Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

For the first statement there's a difference between using your best attack and using 100% of your power.

Using 100% of you power could be just that. You could punch, kick, shoot normal blasts.

Using your best attack is completely different. You see Goku blow up half of Cell with a kamehameha but don't see him do so when punching Cell, You see Goku and Piccolo use ki attacks stronger than their physical limits back during Raditz, you see Vegeta shoot an attack also stronger than his limits, also Genkidama exists.

At that point in the series Beerus should be at least 40-50x as strong as Goku and Vegeta so even a casual ki blast from him at 100% should erase them from existence.

I'm not arguing for that, Only for the difference between best attack and using 100% power.

I get what you're saying, but with that kind of gap it doesn't matter what attack you use. In the series we've seen characters with an advantage of only 2x-3x effortlessly kill their opponents without even trying, with Beerus' far larger advantage over Goku and Vegeta any attack from him at 100% should be fatal.

[Helios518]

At that point in the series Beerus should be at least 40-50x as strong as Goku and Vegeta so even a casual ki blast from him at 100% should erase them from existence.

I'm not arguing for that, Only for the difference between best attack and using 100% power.

I get what you're saying, but with that kind of gap it doesn't matter what attack you use. In the series we've seen characters with an advantage of only 2x-3x effortlessly kill their opponents without even trying, with Beerus' far larger advantage over Goku and Vegeta any attack from him at 100% should be fatal.

I know this actually I use this argument sometimes but if you're going to tell anyone this then argue with the person that believes Beerus used 100% of his power and not me.

[Zamasu55]

Here's my list.
Just added Enraged Ssj2Trunks, I put him on the same level as SsjB Goku and Vegeta.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Future Zamasu.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Enraged Ssj2 Trunks.
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Here's my list.
Just added Enraged Ssj2Trunks, I put him on the same level as SsjB Goku and Vegeta.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

These are the strongest characters of the show.

Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Future Zamasu.
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Enraged Ssj2 Trunks.
Golden Frieza.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

I disagree with your placement of Hit, I think Kkx10 Goku is considerably above him and the only reason he lost to Hit was because he was unable to maintain that power for very long.

[LowRyder2005]

Butting in. Let me preface that "restraining oneself" is a very hazy, and more importantly semantic, concept in the first place. Restraining yourself in this particular context means a conscious act through which you try not to use your full power. It does feel off, however, to claim that "not restraining" means "one is using 100% of your power as well: it doesn't really apply to Dragon Ball, but in real life you could argue that you could gently poke a person without restraining yourself... if your intention is poking that person gently. You can throw a punch restraining yourself as well - technically - just because you'd be consciously exterting only 90% of your strength and holding back a 10%.
If you want another example, take Freeza: he naturally sits at 70%-ish, to reach his 100% he needs to force his body to power-up. Given that someone who uses ki needs to consciously put some power in a ki blast, if Freeza was sleeping in his First Form and started shooting ki blasts in his sleep he could probably exert a force going from 1 to 530,000 without "restraining himself", alas without dosing the amount of ki properly. Of course, if we start to deepen our analysis and claim that there is another bottle-neck of the sorts, Freeza consciously choosing to stay in his first form the conclusions naturally change. Again, you can see for yourself how strictly contextual talking about "restriction" is.

In short, an "unrestrained" blast from an "unrestrained" Beerus just means that Beerus wasn't aware of the strength he would put in the blast. It doesn't necessarily mean that Beerus was using 100% of his power. In other words, an "unrestrained Beerus" is not necessarily synonymous with a "100% Beerus". He could have been using 10%, 1% or 90% of his strength. He could've have even used less strength than back when he was fighting against SS3 Goku in "Battle of Gods", although I'd be dubious about it.

To corroborate, if you want a more empirical proof, we know that Beerus far surpasses Super Saiyan Blue Goku [*10 in the anime]; this would mean a blast from a 100% Beerus would have killed Goku and Vegeta immediately... probably alongside a galaxy or two.

