Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta probably didn't use all his power as a SSJB.

1) Black was said the be on the level if not stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3 so he uses the next best thing but of course not at full power.

2) Vegeta underestimated Black because he didnt expect Black to grow much in power. Although base Black is likely still in the realm between their SSJ3 and SSJB.

For those of you who believe in only one base, how do you explain Black's power? He stands up to SSBlue Vegeta in base, at this point Vegeta isn't holding back at all and is going for the kill, yet when he goes SSRose his performance against Vegeta doesn't improve all that much, so do you just have SSRose as a 5% boost or something? Black is just Zamasu in Goku's body so he should opt for the far superior SSJ transformations if the boost he gets from SSRose is so low.

Vegeta said in the recent episode that Black's power kept rising the more he fights, he also gets stronger by taking damage. Black went on a rampage fighting and killing Kaioshins and gods throughout the 12 Universes, surely that must've made him vastly stronger. He also fought Trunks for an entire year, and fought Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

It can easily be assumed that Vegeta was just holding back against Base Black. Since we saw him pummeling SSR Black before he got caught off guard. Unless you think SSR gives a minimal boost. But SSR is Black's version of Super Saiyan, so presumably that must have give him a 50x boost too.

He was pounding Black into the ground and was clearly putting quite a bit of effort into doing so, but suddenly backs away and Black gets back up totally unaffected. If Vegeta sees his attacks are doing nothing, why would he back away instead of hitting harder? If SSRose has a 50x multiplier and Vegeta is almost even with that, that means he was using only 1% of his power against Base Black which I really doubt he was considering how pissed off he was.

He could be putting a lot of effort at a low percentage of his power. Look at the anime SSJG fight with Beerus, Beerus used less than 10% in that fight possibly even less than 1% if you think Current SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku but you could see the effort that Beerus was putting in.

[Khin]

He was pounding Black into the ground and was clearly putting quite a bit of effort into doing so, but suddenly backs away and Black gets back up totally unaffected. If Vegeta sees his attacks are doing nothing, why would he back away instead of hitting harder? If SSRose has a 50x multiplier and Vegeta is almost even with that, that means he was using only 1% of his power against Base Black which I really doubt he was considering how pissed off he was.

He backed down not because Black is unaffected, but because he noticed something about him, likely the whole ''Black gets stronger by taking damage'' thing. Vegeta only got pissed at Black after Black turned SSR and ignored him, before that, he was confident that he can take him out. And starts the fight with a cocky smile.

Only thing Vegeta knew about Black at that time is that he's about as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. He won't take the risk of losing stamina by turning Super Saiyan 3, so he turns Blue instead.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He could be putting a lot of effort at a low percentage of his power. Look at the anime SSJG fight with Beerus, Beerus used less than 10% in that fight possibly even less than 1% if you think Current SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku but you could see the effort that Beerus was putting in.

The thing is unlike Beerus who was holding back for a good fight, Vegeta has no reason to hold back, he wants to kill Black for killing Future Bulma and ruining his son's timeline, so why would he use such a low % of his power and let Black live instead of killing him right there?

[Bullza]

Incredible. Now you're changing your argument from "But they were clearly looking at the white waves!" to "But there were clearly white waves!" despite there being absolutely no indication that Goku and Vegeta were looking at them and not their bodies after not letting their ki leak.

It's the exact same argument. The Godly Ki and the pressure they were referring to was the white air that was surrounding the dimension they were in. They themselves do not have God Ki, you're making that assumption just because Vegeta looked at his hand of which the white air was flowing in between.

That's not what's implicitly suggested by Vegeta's statement. At all.

Yes it is. Just as it's suggested by Whis' statement as well which you ignored.

Whis was concerned about throwing them into this dimension. The concern being the pressure of the dimension was something that they weren't ready for. The same pressure that made them unable to move at first. This pressure is Godly Ki like Vegeta said.

No it wouldn't because Zamasu flat-out called the blue aura God ki, a part you keep ignoring because you know it refutes your argument. And now you're trying to shift the debate exclusively to Episode 22 when, in fact, Episode 20 is all that's needed.

I know there was a blue aura. I'm saying it kills part of your argument.

You said that in the other dimension they powered up and then didn't let their Ki leak out and at that point they had Godly Ki. Well that's obviously wrong now as we know it was the atmosphere and they didn't actually have Godly Ki.

