Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

I'm going with the 50 times boost to Super Saiyan 3 or 20,000 times boost to base. I'm subscribing to that one scan which says Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably it also has a 50 times boost to Black's base. Black's regular form was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Stronger after they fought in ep50), so with a 50 times boost it gives him a comfortable advantage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

P.S A 50x boost to Super Saiyan will be 2,500x base, not 25,000x.

Well I didn't almost consistently flunk at math during high school for nothing

Although, with a boost that low, it means SS4 is a good deal stronger than Blue if you subscribe to the idea it's 4000 or 5000 times base.

[Helios518]

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

I'm going with the 50 times boost to Super Saiyan 3 or 20,000 times boost to base. I'm subscribing to that one scan which says Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably it also has a 50 times boost to Black's base. Black's regular form was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Stronger after they fought in ep50), so with a 50 times boost it gives him a comfortable advantage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

P.S A 50x boost to Super Saiyan will be 2,500x base, not 25,000x.

Well I didn't almost consistently flunk at math during high school for nothing

Although, with a boost that low, it means SS4 is a good deal stronger than Blue if you subscribe to the idea it's 4000 or 5000 times base.

Well yeah SSJ4 may be stronger multiplier but that's heavily compensated with Current SSJ Goku being most likely stronger than everyone in GT.

[ekrolo2]

Well yeah SSJ4 may be stronger multiplier but that's heavily compensated with Current SSJ Goku being most likely stronger than everyone in GT.

I don't know, I saw a pretty compelling theory that makes Goku Base in GT crazy strong, potentially many times stronger than his base in Super.

[Helios518]

Well yeah SSJ4 may be stronger multiplier but that's heavily compensated with Current SSJ Goku being most likely stronger than everyone in GT.

I don't know, I saw a pretty compelling theory that makes Goku Base in GT crazy strong, potentially many times stronger than his base in Super.

IIRC The general consensus around here is that SSJ4 Goku is around the power of Boo Saga SSJ Vegetto (due to that one guidebook I can't seem to remember the name of) which is a lot lower than SSJG Goku/Current SSJ Goku. So I just use that.

[ekrolo2]

Well yeah SSJ4 may be stronger multiplier but that's heavily compensated with Current SSJ Goku being most likely stronger than everyone in GT.

I don't know, I saw a pretty compelling theory that makes Goku Base in GT crazy strong, potentially many times stronger than his base in Super.

IIRC The general consensus around here is that SSJ4 Goku is around the power of Boo Saga SSJ Vegetto (due to that one guidebook I can't seem to remember the name of) which is a lot lower than SSJG Goku/Current SSJ Goku.

Here's what RandomGuy wrote on the subject, I meant my whole comment on GT Goku being potentially stronger than current Goku, I'm working off the assumption Super is operating under the manga PLs whereas GT works off Zs which are a LOT bigger than the mangas.
[spoiler]Let me explain. As I've said a thousand times, I believe that SS4 is a x40,000 multiplier based on the Baby fight, where Super Baby 1 stomped SS3 Goku hard, then went to Super Baby 2, then Super Baby 3, then Golden Ape Baby, and then was only equal with SS4 Goku.

I base that mostly on the fight with Baby. Goku attacks Super Baby 1 in SS3 form and gets his ass kicked. This is his first form of three. I believe the GT Perfect Files compare his forms to SS forms... and why wouldn't they be? He's possessing Vegeta. Anyway, so in his equivalent of an SS form he kicks the crap out of Goku. That means he's over 400 times stronger than base Goku. Then he goes to his second form, then his third. Going by the multipliers that would put him over 3,200 Goku's base. Goku returns and transforms into a Golden Ape, making him x4,000 his base (SS3 x 10). Then he becomes a SS4 and lays the beat down on third form Baby. Then Baby transforms into a Golden Ape himself and is equal with SS4 Goku. If Baby was x500 stronger than base Goku in his first form, then everything else would fit together perfectly- he was strong enough to stomp Goku in that form. Yet his Golden Ape wasn't stomping SS4 Goku.


Another interesting tidbit is the infamous statement in the GT Perfect Files that Gohan never slacked off in his training. That basically says base Gohan in GT is at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan from Z.