[Marlowe89]

Butting in. Let me preface that "restraining oneself" is a very hazy, and more importantly semantic, concept in the first place. Restraining yourself in this particular context means a conscious act through which you try not to use your full power. It does feel off, however, to claim that "not restraining" means "one is using 100% of your power as well: it doesn't really apply to Dragon Ball, but in real life you could argue that you could gently poke a person without restraining yourself... if your intention is poking that person gently. You can throw a punch restraining yourself as well - technically - just because you'd be consciously exterting only 90% of your strength and holding back a 10%.
If you want another example, take Freeza: he naturally sits at 70%-ish, to reach his 100% he needs to force his body to power-up. Given that someone who uses ki needs to consciously put some power in a ki blast, if Freeza was sleeping in his First Form and started shooting ki blasts in his sleep he could probably exert a force going from 1 to 530,000 without "restraining himself", alas without dosing the amount of ki properly. Of course, if we start to deepen our analysis and claim that there is another bottle-neck of the sorts, Freeza consciously choosing to stay in his first form the conclusions naturally change. Again, you can see for yourself how strictly contextual talking about "restriction" is.

In short, an "unrestrained" blast from an "unrestrained" Beerus just means that Beerus wasn't aware of the strength he would put in the blast. It doesn't necessarily mean that Beerus was using 100% of his power. In other words, an "unrestrained Beerus" is not necessarily synonymous with a "100% Beerus". He could have been using 10%, 1% or 90% of his strength. He could've have even used less strength than back when he was fighting against SS3 Goku in "Battle of Gods", although I'd be dubious about it.

To corroborate, if you want a more empirical proof, we know that Beerus far surpasses Super Saiyan Blue Goku [*10 in the anime]; this would mean a blast from a 100% Beerus would have killed Goku and Vegeta immediately... probably alongside a galaxy or two.

I think (or hope, at least) that most people understand this, and I assume that the only reason Bullza insists otherwise is for plausible deniability of what we were shown in Episodes 20 and 22 when Goku and Vegeta improved in strength after learning to tap into God ki.

Either way I'm moving on from this whole part of the argument as well as the points pertaining to BoG and the discussion of whether Goku's SSG power ran out because I'm having to argue in circles and it's tedious having to dwell on smaller arguments that aren't even particularly relevant to the main point.

Makes no difference, if they could only move by using this God Ki then they would have had to have been using it when they were fighting in that dimension and yet there's no Blue aura or sparks to be shown.

Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

Also, there's no "if" here, we KNOW that they obtained God ki in base during this scene because that's what Vegeta insinuates.

If they're showing blue sparks and the SSJB aura in one instance and then in another they aren't at all, then it's not the exact same.

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

I'm not implying they didn't get stronger as it's a bona fide fact that when Goku lost his God Ki in his battle with Beerus he did not lose any of his strenght and still got stronger without God Ki.

It's kind of amusing that you keep ignoring what I post and can't even manage to stick to the actual point. We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you."

Well clearly not otherwise it would have been used.

It WAS used in their training and we DO know that it made them stronger. We saw it. Twice. You're the only one here in denial of the fact that base Goku/Vegeta using God ki and being amazed by said God ki was flat-out shown to us.

We know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta learned to use God ki in base, we know for a fact that they've been using their regular ki after their training, and we know for a fact that God ki is stronger than regular ki. All of this is directly presented to us.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I can't believe such an inane argument with both of you raising the exact same points repeatedly is still raging on, surely by this point someone would either acknowledge their errors or at the very least give up.

Snip.

I think (or hope, at least) that most people understand this, and I assume that the only reason Bullza insists otherwise is for plausible deniability of what we were shown in Episodes 20 and 22 when Goku and Vegeta improved in strength after learning to tap into God ki.

Either way I'm moving on from this whole part of the argument as well as the points pertaining to BoG and the discussion of whether Goku's SSG power ran out because I'm having to argue in circles and it's tedious having to dwell on smaller arguments that aren't even particularly relevant to the main point.

Snip.

Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

Also, there's no "if" here, we KNOW that they obtained God ki in base during this scene because that's what Vegeta insinuates.

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It's kind of amusing that you keep ignoring what I post and can't even manage to stick to the actual point. We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you."

It WAS used in their training and we DO know that it made them stronger. We saw it. Twice. You're the only one here in denial of the fact that base Goku/Vegeta using God ki and being amazed by said God ki was flat-out shown to us.

