch, kick, shoot normal blasts.

Using your best attack is completely different. You see Goku blow up half of Cell with a kamehameha but don't see him do so when punching Cell, You see Goku and Piccolo use ki attacks stronger than their physical limits back during Raditz, you see Vegeta shoot an attack also stronger than his limits, also Genkidama exists.

At that point in the series Beerus should be at least 40-50x as strong as Goku and Vegeta so even a casual ki blast from him at 100% should erase them from existence.

I'm not arguing for that, Only for the difference between best attack and using 100% power.

[Bullza]

If they weren't his best attacks then he wasn't, BY DEFINITION, using 100% of his power. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I don't know how you aren't getting this. He was at 100% power but didn't use his best attacks at 100% power. If you take Frieza at 100% power on Namek, him punching Goku in the face is going to hurt him a lot more than if he poked him.

It was Beerus at 100% catching Goku with his tail. It hurt Goku more than the punches he received from a non 100% Beerus when he was a Super Saiyan God.

100% Tail Whip >> The punches Beerus was hitting SSJG Goku with >> 10% Head poke

Beerus' blast may have been forcing him back as a Super Saiyan but we still don't know whether his struggle was able to weaken the blast beforehand. Even if he wasn't, base Goku wasn't faring any better until that giant punch at the very end so already his strength was inconsistent

I don't recall anytime where holding back a ball of energy briefly made the blast weaker. He was shown to struggle against it as a Super Saiyan, Beerus then added even more power to it making it bigger. Goku went back to base form and he instantly threw a punch and destroyed it.

He doesn't have to be stronger in Base form but he had to have been on that same level at least in order to do that and he did not have God Ki.

No, I think that's just on you for assuming it was a mistake to begin with.

It is assuming but I do think it's right. In the movie they said he'd absorbed the power and then two minutes later he turned right back into it again anyway. By having not that happen but having Base form destroy it instead would appear to fit with what said by Toriyama about him absorbing it and not needing to turn into again and the whole Saiyan Beyond God thing.

We know the anime has fixed some mistakes with the movies already and that could be one more.

They fought in the other dimension, but not in the scene I'm referring to where Vegeta mentions God ki.

Makes no difference, if they could only move by using this God Ki then they would have had to have been using it when they were fighting in that dimension and yet there's no Blue aura or sparks to be shown.

If they're showing blue sparks and the SSJB aura in one instance and then in another they aren't at all, then it's not the exact same.

Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you.

I'm not implying they didn't get stronger as it's a bona fide fact that when Goku lost his God Ki in his battle with Beerus he did not lose any of his strenght and still got stronger without God Ki.

He was very clearly shown to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base form and it was never said anywhere that he lost that power. The complete opposite was said by Toriyama in that it had become a part of him. He never said that this power ran out. The show never said that the power never ran out. Again it was shown he was still vastly more powerful than before many more the after this fight.

Nobody knows WHY they didn't use their God ki base states after their training, we just know that those states exist and we also know that those states are stronger than their base states without God ki.

Well clearly not otherwise it would have been used. If they were shown to be perfectly adapt at fighting using this God Ki in the other dimension and it made them drastically stronger then there was zero reason for them not to use this same power when fighting Frieza immediately afterwards.

God Ki didn't make any difference when fighting Beerus. Nothing suggested he got weaker since fighting Beerus at all so he should already be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base regardless which is what other things already suggested anyway.