Now here's where things get crazy. During the Baby Saga, base Goku effortlessly one-shots Baby Gohan just in base, even though Baby Gohan was a Super Saiyan. Ignoring any power up he may have gotten from being possessed, GT Super Saiyan Gohan would be Ultimate Gohan x 50. By my levels that'd by 160 billion x 50 = 8 trillion. Since base Goku thrashed him effortlessly, let's put him at 12 trillion.

Now, also using my levels for Goku and Vegeta, let's see how strong Vegetto would be if you take the SEG statement literally...

Vegetto- 100,000,000 x 100,000,000 = 10 quadrillion
-Base Vegetto x 50 = Super Vegetto: 500 quadrillion

Now, with my multiplier based on evidence from the Baby fight + the statements from the GT Perfect Files + Goku's feats against SS Baby Gohan, let's see how strong he is...

Goku- 12 trillion
-Base Goku x 40,000 = 480 quadrillion.

There you have it. Super Vegetto is "perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4", that is, the only Super Saiyan 4 that existed at the time that statement was made, and is still Goku x Vegeta. Let me know if I made an error.[/spoiler]

[Helios518]

I don't know, I saw a pretty compelling theory that makes Goku Base in GT crazy strong, potentially many times stronger than his base in Super.

IIRC The general consensus around here is that SSJ4 Goku is around the power of Boo Saga SSJ Vegetto (due to that one guidebook I can't seem to remember the name of) which is a lot lower than SSJG Goku/Current SSJ Goku.

Here's what RandomGuy wrote on the subject, I meant my whole comment on GT Goku being potentially stronger than current Goku, I'm working off the assumption Super is operating under the manga PLs whereas GT works off Zs which are a LOT bigger than the mangas.
[spoiler]Let me explain. As I've said a thousand times, I believe that SS4 is a x40,000 multiplier based on the Baby fight, where Super Baby 1 stomped SS3 Goku hard, then went to Super Baby 2, then Super Baby 3, then Golden Ape Baby, and then was only equal with SS4 Goku.

I base that mostly on the fight with Baby. Goku attacks Super Baby 1 in SS3 form and gets his ass kicked. This is his first form of three. I believe the GT Perfect Files compare his forms to SS forms... and why wouldn't they be? He's possessing Vegeta. Anyway, so in his equivalent of an SS form he kicks the crap out of Goku. That means he's over 400 times stronger than base Goku. Then he goes to his second form, then his third. Going by the multipliers that would put him over 3,200 Goku's base. Goku returns and transforms into a Golden Ape, making him x4,000 his base (SS3 x 10). Then he becomes a SS4 and lays the beat down on third form Baby. Then Baby transforms into a Golden Ape himself and is equal with SS4 Goku. If Baby was x500 stronger than base Goku in his first form, then everything else would fit together perfectly- he was strong enough to stomp Goku in that form. Yet his Golden Ape wasn't stomping SS4 Goku.


Another interesting tidbit is the infamous statement in the GT Perfect Files that Gohan never slacked off in his training. That basically says base Gohan in GT is at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan from Z.

Now here's where things get crazy. During the Baby Saga, base Goku effortlessly one-shots Baby Gohan just in base, even though Baby Gohan was a Super Saiyan. Ignoring any power up he may have gotten from being possessed, GT Super Saiyan Gohan would be Ultimate Gohan x 50. By my levels that'd by 160 billion x 50 = 8 trillion. Since base Goku thrashed him effortlessly, let's put him at 12 trillion.

Now, also using my levels for Goku and Vegeta, let's see how strong Vegetto would be if you take the SEG statement literally...

Vegetto- 100,000,000 x 100,000,000 = 10 quadrillion
-Base Vegetto x 50 = Super Vegetto: 500 quadrillion

Now, with my multiplier based on evidence from the Baby fight + the statements from the GT Perfect Files + Goku's feats against SS Baby Gohan, let's see how strong he is...

Goku- 12 trillion
-Base Goku x 40,000 = 480 quadrillion.

There you have it. Super Vegetto is "perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4", that is, the only Super Saiyan 4 that existed at the time that statement was made, and is still Goku x Vegeta. Let me know if I made an error.[/spoiler]

There's many things there I think are wrong but of course this is the Super PL thread not the GT thread so lets just agree to disagree.