We know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta learned to use God ki in base, we know for a fact that they've been using their regular ki after their training, and we know for a fact that God ki is stronger than regular ki. All of this is directly presented to us.

Anyway, I'm gonna say this guy's mostly right. Clearly the Saiyans are able to use God ki in their base states to far surpass their Super Saiyan states, they are shown doing so repeatedly during Whis' training scenes and are also implied to be doing this in their later battles as is evident by Goku performing fairly well against Hit even in his base, at which time he had to have been using God ki.

Now, surely we all acknowledge that SSBlue must be far superior to SSJ3? If Goku was simply using his base power to match Hit, even his regular SSJ which multiplies his power 50-fold would allow him to effortlessly wallop Hit, let alone SSJ3 and SSBlue. And it's not a case of the SSJ states having reduced multipliers either, as when Goku transforms into his SSJ2 state versus Zamasu he says that Goku's power has risen several dozen-fold which is close enough to 100x.

It's the same with Black, before he obtains SSRose he gets thrashed by SSJ2 Goku, but after obtaining it he is able to tank hits from SSBlue Vegeta and knock him away with 1 kick in base, at which time he's clearly channeling God ki in his base state.

[TheMikado]

^ well no the anime pretty much presents a hierarchy where Super strong base - SSJ - SSB. By them specifically having characters unable to sense only the SSB form it's it implies only that form uses God ki.

This is where I believe the production issues of Super came into play and the writers/animators didn't know what they were supposed to be doing in regards to the characters. Basically creating the inconsistent mess we have now.

The manga shows multiple forms which use God ki so it's not a stretch to think it should be in the anime as well. Especially when they show they have the technical ability. Basically as I stated, it's just not having a coherent story and production that's killing Super and its power levels.

[HeroR]

I can't believe such an inane argument with both of you raising the exact same points repeatedly is still raging on, surely by this point someone would either acknowledge their errors or at the very least give up.

Snip.

I think (or hope, at least) that most people understand this, and I assume that the only reason Bullza insists otherwise is for plausible deniability of what we were shown in Episodes 20 and 22 when Goku and Vegeta improved in strength after learning to tap into God ki.

Either way I'm moving on from this whole part of the argument as well as the points pertaining to BoG and the discussion of whether Goku's SSG power ran out because I'm having to argue in circles and it's tedious having to dwell on smaller arguments that aren't even particularly relevant to the main point.

Snip.

Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

Also, there's no "if" here, we KNOW that they obtained God ki in base during this scene because that's what Vegeta insinuates.

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It's kind of amusing that you keep ignoring what I post and can't even manage to stick to the actual point. We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you."

It WAS used in their training and we DO know that it made them stronger. We saw it. Twice. You're the only one here in denial of the fact that base Goku/Vegeta using God ki and being amazed by said God ki was flat-out shown to us.

We know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta learned to use God ki in base, we know for a fact that they've been using their regular ki after their training, and we know for a fact that God ki is stronger than regular ki. All of this is directly presented to us.

Anyway, I'm gonna say this guy's mostly right. Clearly the Saiyans are able to use God ki in their base states to far surpass their Super Saiyan states, they are shown doing so repeatedly during Whis' training scenes and are also implied to be doing this in their later battles as is evident by Goku performing fairly well against Hit even in his base, at which time he had to have been using God ki.

Now, surely we all acknowledge that SSBlue must be far superior to SSJ3? If Goku was simply using his base power to match Hit, even his regular SSJ which multiplies his power 50-fold would allow him to effortlessly wallop Hit, let alone SSJ3 and SSBlue. And it's not a case of the SSJ states having reduced multipliers either, as when Goku transforms into his SSJ2 state versus Zamasu he says that Goku's power has risen several dozen-fold which is close enough to 100x.

It's the same with Black, before he obtains SSRose he gets thrashed by SSJ2 Goku, but after obtaining it he is able to tank hits from SSBlue Vegeta and knock him away with 1 kick in base, at which time he's clearly channeling God ki in his base state.

Black wasn't channeling God ki in his base because Trunks could still sense him, while he couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta. There is also no evidence that he was using God ki in his base against Hit, yet wasn't against Botamo and Frost. The same with Vegeta.