They did manifest Godly Ki but they have never had it permanently in their Base forms as you suggest. So there is no two bases.

[TheMikado]

So, after coming up with a half-way decent explanation for SSBlue's multiplier of 2500 times Base, I've tried to take a crack at determining just how much stronger Goku &Vegeta are after all this God business. For the sake of having some benchmark, I'm gonna have their post-absorption Base powers be roughly on par with Boo era Super Vegetto or 1 trillion according to my last list.

Goku and by extension Vegeta are said to be beneath Namek Freeza so under a 120 million, so let's put them at a 100 million a piece. To just catch up to Super Vegetto, they'd both need a boost of about 10 000 times but wait! Goku's Super Saiyan form is what holds the full power of SSG, meaning on top of that 10 000 times boost, we need to add Super Saiyan into the equation, reaching a possible multiplier for Super Saiyan God equalling 500 000 times Base power!

Since Super Saiyan Blue is called the Super Saiyan to a Super Saiyan God, meaning another 50 times increase, this more or less shows us that Goku and Vegeta are now, at the very least, 25 million times stronger than they were pre-absorption!

^ that's exactly what I've been railing against. This pretty much goes contrary to the attempts to curb the severe power escalation we saw in the middle of Z. When Toriyama talks about SSJ as seemingly only a x10 multiplier why would he turn around and make a permanent 25,000,000x multiplier mechanism.
People still complain about the x33 Zenkai and the x50 SSJ form or x20 KK but all those pale in comparison to Supers multipliers and it's not even close.

[Helios518]

He could be putting a lot of effort at a low percentage of his power. Look at the anime SSJG fight with Beerus, Beerus used less than 10% in that fight possibly even less than 1% if you think Current SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku but you could see the effort that Beerus was putting in.

The thing is unlike Beerus who was holding back for a good fight, Vegeta has no reason to hold back, he wants to kill Black for killing Future Bulma and ruining his son's timeline, so why would he use such a low % of his power and let Black live instead of killing him right there?

Because Vegeta is still prone to being cocky when he thinks he's/is winning and sometimes leads him to underestimate his opponents and still doesn't help that Black got stronger than before. He could be holding back because there's no point of using all of his power when he thinks he could use a smaller fraction of his power to do the same job.

So it's a mix of Cockiness/Underestimation & conserving energy.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He could be putting a lot of effort at a low percentage of his power. Look at the anime SSJG fight with Beerus, Beerus used less than 10% in that fight possibly even less than 1% if you think Current SSJ Goku = SSJG Goku but you could see the effort that Beerus was putting in.

The thing is unlike Beerus who was holding back for a good fight, Vegeta has no reason to hold back, he wants to kill Black for killing Future Bulma and ruining his son's timeline, so why would he use such a low % of his power and let Black live instead of killing him right there?

Because Vegeta is still prone to being cocky when he thinks/is winning and sometimes leads him to underestimate is opponents and still doesn't help that Black got stronger than before.

If Vegeta using 1-2% of his power in SSBlue is still above his SSJ2, this suggests that SSBlue must at minimum have a 10,000x multiplier as 100x100 = 10,000.

[Helios518]

The thing is unlike Beerus who was holding back for a good fight, Vegeta has no reason to hold back, he wants to kill Black for killing Future Bulma and ruining his son's timeline, so why would he use such a low % of his power and let Black live instead of killing him right there?

Because Vegeta is still prone to being cocky when he thinks/is winning and sometimes leads him to underestimate is opponents and still doesn't help that Black got stronger than before.

If Vegeta using 1-2% of his power in SSBlue is still above his SSJ2, this suggests that SSBlue must at minimum have a 10,000x multiplier as 100x100 = 10,000.

We don't know the multiplier for SSJB/SSJR nor how much Black improved (hint: a lot) after his first fight with Goku but considering Black still needs to use SSJR to fight the saiyans despite his constant power increase then you can tell it's actually a bigger boost then you're making it. Also Trunks said "Goku-san's going full power from the start?" implying Vegeta was holding back some power.

[dbgtFO]

Also Trunks said "Goku-san's going full power from the start?" implying Vegeta was holding back some power.

That is just a callback to Vegeta telling Trunks that Goku has a bad habit of holding back at the start of fights.
It says nothing about Vegeta.