[Marlowe89]

My personal theory: I think the production problems that plagued the anime also spilled into the writing and animation to the point where future arcs were poorly planned in terms of consistency and the staff had no idea how strong characters were at any given point and whether they were using God ki or not. Obviously these is compounded by having writers and animators rotate out so what we get is an inconsistent mess where not even the production staff are sure what they are supposed to be making and presenting with the anime.

Honestly, looking over all the concepts and new mechanics introduced in Super I think you could be correct on that front. There are times when the anime and manga seem aligned or similar enough to each other in regards to relative standings between the characters of a specific arc, but there are other times when they're completely contradictory and the anime appears to do its own thing.

I really think the problems may have started with the anime's BoG arc and perhaps the RoF arc as well - Toriyama wasn't directly involved with them, after all, as they were an adaptation of another adaptation of Toriyama's original film scripts. And who knows how specific his plot outlines are for the U6 and Zamasu arcs?

[HeroR]

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

I'm going with the 50 times boost to Super Saiyan 3 or 20,000 times boost to base. I'm subscribing to that one scan which says Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably it also has a 50 times boost to Black's base. Black's regular form was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Stronger after they fought in ep50), so with a 50 times boost it gives him a comfortable advantage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

P.S A 50x boost to Super Saiyan will be 2,500x base, not 25,000x.

Aw, I see. Since they were just copies made by Buu's imagination and not the real thing, I always assumed that was why they were underpowered and immortal. And Vegeta got his butt kicked by Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He only got hit in when he made Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon hit Gotenks.

As for Trunks in Episode 57, I think it is obvious now that he got a rage boost since he performance in Episode 61 was extremely lackluster, and Goku and Vegeta had to shield him. Which does make sense since you see Trunks losing it and powering up against Black. That along with his sneak attack on Black and Zamasu going on his motive rant.

The manga also had power level oddities, like how did Krillin perform so well against second form Freeza when he doesn't get a boost from near-death and was one-shotted by Recoome? And how did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million just by Vegeta beating him up when Ginyu had his body? And how did Vegeta go from just over 30,000 to matching first form Freeza after getting beating by the Ginyu Force? Even getting owned by Zarbon only took him from 24,000 to over 30,000. At least Gohan got the excuse of getting stronger from near-death, rage boosts, and hidden power.

Actually Goku said in that episode that they are as strong as the real ones. And Goku was fighting evenly against Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta was able to kick SS3 Gotenks to the ground.

As for episode 57. I can totally see the rage boost being an explanation. But my main gripe is how SS2 Trunks survived a Kamehame-ha that dealt major damage to Super Saiyan Blue Goku, and Trunks didn't even revert to Base. Him saying even Goku-san got beaten implies Goku is stronger than him.

Kuririn's power in the Freeza fight is indeed unexplained in the manga. But It is assumed that Great Elder's power-up is the reason why Kuririn got stronger. Vegeta said that Kuririn and Gohan's power are steadily rising before they fought Freeza, and even considered them to be some great help. Even V-Jump gave Kuririn a battle power of 75,000 at the start of the Freeza fight, and it might be even possible that his power at that time is still rising. Goku and Vegeta's boost in the same arc are from near-death power-ups, which seems to very inconsistent, and the boost depends on the plot.

I think Vegeta was BSing about Krillin. Even then, he shouldn't have lasted as long against Freeza.

I see Trunks surviving that Kamehameha no more BS than Piccolo withstanding hits from 50% Freeza when he got destroyed by Freeza's third form, and he wasn't even trying. And it's possible that Goku took the blunt of the blow since he was more in front while Trunks was on the side.

[TheMikado]

My personal theory: I think the production problems that plagued the anime also spilled into the writing and animation to the point where future arcs were poorly planned in terms of consistency and the staff had no idea how strong characters were at any given point and whether they were using God ki or not. Obviously these is compounded by having writers and animators rotate out so what we get is an inconsistent mess where not even the production staff are sure what they are supposed to be making and presenting with the anime.

Honestly, looking over all the concepts and new mechanics introduced in Super I think you could be correct on that front. There are times when the anime and manga seem aligned or similar enough to each other in regards to relative standings between the characters of a specific arc, but there are other times when they're completely contradictory and the anime appears to do its own thing.