[TheUltimateNinja]

^ well no the anime pretty much presents a hierarchy where Super strong base - SSJ - SSB. By them specifically having characters unable to sense only the SSB form it's it implies only that form uses God ki.

This is where I believe the production issues of Super came into play and the writers/animators didn't know what they were supposed to be doing in regards to the characters. Basically creating the inconsistent mess we have now.

The manga shows multiple forms which use God ki so it's not a stretch to think it should be in the anime as well. Especially when they show they have the technical ability. Basically as I stated, it's just not having a coherent story and production that's killing Super and its power levels.

Well, it could easily be explained by saying that in their base states they're simply adding God ki on top of their normal ki rather replacing it entirely, so to most people it would simply appear that their power didn't change at all, whereas with SSBlue they're moving to 100% God ki which is why it cannot be sensed.

Plus, if their base strength is truly constant, given the fact that Vegeta is around Goku's level and Cabba was able to put up a good fight against Base Vegeta, this would suggest that Base Cabba is capable of fighting Hit and SSJ Cabba is much more powerful than him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I can't believe such an inane argument with both of you raising the exact same points repeatedly is still raging on, surely by this point someone would either acknowledge their errors or at the very least give up.

I think (or hope, at least) that most people understand this, and I assume that the only reason Bullza insists otherwise is for plausible deniability of what we were shown in Episodes 20 and 22 when Goku and Vegeta improved in strength after learning to tap into God ki.

Either way I'm moving on from this whole part of the argument as well as the points pertaining to BoG and the discussion of whether Goku's SSG power ran out because I'm having to argue in circles and it's tedious having to dwell on smaller arguments that aren't even particularly relevant to the main point.



Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

Also, there's no "if" here, we KNOW that they obtained God ki in base during this scene because that's what Vegeta insinuates.

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It's kind of amusing that you keep ignoring what I post and can't even manage to stick to the actual point. We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you."

It WAS used in their training and we DO know that it made them stronger. We saw it. Twice. You're the only one here in denial of the fact that base Goku/Vegeta using God ki and being amazed by said God ki was flat-out shown to us.

We know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta learned to use God ki in base, we know for a fact that they've been using their regular ki after their training, and we know for a fact that God ki is stronger than regular ki. All of this is directly presented to us.

Anyway, I'm gonna say this guy's mostly right. Clearly the Saiyans are able to use God ki in their base states to far surpass their Super Saiyan states, they are shown doing so repeatedly during Whis' training scenes and are also implied to be doing this in their later battles as is evident by Goku performing fairly well against Hit even in his base, at which time he had to have been using God ki.

Now, surely we all acknowledge that SSBlue must be far superior to SSJ3? If Goku was simply using his base power to match Hit, even his regular SSJ which multiplies his power 50-fold would allow him to effortlessly wallop Hit, let alone SSJ3 and SSBlue. And it's not a case of the SSJ states having reduced multipliers either, as when Goku transforms into his SSJ2 state versus Zamasu he says that Goku's power has risen several dozen-fold which is close enough to 100x.

It's the same with Black, before he obtains SSRose he gets thrashed by SSJ2 Goku, but after obtaining it he is able to tank hits from SSBlue Vegeta and knock him away with 1 kick in base, at which time he's clearly channeling God ki in his base state.

Black wasn't channeling God ki in his base because Trunks could still sense him, while he couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta. There is also no evidence that he was using God ki in his base against Hit, yet wasn't against Botamo and Frost. The same with Vegeta.

It's not as though adding God ki to their base erases their normal ki, so their normal ki could very well still be sensed by mortals while their God ki remains obscured. Also, if their base is absolutely incapable of using God ki this creates a bizarre power structure where Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

[Bullza]

Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

And why couldn't they have had that visualisation when they were training in the other dimension? That same aura was used for the Super Saiyan Blue form. It's referred to as them being cloaked in Godly Ki according to Zamasu so why wasn't it there when they were fighting in the other dimension?

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore

And again it wasn't the same thing. There was no blue aura in the other dimension unlike in episode 20. If it's different then it's not the exact same.

We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

Your point is that the manifesting God Ki in their base forms makes them more powerful. Even though the show had already made it abundantly clear that Goku not having God Ki did not affect his strenght in any way.