[Helios518]

Also Trunks said "Goku-san's going full power from the start?" implying Vegeta was holding back some power.

That is just a callback to Vegeta telling Trunks that Goku has a bad habit of holding back at the start of fights.
It says nothing about Vegeta.

When did Vegeta say that to Trunks?

[Marlowe89]

you're making that assumption just because Vegeta looked at his hand of which the white air was flowing in between.

I'm not assuming anything. You explicitly said (and I can quote you if you want) they were looking at the "white waves" of energy in the dimension. Well, they weren't. The white waves flow past them and their eye contact remains fixed on their hands/bodies: http://i.imgur.com/8vFua7e.png

So regardless of whether Vegeta was referring to himself or the dimension when mentioning God ki, your assertion that he was looking at those moving white waves you kept mentioning isn't supportive of anything either way since he was clearly staring at his hand.

Yes it is.

No it isn't. Your argument was that maybe there's a difference between sensing the pressure of God ki in Whis' dimension and sensing it outside of it, and that's when I said it's irrelevant to the actual content of Vegeta's remark because he doesn't mention Whis' dimension at all in that statement.

You said that in the other dimension they powered up and then didn't let their Ki leak out and at that point they had Godly Ki. Well that's obviously wrong now as we know it was the atmosphere and they didn't actually have Godly Ki.

That's a false equivalency. Even if you and I agree that Vegeta was referring to the atmosphere, that doesn't say anything about whether they tapped into God ki because A.) there's nothing said about them not possessing God ki anywhere in Episode 22's dialogue, B.) neither of them said they could sense the God ki of Whis' dimension until raising their ki within themselves so there's obviously some connection, and C.) your insistence that there's no relation at all between the fact that God ki cannot be sensed under normal circumstances and their training in which they're SPECIFICALLY not letting their ki be sensed is absurd and honestly gives me the impression that you're being deliberately obtuse.

But enough of this, let's get to the crux of the entire discussion:

They did manifest Godly Ki

Then your argument that them training to raise their ki only within themselves has nothing to do with them manifesting God ki is false, since they didn't manifest it until the MOMENT AFTER Whis instructed them to prevent their ki from leaking. Your argument that they never used God ki in base is also false. Moreover, your assumption that said God ki was only temporary is completely speculative and likely false as well since they were observing their own bodies in amazement after they were finished clashing their fists.

Exactly. My theory was that the time from announcement of the series to actually airing it was so short that preproduction severely suffered. I think the execs just said they would adapt the movies while Toriyama and crew worked on new content. By the time they figured out the direction they wanted to go with the new content the anime was likely already airing and never got a chance to check it for consistency. Rather than the anime backtracking on the first part of the entire series they kept trying "make it work".

At this point, I'm almost certain it has to do with the timing of Toei's production. The interesting thing is that if we disregard BoG and maybe some of the filler, the power discrepancy between the anime and manga is more or less solved with the exception of Trunks. There was the whole difference of 1/10 SSB Vegeta vs. SSB 10X Kaioken Goku in the U6 tournament, but in the end, that didn't affect their default strength at all.

[Noah]

That is just a callback to Vegeta telling Trunks that Goku has a bad habit of holding back at the start of fights.
It says nothing about Vegeta.

When did Vegeta say that to Trunks?

When they're watching Super Saiyan 2 Goku fighting against Goku Black in Episode #50

[Bullza]

The white waves flow past them and their eye contact remains fixed on their hands/bodies: http://i.imgur.com/8vFua7e.png

The entire dimension was filled with this energy. Them showing the white waves flowing around his hand was just a visual thing to drive that point in to people. Him still looking at his hand doesn't mean that he is the one who has Godly Ki. He's referring to the pressure that's being put on his body and you know that because that's why they could not move.

Even in your picture you can see this energy right by his face. It was all around them.

Again the summary nor the fact checker thread point to this being true with no mention of them having Godly Ki and you're still ignoring that the pressure of the place was the cause of Whis' concern. What other possible reason would he have to say that they weren't ready?

Even if you and I agree that Vegeta was referring to the atmosphere, that doesn't say anything about whether they tapped into God ki because A.) there's nothing said about them not possessing God ki anywhere in Episode 22's dialogue, B.) neither of them said they could sense the God ki of Whis' dimension until raising their ki within themselves so there's obviously some connection, and C.) your insistence that there's no relation at all between the fact that God ki cannot be sensed under normal circumstances and their training in which they're SPECIFICALLY not letting their ki be sensed is absurd and honestly gives me the impression that you're being deliberately obtuse.

