Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I'll have to reply to the rest latter as I'm strapped for time. Though it might be a bit besides the point now that it's become more clear what actually happened.

That's not necessarily the case either because Goku and Vegeta were observing their bodies when referring to the pressure of God ki

Take another look at the scene. They weren't observing their bodies, after they stopped their Ki from leaking out theywere observing the waves of white air (Godly Ki) flowing around their bodies and their hands. That's what Vegeta was referring to as being the Godly Ki, that's where the pressure was coming from which stopped them from being able to move at first.

but even if it was, Vegeta was able to sense the God ki only after following Whis' instructions about raising their ki only within themselves.

We already knew he could sense God Ki because that was commented on by the Oracle Fish when Goku showed up so that ain't it.

[Marlowe89]

Take another look at the scene. They weren't observing their bodies, after they stopped their Ki from leaking out theywere observing the waves of white air (Godly Ki) flowing around their bodies and their hands. That's what Vegeta was referring to as being the Godly Ki, that's where the pressure was coming from which stopped them from being able to move at first.

From what I could see, they were both looking specifically at their bodies and their hands. When Vegeta says "Is this God ki?", his eye contact wasn't even focused on the constantly moving white waves flowing around him but his arm instead.

We already knew he could sense God Ki because that was commented on by the Oracle Fish when Goku showed up so that ain't it.

Then that would conflict with Vegeta's "Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!" statement because that statement implicitly suggests he's never felt God ki before or the pressure associated with it. Or maybe there is no contradiction and the interpretation I noted above is the correct one.

But here's the best part: you could disregard Episode 22 ENTIRELY and it still wouldn't change anything that happened in Episode 20. Their fists clashed, a blue ki/aura manifested, and - just in case anyone didn't have the common sense to know it was God ki - lo and behold, that blue aura was confirmed by Zamasu to be God ki.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Take another look at the scene. They weren't observing their bodies, after they stopped their Ki from leaking out theywere observing the waves of white air (Godly Ki) flowing around their bodies and their hands. That's what Vegeta was referring to as being the Godly Ki, that's where the pressure was coming from which stopped them from being able to move at first.

From what I could see, they were both looking specifically at their bodies and their hands. When Vegeta says "Is this God ki?", his eye contact wasn't even focused on the constantly moving "waves of white air" but his arm instead.

We already knew he could sense God Ki because that was commented on by the Oracle Fish when Goku showed up so that ain't it.

Then that would conflict with Vegeta's "Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!" statement because that statement implicitly suggests he's never felt God ki before or the pressure associated with it.

But here's the best part: you could disregard Episode 22 ENTIRELY and it still wouldn't change anything that happened in Episode 20. Their fists clashed, a blue ki/aura manifested, and - just in case anyone didn't have the common sense to know it was God ki - that blue aura was outright confirmed by Zamasu to be God ki.

I actually agree with your points here, but I think it's about time to stop arguing that particular point, it's clear that there's a fundamental disagreement here and there's no way you can convince him that they were in fact using God ki so you'll probably keep having the same argument over and over.

I mean, by this point the past several posts of conflict could be summed up as:
You: Goku and Vegeta have repeatedly demonstrated the use of what is clearly God ki in base.

Bullza: No, in fact they were doing something else entirely.

You: No, that was definitely God ki.

And so on and so forth

[Marlowe89]

I actually agree with your points here, but I think it's about time to stop arguing that particular point, it's clear that there's a fundamental disagreement here and there's no way you can convince him that they were in fact using God ki so you'll probably keep having the same argument over and over.

That does look to be the case. If he comes up with a new counterpoint, I'll probably respond to it, otherwise it doesn't seem like he's going to be convinced no matter what Toei clearly spells out.

To me it couldn't be any more obvious, but I suppose we'll see if it's ever touched on again in the anime.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I actually agree with your points here, but I think it's about time to stop arguing that particular point, it's clear that there's a fundamental disagreement here and there's no way you can convince him that they were in fact using God ki so you'll probably keep having the same argument over and over.