If his Base form is already as strong as Super Saiyan God then how does God Ki affect his strenght?

You can't just randomly say that he lost that power because that's based on nothing. He wasn't any weaker and they never said he got any weaker. That's merely your assumption just to try and get this to all fit.

The Goku who went to Whis' planet was as strong as the Goku who destroyed Beerus' blast which makes sense with him being able to withstand Beerus' unrestrained attacks.

It WAS used in their training

But where is it ever since? Are we supposed to believe that that Base Goku and Vegeta was enormously more powerful than Base Goku and Vegeta at any point ever since then?

[Helios518]

[snip]

God ki base or not, any of those forms are still far below SSJB unless you really believe that SSJB is like a 1.1x stronger than God ki base. It's a lot more likely that Hit was holding back because he was intrigued that Goku wasn't going SSJB immediately despite seeing Vegeta get destroyed. Same way Manga!Hit didn't power intensely at SSJ Goku but just before base Goku was still doing my decent to him.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

[HeroR]

It's not as though adding God ki to their base erases their normal ki, so their normal ki could very well still be sensed by mortals while their God ki remains obscured. Also, if their base is absolutely incapable of using God ki this creates a bizarre power structure where Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

Such a thing has never been said or even hinted in the show. It was never said, 'Goku is using 40% god ki'. You're either using god ki or you're not. Also the forms works like this:

base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

Disagree here. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks wasn't Super Saiyan 2 Goku's equal until maybe recently. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks couldn't even break Super Saiyan 2 Goku's guard who did nothing but blocked. Goku also put up a much better fight against Black did Trunks ever did, even when he first met Black.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I can't believe such an inane argument with both of you raising the exact same points repeatedly is still raging on, surely by this point someone would either acknowledge their errors or at the very least give up.

I think (or hope, at least) that most people understand this, and I assume that the only reason Bullza insists otherwise is for plausible deniability of what we were shown in Episodes 20 and 22 when Goku and Vegeta improved in strength after learning to tap into God ki.

Either way I'm moving on from this whole part of the argument as well as the points pertaining to BoG and the discussion of whether Goku's SSG power ran out because I'm having to argue in circles and it's tedious having to dwell on smaller arguments that aren't even particularly relevant to the main point.



Not necessarily, since the blue aura was just a visualization of leaked God ki. The entire point of their training was not leaking any ki.

Also, there's no "if" here, we KNOW that they obtained God ki in base during this scene because that's what Vegeta insinuates.

Gonna repeat this until it doesn't elude you anymore:

"Second of all, whether there's a blue aura in the other dimension is irrelevant because we know they did the exact same thing on both occasions, which is not letting their ki leak after having raised it, and we know that Vegeta mentions the pressure of God ki only after not letting his power leak. It might be dubious to you but it's actually extremely obvious in the way it's presented because Goku and Vegeta are doing the same exact things in both scenes. You're getting way too caught up in the fact that we didn't see a blue aura in both scenes even though in Episode 22 Vegeta explicitly said it was God ki after going through the EXACT same process as in Episode 20 when the aura appeared."

It's kind of amusing that you keep ignoring what I post and can't even manage to stick to the actual point. We're not talking about his battle with Beerus at all here, we're specifically talking about whether they got stronger after manifesting God ki within themselves after their first clash in Episode 20.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards. Meanwhile, you're trying to imply that they didn't become stronger from such a clear visual indication because you desperately don't want to admit what the anime just unambiguously presented to you."

It WAS used in their training and we DO know that it made them stronger. We saw it. Twice. You're the only one here in denial of the fact that base Goku/Vegeta using God ki and being amazed by said God ki was flat-out shown to us.

We know for a fact that Goku and Vegeta learned to use God ki in base, we know for a fact that they've been using their regular ki after their training, and we know for a fact that God ki is stronger than regular ki. All of this is directly presented to us.

Anyway, I'm gonna say this guy's mostly right. Clearly the Saiyans are able to use God ki in their base states to far surpass their Super Saiyan states, they are shown doing so repeatedly during Whis' training scenes and are also implied to be doing this in their later battles as is evident by Goku performing fairly well against Hit even in his base, at which time he had to have been using God ki.