Exactly, there isn't anything said in Episode 22 about them possessing God Ki. In fact it wasn't said in any episode that they possessed God Ki in Base form.

Likewise you don't know that they couldn't sense that energy the moment they were thrown into that place. The immediate concern for them was not being able to move which was distracting them from everything else. Once they were able to move normally was when they then not only brought up the comment about the place having Godly Ki but also about it being similar to the ROSAT.

That's like you saying that they didn't realise the place was like the ROSAT until after they stopped their Ki from leaking out.

They can sense God Ki under normal circumstances. Vegeta can sense Whis' Godly Ki when not letting his Ki leak out just like he can sense the Godly Ki in the other dimension without letting his Ki leak out.

Then your argument that them training to raise their ki only within themselves has nothing to do with them manifesting God ki is false

Then maybe it is false. I still think it was just a simple tease for Super Blue. They did a clash it created a flash of blue energy somehow.

Afterall you said this

"that statement implicitly suggests he's never felt God ki before or the pressure associated with it."

So if you're saying that Vegeta in Episode 22 had never felt God Ki before then why are you saying that it was God Ki in Episode 20? And again why did he not say "Is this God Ki?" at that point?

[TheMikado]

Exactly. My theory was that the time from announcement of the series to actually airing it was so short that preproduction severely suffered. I think the execs just said they would adapt the movies while Toriyama and crew worked on new content. By the time they figured out the direction they wanted to go with the new content the anime was likely already airing and never got a chance to check it for consistency. Rather than the anime backtracking on the first part of the entire series they kept trying "make it work".

At this point, I'm almost certain it has to do with the timing of Toei's production. The interesting thing is that if we disregard BoG and maybe some of the filler, the power discrepancy between the anime and manga is more or less solved with the exception of Trunks. There was the whole difference of 1/10 SSB Vegeta vs. SSB 10X Kaioken Goku in the U6 tournament, but in the end, that didn't affect their default strength at all.

Right when you take the entire product and it's production in as a whole i don't think is a coincidence that the power levels just happen to fall in line when applying the "two base" theory to certain situations. I'm still of the mindset that the anime doesn't actually use a "God" base in combat and just makes their normal bases extra strong but again I think that's primarily of the staff not having a clear direction for future arcs.

[Marlowe89]

Going to make this short, this constant back-and-forth of a trillion quotes is starting to get exhausting even for me.

Then maybe it is false.

Then why are we still having this argument? Look, I'm not even trying to argue that Goku and Vegeta ever used these "God ki base" forms in combat - I'm just pointing out that it happened, regardless, and it happened literally the moment after Whis told them to prevent their ki from leaking while raising it. After the clash, Goku and Vegeta proceed to look at their own bodies with amazement. We know that the blue aura is God ki because Zamasu said it was, not to mention that the first time we see a blue aura in the anime is when Goku undertook the SSG ritual during the BoG arc as seen here: http://i.imgur.com/Zg8iPim.png

Surely what I'm pointing out then isn't posing any threat to the viewpoints you might already have. I still have my personal beliefs in regards to the strength of Goku's normal base and whether he kept the power he absorbed from SSG, and I may post my reasoning for that in a bit, but I wasn't trying to make those beliefs my main point of contention which is why I was trying to get off the BoG discussion.

Afterall you said this

"that statement implicitly suggests he's never felt God ki before or the pressure associated with it."

So if you're saying that Vegeta in Episode 22 had never felt God Ki before then why are you saying that it was God Ki in Episode 20?

As you can see yourself, I said "OR the pressure associated with it" which means that - assuming he was referring to Whis' dimension as opposed to himself - it may have been the first time he felt its pressure against his body. As I've acknowledged many times, I don't really have a huge problem with the interpretation that Whis' dimension was filled with God ki and that that's what Vegeta was mentioning in particular since it doesn't really contradict the events in Episode 20.

[Bullza]

Then why are we still having this argument?

I'm just saying in a nutshell that there aren't two bases.

Base Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God as of the end of the Beerus fight and has been at least that strong ever since then. Thus explaining why they were able to withstand Beerus' unrestrained attacks.