That does look to be the case. If he comes up with a new counterpoint, I'll probably respond to it, otherwise it doesn't seem like he's going to be convinced no matter what Toei clearly spells out.

To me it couldn't be any more obvious, but I suppose we'll see if it's ever touched on again in the anime.

Plus it's the only way powerscaling actually makes sense, otherwise you have Base Goku being Namek Frieza tier and almost SSGod tier at the same time.

[Bullza]

From what I could see, they were both looking specifically at their bodies and their hands. When Vegeta says "Is this God ki?", his eye contact wasn't even focused on the constantly moving white waves flowing around him but his arm instead.

They very specifically showed white waves of energy flowing around their body when they said it, of course that's what they were referring to. The summary for the episode has Goku referring to the Godly Ki in the atmosphere.

The Fact Checker thread also only says this.

"It also seems that the core of their training is to lock their ki within themselves."

With no mention of them having Godly Ki.

They were both thrown into a dimension filled with Godly Ki. The Godly Ki is what was creating the pressure like Vegeta said. Thats why Whis voiced his concerns about them being thrown in there thinking they weren't ready to handle it.

It all makes sense now. They didn't have Godly Ki themselves. Like I said Vegeta never said "Is this Godly Ki" in episode 20 did he? There's no confusion with them not ever using this power ever since because they never had it to begin with and it fits with God Ki not making any difference in the Beerus fight.

Then that would conflict with Vegeta's "Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!" statement because that statement implicitly suggests he's never felt God ki before or the pressure associated with it.

Not necessarily. I'd imagine it's a very different experience being in an environment that's filled with that energy. It's not like Whis having Godly Ki put pressure on his body and again by this logic he should have have said it in Episode 20.

But here's the best part: you could disregard Episode 22 ENTIRELY and it still wouldn't change anything that happened in Episode 20.

It'd still make it different.

In Episode 22 they did not obtain God Ki by not letting their Ki leak out and that should be partly common sense itself because why would holding their Ki in magically turn it into God's Ki? Anyone could become a God going by that logic.

If they didn't obtain God Ki by not letting their Ki leak then they didn't obtain it in Episode 20 and they didn't really because it was a brief flash.

There was a SSJB tease and maybe that's all it was. Why was it blue to begin with? That was supposed to be when they combined it with Super Saiyan but they weren't Super Saiyan when they did it so why wasn't it red?

[brett wheeler]

Also, if Black really is only using his base without any God ki, why is his base so powerful? He was able to put up a fight against SSBlue Vegeta, so by going SSJ he should easily surpass Goku, Vegeta and even Beerus, SSJ3 would probably put him above even Whis and Vados, so why use a useless form like SSRose which didn't even increase his power all that much? The only explanation is that he's enhancing his base form using God ki.

And another thing, when Frieza came back, even his first form was far stronger than all of the Z fighters and his final form far surpassed even that, and it's in turn dwarfed by base Goku's power, so if Goku can't use God ki in his base this means that in a couple months of training with Whis he was able to take his base from Namek Frieza level to above Super Vegetto tier but then barely improved at all after 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta.

that can be explained as well. Base black was 50* weaker than ssjr and vegeta was holding back as shown later when he stoped ssjr blacks punch with seaming ease black then even explains he powered up after fighting vegeta. He doesnt use ssj2 or 3 because he hasnt learned nor cared plus he is a god naturally so maby he just cant, remember all ssb is is ssj with god ki so maby with natural gods ssj is the farthest they can go theres no real explanation.

now on to frieza. Lets look at this rationally piccolo was outclassed by tagoma when piccolo should be super perfect cell lvl at this piont at worst he is 2nd form cell lvl ok now tagoma for him to be wrecking everybody like he was would half to be anywhere from super vegeta lvl to ssj2 gohan, ( depending on where you put piccolo also remember tagoma was said to be suppressing power still and got much stroger later ) gohan was said to be the strongest fighter in base but still weaker than tagoma so he would be anywhere from super trunks ( not the ultra buff form but the form vegeta took witch was said to be weaker than vegeta in that form even if not by mutch ) to super perfect cell lvl in base so ssj was 50 times that probably around his ultimate self but not there yet,frieza one shot them all in first form yet they didnt want ssj3 gotenks fighting first form frieza in the anime as they had the fusion where off way to soon so first form frieza was probably around ssj3 gotenks. Now if you take all this into consideration and realize that 1st form frieza to final form 100% is a 300 some times boost then final form frieza is probably around a hypothetical ssj2 vegito so he would be able to destroy every one there easy and be stronger than any form of majin buu witch I think was toriyama intent by having him say he could crush a goku who was stronger than majin buu, Goku said frieza was a joke basicaly so he was a lot stronger than frieza so he would be around a hypothetical ssj4 vegito ( buu sega ) same goes for vegeta but they stated they are near there limit so they wont get much stronger as for the ssj forms they are just not as strong as the gods not even close still ( remember the gods are just as strong as they need to be not the same as we thought before ). Basicaly ssg and ssb do hit the gods lvl ssg being about 3-4% beerus ssb being 30-40% beerus ssbkk*10 would be at maximum 300-400% beerus but do to the beating he took and everything else he was probably 90-95% beerus. what do you think this make sense or no

[Helios518]

I can't believe such an inane argument with both of you raising the exact same points repeatedly is still raging on, surely by this point someone would either acknowledge their errors or at the very least give up.


Anyway, I'm gonna say this guy's mostly right. Clearly the Saiyans are able to use God ki in their base states to far surpass their Super Saiyan states, they are shown doing so repeatedly during Whis' training scenes and are also implied to be doing this in their later battles as is evident by Goku performing fairly well against Hit even in his base, at which time he had to have been using God ki.

Now, surely we all acknowledge that SSBlue must be far superior to SSJ3? If Goku was simply using his base power to match Hit, even his regular SSJ which multiplies his power 50-fold would allow him to effortlessly wallop Hit, let alone SSJ3 and SSBlue. And it's not a case of the SSJ states having reduced multipliers either, as when Goku transforms into his SSJ2 state versus Zamasu he says that Goku's power has risen several dozen-fold which is close enough to 100x.

It's the same with Black, before he obtains SSRose he gets thrashed by SSJ2 Goku, but after obtaining it he is able to tank hits from SSBlue Vegeta and knock him away with 1 kick in base, at which time he's clearly channeling God ki in his base state.

God ki base or not, any of those forms are still far below SSJB unless you really believe that SSJB is like a 1.1x stronger than God ki base. It's a lot more likely that Hit was holding back because he was intrigued that Goku wasn't going SSJB immediately despite seeing Vegeta get destroyed. Same way Manga!Hit didn't power intensely at SSJ Goku but just before base Goku was still down my decent to him.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

I have SSBlue at 1.5x SSG.

I suppose that's a good point about Black, but still, there's a large gap between SSBlue Vegeta and someone above SS2 Trunks and Goku. SSG took Goku from being thoroughly outclassed by Beerus to being able to put up a good fight (Though Beerus was heavily suppressed), and SSBlue is said to be even stronger than this.
Goku felt that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough to deal with Beerus, so let's lowball his power and say Super Vegetto is 5,000x Goku and SSJ2 Vegetto is 10,000x Goku and ignore SSJ3. Let's have SSG Goku be 20,000x stronger than Goku, and SSBlue 1.5x that at 30,000x.'

Sure, let's say Hit was holding back against Goku, but how much? If even after multiplying his power 30,000x with SSBlue and 300,000x with Kkx10 Goku is still unable to beat Hit, to what absurd extent did Hit hold back against him? Even if you say the God forms got much weaker after their first use, they must still be a great deal stronger than SSJ3 so let's reduce SSBlue to a tenth of its power to 3,000x, with Kkx10 it goes back up to 30,000x which did not give Goku enough of an advantage to finish Hit, so unless Hit was really several thousands of times stronger than Goku and was simply holding back for lols, it would suggest that Base Goku can harness God ki.