Now, surely we all acknowledge that SSBlue must be far superior to SSJ3? If Goku was simply using his base power to match Hit, even his regular SSJ which multiplies his power 50-fold would allow him to effortlessly wallop Hit, let alone SSJ3 and SSBlue. And it's not a case of the SSJ states having reduced multipliers either, as when Goku transforms into his SSJ2 state versus Zamasu he says that Goku's power has risen several dozen-fold which is close enough to 100x.

It's the same with Black, before he obtains SSRose he gets thrashed by SSJ2 Goku, but after obtaining it he is able to tank hits from SSBlue Vegeta and knock him away with 1 kick in base, at which time he's clearly channeling God ki in his base state.

God ki base or not, any of those forms are still far below SSJB unless you really believe that SSJB is like a 1.1x stronger than God ki base. It's a lot more likely that Hit was holding back because he was intrigued that Goku wasn't going SSJB immediately despite seeing Vegeta get destroyed. Same way Manga!Hit didn't power intensely at SSJ Goku but just before base Goku was still down my decent to him.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

I have SSBlue at 1.5x SSG.

I suppose that's a good point about Black, but still, there's a large gap between SSBlue Vegeta and someone above SS2 Trunks and Goku. SSG took Goku from being thoroughly outclassed by Beerus to being able to put up a good fight (Though Beerus was heavily suppressed), and SSBlue is said to be even stronger than this.
Goku felt that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough to deal with Beerus, so let's lowball his power and say Super Vegetto is 5,000x Goku and SSJ2 Vegetto is 10,000x Goku and ignore SSJ3. Let's have SSG Goku be 20,000x stronger than Goku, and SSBlue 1.5x that at 30,000x.'

Sure, let's say Hit was holding back against Goku, but how much? If even after multiplying his power 30,000x with SSBlue and 300,000x with Kkx10 Goku is still unable to beat Hit, to what absurd extent did Hit hold back against him? Even if you say the God forms got much weaker after their first use, they must still be a great deal stronger than SSJ3 so let's reduce SSBlue to a tenth of its power to 3,000x, with Kkx10 it goes back up to 30,000x which did not give Goku enough of an advantage to finish Hit, so unless Hit was really several thousands of times stronger than Goku and was simply holding back for lols, it would suggest that Base Goku can harness God ki.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's not as though adding God ki to their base erases their normal ki, so their normal ki could very well still be sensed by mortals while their God ki remains obscured. Also, if their base is absolutely incapable of using God ki this creates a bizarre power structure where Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

Such a thing has never been said or even hinted in the show. It was never said, 'Goku is using 40% god ki'. You're either using god ki or you're not. Also the forms works like this:

base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

Disagree here. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks wasn't Super Saiyan 2 Goku's equal until maybe recently. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks couldn't even break Super Saiyan 2 Goku's guard who did nothing but blocked. Goku also put up a much better fight against Black did Trunks ever did, even when he first met Black.

That makes no sense because SSBlue must multiply Goku's power by at least several thousand-fold, and unless Hit was using 0.003% of his power or something ridiculous like that to bring himself way down to Goku's level, he should easily oneshot Goku, also SSRose is very similar to SSBlue and seems to be Black's equivalent to SSBlue, so if it's really that much stronger than his base he should have been erased from existence by Vegeta who was going all out against him.

[Bullza]

So I looked up the episode summary on this website and here's what they have to say about what happened in Episode 22.

"At first they cannot even move, but Vegeta figures out that the trick is to raise their ki without having it “leak out” of their bodies. Though they can now move, the place is still harsh, exerting incredible pressure on them due to what Goku believes to be godly ki. It is also hot, and difficult to breathe… just like the Room of Spirit and Time."

This is saying the atmosphere of the place is the Godly Ki. That's actually what I thought they were referring to myself in the show.

When Vegeta says "Is this Godly Ki" a wave of the places atmosphere blows across his hand. The pressure isn't from his own power. It's the pressure from the atmosphere and that's why they couldn't move at first.

After all why would them powering up their Ki internally result in it turning into God Ki? Anyone could would be able to achieve God Ki by that logic. And why did Vegeta not make this "Is this Godly Ki" comment the first time they clashed punches?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So I looked up the episode summary on this website and here's what they have to say about what happened in Episode 22.