There isn't a Base Goku who doesn't have God Ki whose at one level of strenght and then another Base Goku who does have God Ki who is much stronger. This explaining why they never did such a thing when fighting anybody.

I think as Whis said it was just about them not letting their Ki leak out so their opponent couldn't sense them. He said nothing about it having anything to do with God Ki.

The blue aura that appeared briefly I can't really explain. I do think it was just a tease or just tapping into the Super Saiyan Blue briefly. I don't think they had God Ki from not letting Ki leak out because that just doesn't make any sense anyway, nobody said at the time it was God Ki and they didn't have God Ki from doing the same thing in Episode 22 where there was also no blue aura either.

[Marlowe89]

I think as Whis said it was just about them not letting their Ki leak out so their opponent couldn't sense them. He said nothing about it having anything to do with God Ki.

Which I suppose is the main part of our whole disagreement. The scene itself is incredibly straightforward: Goku and Vegeta spar, Whis tells them that they're sparring wrong and that they need to raise their ki without letting it leak out so it can't be sensed - and by the way, one of the most pivotal attributes of God ki is that it can't be sensed - they proceed to do so, and then a visualization of God ki is shown followed by Goku and Vegeta looking completely shocked which is then finally followed by them observing themselves in awe.

If the whole context of the scene doesn't tell you that Whis' exercise was directly related to them triggering God ki and that said God ki made them stronger when using it, then it's clear to me that we'll never get any headway in this discussion.

The blue aura that appeared briefly I can't really explain.

Nor do you need to, since the anime itself confirms that the blue aura is God ki. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to get around it, that's just the way it is.

[ZombieVito]

I think as Whis said it was just about them not letting their Ki leak out so their opponent couldn't sense them. He said nothing about it having anything to do with God Ki.

Which I suppose is the main part of our whole disagreement. The scene itself is incredibly straightforward: Goku and Vegeta spar, Whis tells them that they're sparring wrong and that they need to raise their ki without letting it leak out so it can't be sensed - and by the way, one of the most pivotal attributes of God ki is that it can't be sensed - they proceed to do so, and then a visualization of God ki is shown followed by Goku and Vegeta looking completely shocked which is then finally followed by them observing themselves in awe.

If the whole context of the scene doesn't tell you that Whis' exercise was directly related to them triggering God ki and that said God ki made them stronger when using it, then it's clear to me that we'll never get any headway in this discussion.

The blue aura that appeared briefly I can't really explain.

Nor do you need to, since the anime itself confirms that the blue aura is God ki. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to get around it, that's just the way it is.

After watching the scene again I have to agree. That's definitively god ki in base when they clash in episode 20.

[Bullza]

The scene itself is incredibly straightforward: Goku and Vegeta spar, Whis tells them that they're sparring wrong and that they need to raise their ki without letting it leak out so it can't be sensed

And again there was no mention by Whis that by raising their Ki without letting it leak is how they obtain God Ki. Something that was further confirmed by the fact that them raising their Ki and not letting it leak out in Episode 22 did not give them God Ki at all.

Just like there was also never any mention that Base Goku got any weaker from being Super Saiyan God level after fighting Beerus. Them withstanding Beerus' unrestrained attacks proved as much.

The one and only reason that was given was so that their opponents couldn't sense them.

Nor do you need to, since the anime itself confirms that the blue aura is God ki. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to get around it, that's just the way it is.

The same of which can be said for the anime confirming that Goku losing God Ki in his fight with Beerus did not affect his strenght in any way. The anime also confirmed that Base Goku was on Super Saiyan God's level.

Toriyama also confirmed that Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God so he wouldn't need to transform into it again before he'd even thought of him training with Whis.

So if Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God without God Ki then the argument that he is only as strong as Super Saiyan God with God Ki is obviously false because we know he was already that strong anyway.

The anime also confirmed that they did not use this power to increase their Base strenght when fighting Frieza or seemingly anyone else.

[TheMikado]

I think we've covered this before but you're using information from years prior to refute information presented recently. It doesn't make sense. No matter how you slice it they are shown using God ki in base. No one is making the argument that they were or should have been using it throughout the show or what it means beyond that. Just that it's explicitly shown to occur in the anime universe.

If you want to write it away as a production issue that's fine but it still occurred.