I really think the problems may have started with the anime's BoG arc and perhaps the RoF arc as well - Toriyama wasn't directly involved with them, after all, as they were an adaptation of another adaptation of Toriyama's original film scripts. And who knows how specific his plot outlines are for the U6 and Zamasu arcs?

Exactly. My theory was that the time from announcement of the series to actually airing it was so short that preproduction severely suffered. I think the execs just said they would adapt the movies while Toriyama and crew worked on new content. By the time they figured out the direction they wanted to go with the new content the anime was likely already airing and never got a chance to check it for consistency. Rather than the anime backtracking on the first part of the entire series they kept trying "make it work".

[ekrolo2]

I think Vegeta was BSing about Krillin. Even then, he shouldn't have lasted as long against Freeza.

I see Trunks surviving that Kamehameha no more BS than Piccolo withstanding hits from 50% Freeza when he got destroyed by Freeza's third form, and he wasn't even trying. And it's possible that Goku took the blunt of the blow since he was more in front while Trunks was on the side.

Krillin's chase against Freeza lasts barely half a page in the manga after he throws his Kienzan at the guy, Freeza catches up to him almost immediately and he resorts to using Taiyo-Ken

Piccolo never fights Freeza in the manga at 50% power, he kicks him in the head then Gohan & Krillin attack him some more and Goku finishes it off with the Spirit Bomb. That whole bit with him getting beaten up was anime only.

[Khin]

I think Vegeta was BSing about Krillin. Even then, he shouldn't have lasted as long against Freeza.

I see Trunks surviving that Kamehameha no more BS than Piccolo withstanding hits from 50% Freeza when he got destroyed by Freeza's third form, and he wasn't even trying. And it's possible that Goku took the blunt of the blow since he was more in front while Trunks was on the side.

It's not just Vegeta who said it, Gohan also said they've gotten stronger. Freeza and Kuririn didn't even fight, all Kuririn did was fire Kienzan and use Taiou-ken.

All Piccolo did was kick an off-guard Freeza, that's it. Checking the Kamehame-ha scene, Goku and Trunks are both on the side, Zamasu was the one in the middle.

[HeroR]

I think Vegeta was BSing about Krillin. Even then, he shouldn't have lasted as long against Freeza.

I see Trunks surviving that Kamehameha no more BS than Piccolo withstanding hits from 50% Freeza when he got destroyed by Freeza's third form, and he wasn't even trying. And it's possible that Goku took the blunt of the blow since he was more in front while Trunks was on the side.

It's not just Vegeta who said it, Gohan also said they've gotten stronger. Freeza and Kuririn didn't even fight, all Kuririn did was fire Kienzan and use Taiou-ken.

All Piccolo did was kick an off-guard Freeza, that's it. Checking the Kamehame-ha scene, Goku and Trunks are both on the side, Zamasu was the one in the middle.

Given Freeza's superior speed, he should have outran and murdered Krillin before he could even think of the Solar Flare. I also don't remember the Grand Elder's power being power over time, otherwise Krillin should have been stronger by the time he fought the Ginyu Force since he got his power-up days ago by that point.

Freeza beat Piccolo up while Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb, unless that only happened in the anime.

[ekrolo2]

Given Freeza's superior speed, he should have outran and murdered Krillin before he could even think of the Solar Flare. I also don't remember the Grand Elder's power being power over time, otherwise Krillin should have been stronger by the time he fought the Ginyu Force since he got his power-up days ago by that point.

Freeza beat Piccolo up while Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb, unless that only happened in the anime.

Freeza can murder anyone of them at any point but he doesn't because he likes to taunt & torture them. The reason Krillin even gets a shot at Taiyo-Ken is because Freeza just spent a while talking about how he was going to murder the shit out of him for cutting his tail off.

Piccolo doesn't fight Freeza at 50%, all he does is kick him in the face, tell Goku to hurry up because that was all he could do in this situation and then Goku bombs Freeza.

[Khin]

Given Freeza's superior speed, he should have outran and murdered Krillin before he could even think of the Solar Flare. I also don't remember the Grand Elder's power being power over time, otherwise Krillin should have been stronger by the time he fought the Ginyu Force since he got his power-up days ago by that point.

Freeza beat Piccolo up while Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb, unless that only happened in the anime.

Freeza can murder anyone of them at any point but he doesn't because he likes to taunt & torture them. The reason Krillin even gets a shot at Taiyo-Ken is because Freeza just spent a while talking about how he was going to murder the shit out of him for cutting his tail off.

Piccolo doesn't fight Freeza at 50%, all he does is kick him in the face, tell Goku to hurry up because that was all he could do in this situation and then Goku bombs Freeza.

Ditto.

Piccolo's fight with Freeza is filler. And Freeza was basically just dicking with everyone the whole time until Goku turns Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This comes up a few times. I think the reason why Goku's Ki becomes undetectable is because he only uses all of his God Ki when he turns Super Saiyan Blue. So when he's not using all his God Ki, his Ki can be sensed.

In a nutshell, Base Goku have minimal amount of God Ki, but Super Saiyan Blue have all of it. And Goku can only utilize of all of his God Ki by turning Super Saiyan, which will make him Blue.

How do you think this affects the multipliers? Super Saiyan Blue can't just be a times fifty boost as SS2 and SS3 would make it obsolete. One way I can see SS Blue working is if its a 50 times boost to Goku's SS power which should roughly be equal to his SSG strength, making Blue a 25 000 times base multiplier.

Actually 50 x 50 is 2,500 but I like the idea that SSJB is 50x SSJ.

I don't know about that, it has to be above Super Vegetto at the very least and I'm sure Base Vegetto is above SSJ Goku.

[ekrolo2]

So, after coming up with a half-way decent explanation for SSBlue's multiplier of 2500 times Base, I've tried to take a crack at determining just how much stronger Goku &Vegeta are after all this God business. For the sake of having some benchmark, I'm gonna have their post-absorption Base powers be roughly on par with Boo era Super Vegetto or 1 trillion according to my last list.

Goku and by extension Vegeta are said to be beneath Namek Freeza so under a 120 million, so let's put them at a 100 million a piece. To just catch up to Super Vegetto, they'd both need a boost of about 10 000 times but wait! Goku's Super Saiyan form is what holds the full power of SSG, meaning on top of that 10 000 times boost, we need to add Super Saiyan into the equation, reaching a possible multiplier for Super Saiyan God equalling 500 000 times Base power!

Since Super Saiyan Blue is called the Super Saiyan to a Super Saiyan God, meaning another 50 times increase, this more or less shows us that Goku and Vegeta are now, at the very least, 25 million times stronger than they were pre-absorption!

[TheUltimateNinja]

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

[Khin]

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta said in the recent episode that Black's power kept rising the more he fights, he also gets stronger by taking damage. Black went on a rampage fighting and killing Kaioshins and gods throughout the 12 Universes, surely that must've made him vastly stronger. He also fought Trunks for an entire year, and fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

It can easily be assumed that Vegeta was just holding back against Base Black. Since we saw him pummeling SSR Black before he got caught off guard. Unless you think SSR gives a minimal boost. But SSR is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably that must have give him a 50x boost too.

[Helios518]

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta probably didn't use all his power as a SSJB.

1) Black was said the be on the level if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3 so he uses the next best thing but of course not at full power.

2) Vegeta underestimated Black because he didnt expect Black to grow much in power. Although base Black is likely still in the realm between their SSJ3 and SSJB.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta probably didn't use all his power as a SSJB.

1) Black was said the be on the level if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3 so he uses the next best thing but of course not at full power.

2) Vegeta underestimated Black because he didnt expect Black to grow much in power. Although base Black is likely still in the realm between their SSJ3 and SSJB.

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta said in the recent episode that Black's power kept rising the more he fights, he also gets stronger by taking damage. Black went on a rampage fighting and killing Kaioshins and gods throughout the 12 Universes, surely that must've made him vastly stronger. He also fought Trunks for an entire year, and fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

It can easily be assumed that Vegeta was just holding back against Base Black. Since we saw him pummeling SSR Black before he got caught off guard. Unless you think SSR gives a minimal boost. But SSR is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably that must have give him a 50x boost too.

He was pounding Black into the ground and was clearly putting quite a bit of effort into doing so, but suddenly backs away and Black gets back up totally unaffected. If Vegeta sees his attacks are doing nothing, why would he back away instead of hitting harder? If SSRose has a 50x multiplier and Vegeta is almost even with that, that means he was using only 1% of his power against Base Black which I really doubt he was considering how pissed off he was.