Usually when someone uses just starts using God ki is it's obvious. They either mention the "intense pressure","ki disappearing", or it's already obvious they're using God ki because it was established before. None of these were mentioned when the God Ki base was used in the Hit fight and 1.25x (the point of curbstomp) difference in battle is the same as 1,000x difference. Hit will curbstomp the SSJB Vegeta as he would Base Goku and as he would God Ki base Goku.

[Helios518]

I actually agree with your points here, but I think it's about time to stop arguing that particular point, it's clear that there's a fundamental disagreement here and there's no way you can convince him that they were in fact using God ki so you'll probably keep having the same argument over and over.

That does look to be the case. If he comes up with a new counterpoint, I'll probably respond to it, otherwise it doesn't seem like he's going to be convinced no matter what Toei clearly spells out.

To me it couldn't be any more obvious, but I suppose we'll see if it's ever touched on again in the anime.

Plus it's the only way powerscaling actually makes sense, otherwise you have Base Goku being Namek Frieza tier and almost SSGod tier at the same time.

Actually if you believe Goku only has one base then that's not the case with most people, We just have him with one very strong base (strength varies with people, going from Gotenks+ tier to SSJG+ tier).

[Khin]

Here's one thing I just realized: The explanation for Super Saiyan Blue is that it's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan. Meaning if you have the God power and you use Super Saiyan, you'll become blue. You can interpret that the reason why Goku/Vegeta turns into regular Super Saiyan form instead is because they are not using God powers.

Meaning...

All God power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue

Not all God Power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Regular Super Saiyan[/quote]

Plus it's the only way powerscaling actually makes sense, otherwise you have Base Goku being Namek Frieza tier and almost SSGod tier at the same time.

There's nothing that says Base Goku is only around the same tier as Namek Freeza. If anything, Base Future Trunks beating SS Present Trunks to a pulp kind of throws away all those arguments. There's also Goku saying Vegeta becomes so strong that he can barely recognize him, and that's before Goku and Vegeta started training in Whis' RoSaT.

[ekrolo2]

Here's one thing I just realized: The explanation for Super Saiyan Blue is that it's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan. Meaning if you have the God power and you use Super Saiyan, you'll become blue. You can interpret that the reason why Goku/Vegeta turns into regular Super Saiyan form instead is because they are not using God powers.

Meaning...

God power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue

No God Power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Regular Super Saiyan

That's what I assumed too but the show makes it a bit weird. When Goku turns SSBlue for the first time, Krillin comments on how he can't sense Goku's Ki anymore, implying he could all up until that point. So, if Goku was using God Ki in his base to smash Final Form Freeza around, he should've been undetectable from the beginning, not just after transforming.

[TheMikado]

Here's one thing I just realized: The explanation for Super Saiyan Blue is that it's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan. Meaning if you have the God power and you use Super Saiyan, you'll become blue. You can interpret that the reason why Goku/Vegeta turns into regular Super Saiyan form instead is because they are not using God powers.

Meaning...

God power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Blue

No God Power/Ki + Super Saiyan = Regular Super Saiyan

That's what I assumed too but the show makes it a bit weird. When Goku turns SSBlue for the first time, Krillin comments on how he can't sense Goku's Ki anymore, implying he could all up until that point. So, if Goku was using God Ki in his base to smash Final Form Freeza around, he should've been undetectable from the beginning, not just after transforming.

Wow I can't believe this argument is still going around.

First and foremost: in the anime there is not form used in combat which is presented to have God ki other than SSB. That's literally how it is. Their base is just super strong.

In the manga: their base is like Namek Frieza level and they are only marginally stronger than their Buu selves until they use God ki in the form of SSG and SSB.

It's been shown (though some disagreement) that in the anime they also appear to be able to turn God ki on and off regardless of using SSB. The manga seems to support this ability.

The problem: in the anime, when you apply the two base theory to various fights the power scaling and scenarios outside of things like Trunks makes a lot more sense. However the comments and exposition do not.

My personal theory: I think the production problems that plagued the anime also spilled into the writing and animation to the point where future arcs were poorly planned in terms of consistency and the staff had no idea how strong characters were at any given point and whether they were using God ki or not. Obviously these is compounded by having writers and animators rotate out so what we get is an inconsistent mess where not even the production staff are sure what they are supposed to be making and presenting with the anime.

So as far as I'm concerned, the ability to use God ki outside of SSB exists in both the manga and anime. It's the presentation that's all over the place and the anime seems tone rolling with super strong normal bases while he manga takes a different approach.

[Khin]

That's what I assumed too but the show makes it a bit weird. When Goku turns SSBlue for the first time, Krillin comments on how he can't sense Goku's Ki anymore, implying he could all up until that point. So, if Goku was using God Ki in his base to smash Final Form Freeza around, he should've been undetectable from the beginning, not just after transforming.

This comes up a few times. I think the reason why Goku's Ki becomes undetectable is because he only uses all of his God Ki when he turns Super Saiyan Blue. So when he's not using all his God Ki, his Ki can be sensed.

In a nutshell, Base Goku have minimal amount of God Ki, but Super Saiyan Blue have all of it. And Goku can only utilize of all of his God Ki by turning Super Saiyan, which will make him Blue.

snip

I don't subscribe to the two base theory. I just think that Goku have God Ki, but he can only utilize all of it by turning Super Saiyan, which will make him Blue. However, if he don't want to utilize his God Ki, he will just turn into regular Super Saiyan.

As for your theory. I don't think it has anything to do with the production. It's just that Toei doesn't care about power consistency, as we saw multiple times in Dragon Ball Z. Fillers in Z have entirely nonsense things like Base Vegeta putting up a fight against SS3 Gotenks, or Pure Boo being the strongest Boo, and many other examples. That's how they are, and looks like they haven't changed, as you can see with Trunks in episode 57.

[Marlowe89]

They very specifically showed white waves of energy flowing around their body when they said it, of course that's what they were referring to. The summary for the episode has Goku referring to the Godly Ki in the atmosphere.

Incredible. Now you're changing your argument from "But they were clearly looking at the white waves!" to "But there were clearly white waves!" despite there being absolutely no indication that Goku and Vegeta were looking at them and not their bodies after not letting their ki leak.

Even assuming that God ki was present throughout the dimension, they weren't able to sense its pressure until raising their ki within themselves.

I'd imagine it's a very different experience being in an environment that's filled with that energy.

That's not what's implicitly suggested by Vegeta's statement. At all.

It'd still make it different.

No it wouldn't because Zamasu flat-out called the blue aura God ki, a part you keep ignoring because you know it refutes your argument. And now you're trying to shift the debate exclusively to Episode 22 when, in fact, Episode 20 is all that's needed.

The fact that they were able to manifest that God ki AT ALL during their first clash while looking at their bodies in amazement afterwards means that they were using God ki in base during that scene, and you can't get around it because it was even called God ki.

[HeroR]

It's not as though adding God ki to their base erases their normal ki, so their normal ki could very well still be sensed by mortals while their God ki remains obscured. Also, if their base is absolutely incapable of using God ki this creates a bizarre power structure where Base > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ > Base.

Such a thing has never been said or even hinted in the show. It was never said, 'Goku is using 40% god ki'. You're either using god ki or you're not. Also the forms works like this:

base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

For Black, Trunks said that Black was SSJ3 Goku level if not stronger before the SSJ2 Goku fight. Also Black thrashed SSJ2 Trunks (SSJ2 Goku's equal) many times before so it could easily be said that Black was holding back against Goku possibly to get stronger.

Disagree here. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks wasn't Super Saiyan 2 Goku's equal until maybe recently. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks couldn't even break Super Saiyan 2 Goku's guard who did nothing but blocked. Goku also put up a much better fight against Black did Trunks ever did, even when he first met Black.

That makes no sense because SSBlue must multiply Goku's power by at least several thousand-fold, and unless Hit was using 0.003% of his power or something ridiculous like that to bring himself way down to Goku's level, he should easily oneshot Goku, also SSRose is very similar to SSBlue and seems to be Black's equivalent to SSBlue, so if it's really that much stronger than his base he should have been erased from existence by Vegeta who was going all out against him.

We already know that Hit was holding back against Goku's base form, especially since he took down Vegeta at full power with just a couple of hits. And we don't know what Super Saiyan Rose is, so everything is just guess work.

As for your theory. I don't think it has anything to do with the production. It's just that Toei doesn't care about power consistency, as we saw multiple times in Dragon Ball Z. Fillers in Z have entirely nonsense things like Base Vegeta putting up a fight against SS3 Gotenks, or Pure Boo being the strongest Boo, and many other examples. That's how they are, and looks like they haven't changed, as you can see with Trunks in episode 57.

I don't see how base form Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is nonsense since Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus, yet base form Goku took hits from Beerus and took out a planet buster with a punch. Even in the movie by Toriyama, base form Goku manages to hit Beerus several times and Goku has only gotten stronger since then. So Goku and Vegeta's base should be stronger than Gotenks, especially since Gotenks hasn't gotten stronger since the Buu Saga.

[Khin]

I don't see how base form Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is nonsense since Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus, yet base form Goku took hits from Beerus and took out a planet buster with a punch. Even in the movie by Toriyama, base form Goku manages to hit Beerus several times and Goku has only gotten stronger since then. So Goku and Vegeta's base should be stronger than Gotenks, especially since Gotenks hasn't gotten stronger since the Buu Saga.

I think you read my post wrong. What I'm referring to in my SS3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta comment is that filler in Dragon Ball Z when Goku and Vegeta are fighting against a copy of Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Piccolo (Who are stated to be as strong as the real one) inside Evil Boo's body. And Base Vegeta (Or is that SS Vegeta ? Can't remember well) beats SS3 Gotenks up.

I have no problem with Base Copy-Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks since it contradicts nothing and goes with what was established.

[ekrolo2]

That's what I assumed too but the show makes it a bit weird. When Goku turns SSBlue for the first time, Krillin comments on how he can't sense Goku's Ki anymore, implying he could all up until that point. So, if Goku was using God Ki in his base to smash Final Form Freeza around, he should've been undetectable from the beginning, not just after transforming.

This comes up a few times. I think the reason why Goku's Ki becomes undetectable is because he only uses all of his God Ki when he turns Super Saiyan Blue. So when he's not using all his God Ki, his Ki can be sensed.

In a nutshell, Base Goku have minimal amount of God Ki, but Super Saiyan Blue have all of it. And Goku can only utilize of all of his God Ki by turning Super Saiyan, which will make him Blue.

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

[HeroR]

I don't see how base form Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is nonsense since Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus, yet base form Goku took hits from Beerus and took out a planet buster with a punch. Even in the movie by Toriyama, base form Goku manages to hit Beerus several times and Goku has only gotten stronger since then. So Goku and Vegeta's base should be stronger than Gotenks, especially since Gotenks hasn't gotten stronger since the Buu Saga.

I think you read my post wrong. What I'm referring to in my SS3 Gotenks and Base Vegeta comment is that filler in Dragon Ball Z when Goku and Vegeta are fighting against a copy of Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and Piccolo (Who are stated to be as strong as the real one) inside Evil Boo's body. And Base Vegeta (Or is that SS Vegeta ? Can't remember well) beats SS3 Gotenks up.

I have no problem with Base Copy-Vegeta beating SS3 Gotenks since it contradicts nothing and goes with what was established.

Aw, I see. Since they were just copies made by Buu's imagination and not the real thing, I always assumed that was why they were underpowered and immortal. And Vegeta got his butt kicked by Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He only got hit in when he made Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon hit Gotenks.

As for Trunks in Episode 57, I think it is obvious now that he got a rage boost since he performance in Episode 61 was extremely lackluster, and Goku and Vegeta had to shield him. Which does make sense since you see Trunks losing it and powering up against Black. That along with his sneak attack on Black and Zamasu going on his motive rant.

The manga also had power level oddities, like how did Krillin perform so well against second form Freeza when he doesn't get a boost from near-death and was one-shotted by Recoome? And how did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million just by Vegeta beating him up when Ginyu had his body? And how did Vegeta go from just over 30,000 to matching first form Freeza after getting beating by the Ginyu Force? Even getting owned by Zarbon only took him from 24,000 to over 30,000. At least Gohan got the excuse of getting stronger from near-death, rage boosts, and hidden power.

[Khin]

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

I'm going with the 50 times boost to Super Saiyan 3 or 20,000 times boost to base. I'm subscribing to that one scan which says Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably it also has a 50 times boost to Black's base. Black's regular form was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Stronger after they fought in ep50), so with a 50 times boost it gives him a comfortable advantage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

P.S A 50x boost to Super Saiyan will be 2,500x base, not 25,000x.

Aw, I see. Since they were just copies made by Buu's imagination and not the real thing, I always assumed that was why they were underpowered and immortal. And Vegeta got his butt kicked by Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He only got hit in when he made Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon hit Gotenks.

As for Trunks in Episode 57, I think it is obvious now that he got a rage boost since he performance in Episode 61 was extremely lackluster, and Goku and Vegeta had to shield him. Which does make sense since you see Trunks losing it and powering up against Black. That along with his sneak attack on Black and Zamasu going on his motive rant.

The manga also had power level oddities, like how did Krillin perform so well against second form Freeza when he doesn't get a boost from near-death and was one-shotted by Recoome? And how did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million just by Vegeta beating him up when Ginyu had his body? And how did Vegeta go from just over 30,000 to matching first form Freeza after getting beating by the Ginyu Force? Even getting owned by Zarbon only took him from 24,000 to over 30,000. At least Gohan got the excuse of getting stronger from near-death, rage boosts, and hidden power.

Actually Goku said in that episode that they are as strong as the real ones. And Goku was fighting evenly against Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta was able to kick SS3 Gotenks to the ground.

As for episode 57. I can totally see the rage boost being an explanation. But my main gripe is how SS2 Trunks survived a Kamehame-ha that dealt major damage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku, and Trunks didn't even revert to Base. Him saying even Goku-san got beaten implies Goku is stronger than him.

Kuririn's power in the Freeza fight is indeed unexplained in the manga. But It is assumed that Great Elder's power-up is the reason why Kuririn got stronger. Vegeta said that Kuririn and Gohan's power are steadily rising before they fought Freeza, and even considered them to be some great help. Even V-Jump gave Kuririn a battle power of 75,000 at the start of the Freeza fight, and it might be even possible that his power at that time is still rising. Goku and Vegeta's boost in the same arc are from near-death power-ups, which seems to very inconsistent, and the boost depends on the plot.

[Helios518]

That's what I assumed too but the show makes it a bit weird. When Goku turns SSBlue for the first time, Krillin comments on how he can't sense Goku's Ki anymore, implying he could all up until that point. So, if Goku was using God Ki in his base to smash Final Form Freeza around, he should've been undetectable from the beginning, not just after transforming.

This comes up a few times. I think the reason why Goku's Ki becomes undetectable is because he only uses all of his God Ki when he turns Super Saiyan Blue. So when he's not using all his God Ki, his Ki can be sensed.

In a nutshell, Base Goku have minimal amount of God Ki, but Super Saiyan Blue have all of it. And Goku can only utilize of all of his God Ki by turning Super Saiyan, which will make him Blue.

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

Actually 50 x 50 is 2,500 but I like the idea that SSJB is 50x SSJ.