"At first they cannot even move, but Vegeta figures out that the trick is to raise their ki without having it “leak out” of their bodies. Though they can now move, the place is still harsh, exerting incredible pressure on them due to what Goku believes to be godly ki. It is also hot, and difficult to breathe… just like the Room of Spirit and Time."

This is saying the atmosphere of the place is the Godly Ki. That's actually what I thought they were referring to myself in the show.

When Vegeta says "Is this Godly Ki" a wave of the places atmosphere blows across his hand. The pressure isn't from his own power. It's the pressure from the atmosphere and that's why they couldn't move at first.

After all why would them powering up their Ki internally result in it turning into God Ki? Anyone could would be able to achieve God Ki by that logic. And why did Vegeta not make this "Is this Godly Ki" comment the first time they clashed punches?

This one's really strange because after Goku's SSG ran out he was told he still retained the power and it was his to use, so unless that got retconned and he doesn't actually still have that power, he should easily oneshot Vegeta with a fraction of his power unless Vegeta's a God too.

[Marlowe89]

And why couldn't they have had that visualisation when they were training in the other dimension?

Does it matter? They were training not to leak any ki to begin with. We know that they both did the same thing before the God ki was shown/talked about - not letting their ki leak after having raised it - so we know it would have resulted in God ki regardless of whether we saw a blue aura or not because Vegeta could sense it after doing that and because it was shown. Why do you keep missing the point?

It's referred to as them being cloaked in Godly Ki according to Zamasu

So then you admit they were using God ki in base, since Zamasu confirmed the blue aura is in fact God ki.

And again it wasn't the same thing. There was no blue aura in the other dimension unlike in episode 20. If it's different then it's not the exact same.

So did you actually read the counterpoint I kept copypasting over and over again or are you just skimming through it? Goku and Vegeta's actions were the same in both scenes because they were told/remembered not to let their ki leak. The first time, we see a blue aura that is clearly God ki, and the second time it's explicitly CALLED God ki.

You nitpicking over the fact that there isn't a visualization in both instances makes it seem like you're trying to pry apart two closely related situations that clearly involve identical methods. It just comes across as a desperate tactic on your part since we know they did the same thing with their ki in both scenes.

Your point is that the manifesting God Ki in their base forms makes them more powerful.

That's the anime's point, I'm afraid.

"Vegeta implies that God ki has more pressure. Whis looks surprised and says they've come a long away right after we see them using God ki during their fist clash. They express complete SHOCK at having witnessed this God ki and look at their own bodies in awe afterwards."

You can't just randomly say that he lost that power because that's based on nothing. He wasn't any weaker and they never said he got any weaker.

Yeah... nice try, but we're already off the subject of BoG as I said in my previous post. We're discussing what was portrayed and stated in Episodes 20 and 22 and yet you keep deflecting back to a different episode because you're denying what happened.

But where is it ever since?

The point is that it happened because that's what we were shown.

This is saying the atmosphere of the place is the Godly Ki. That's actually what I thought they were referring to myself in the show.

That's not necessarily the case either because Goku and Vegeta were observing their bodies when referring to the pressure of God ki, but even if it was, Vegeta was able to sense the God ki only after following Whis' instructions about raising their ki only within themselves.

They did the same thing when they clashed fists in Episode 20 and we see the aura of SSB which would have to be God ki because A.) Zamasu confirmed it was God ki and B.) it's the only quality that differentiates Blue from Super Saiyan in the first place. It also matches with Vegeta's comment because, again, they took identical actions with their ki beforehand in both scenes.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Also, if Black really is only using his base without any God ki, why is his base so powerful? He was able to put up a fight against SSBlue Vegeta, so by going SSJ he should easily surpass Goku, Vegeta and even Beerus, SSJ3 would probably put him above even Whis and Vados, so why use a useless form like SSRose which didn't even increase his power all that much? The only explanation is that he's enhancing his base form using God ki.

And another thing, when Frieza came back, even his first form was far stronger than all of the Z fighters and his final form far surpassed even that, and it's in turn dwarfed by base Goku's power, so if Goku can't use God ki in his base this means that in a couple months of training with Whis he was able to take his base from Namek Frieza level to above Super Vegetto tier but then barely improved at all after 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta.