Who uses their brain and who doesn't?

[Li'l Lemmy]

I was discussing this one with mah buddy Suupaa Gohan 2 the other day, and it turns out this could make for a discussion-worthy topic. I don't think we've seen it for awhile, so why not?

Let's get some debate going on this one . . . or will our choices be so universal as to make debate unnecessary? Let's find out!!

Who is the most intelligent fighter on the battlefield? (This applies to DragonBall, DBZ and/or DBGT.)

Your pick for the character who shows the most brains in a fight and why. Who among the Z Senshi is a force to be reckoned with in terms of mental ability?

Who is the most RETARDED?

Your pick for the character who is possibly without a brain and evidence to support your theory. Is there someone who doesn't think straight, makes stupid decisions or is otherwise under the constant influence of a brain fart?

I have my own choices, but I'm going to elaborate on those a bit later when I have more time to get really involved (not to mention that SG2 kinda swayed me into accepting her choice for the smartest, so I wanna let her have first dibs). I'm expecting some decent back-and-forth on this one by the time I get back, though . . . have at it!


~Da Lemmy

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

(not to mention that SG2 kinda swayed me into accepting her choice for the smartest, so I wanna let her have first dibs).

Eehhh? I did WHAT now? Um, stupid, of all the things I threaten and blackmail you to coerce you into doing, 'swaying you into accepting my choice' was not one of them. o.o

That being said, you only made this topic as a means to try to get me to come back to the forum >.>

That being said, my take on this...

I don't think any of them do, really...

Gokou obviously fights on instinct and ability. No brains in that head.

Vegeta fights for his goals, power, and motivation. He's often blinded by rage, so I HARDLY think he uses his brain in the heat of battle, and most of his fights in the series demonstrate this (save maybe his first fight with Gokou).

Gohan, smart kid, I love him, but I don't think I'd say he fought with his brain either. He used his brain to find other ways BESIDES needing to fight. When he was fighting seriously, it was through motivation and his hidden powers, and he was certainly not in control or even super rational during those times.

Trunks? Well for Mirai, perhaps, but similarly to Gohan, he tried to avoid fighting or at least applying 'he who fights and runs away shall live to fight another day' in many cases, which compared to some of the other Z Senshi's dumbass tactics is a VERY smart choice. I'd say it's borderline for him as well, because most of his key fights didn't focus on him using his brain in the battle (I'd say it could go both ways for when he fought Cell...though admittedly this is the only arc of the series which I've not seen more than ONCE, in the Manga), but rather being caught up in other motives at the time. Not to say he couldn't fight using his brain, knowing him I'm sure he could, I just can't cite any examples where I truly think he did, since most everything on his mind was "ZOMG REVENGE X_X". In the case of Chibi Trunks? I'd say that battle would be more than enough evidence for a YES on his part, even if he likewise didn't really HAVE any battles of his own in the series.

Goten? *laugh* Please, Chibi Goten and Trunks really only had ONE BATTLE in the entire series where it focused on their individual talents, and that was against one another. Even if there WERE more evidence than that, anyways, it'd an obvious NO.

Kuririn? Assuming this discussion is DBZ-oriented, I'd be apt to say no, because he fit the Z Senshi pattern of 'I fight because it's my duty!!' type thing in the early series, used his brain like Trunks to avoid battles when necessary (like saving Gohan's ass many times in the Freeza Saga), and then didn't really fight period by the Cell Saga. But if we look at DB? Sure. His fight with Ma Junior is the best example of that.

(If we're allowed to discuss original DB more I'd like to bring up the subject of Tenshinhan as well >.>)

The only one that you could actually say ALWAYS used his brain in battle is obviously Piccolo. You can't even really question that. I don't care how much of Bulma's intellect Trunks got, because when it comes down to it Piccolo is really the only intelligent fighter-character in the entire series. There's not a single fight of his where he didn't act without a plan (except spontaneously diving in front of Gohan to save his life against Nappa ), and the majority of the time he managed to find success in his plans. Even by the Buu Saga, when his own fighting days were kinda over, he was still using his head to lead other fighters to victory...just, 'other fighters' = GOTENKS, and...well that didn't exactly work out too well for him ^^;

So yeah, Piccolo is by far the owner of this discussion.

And Vegeta fails and fails hard.

Cell-"if its ok with u I'm gunna go gets perfect now plzkthxbai."
Vegeta-"ZOMG liek totally shure ill let u do that cuz then our fight will be liek TOTALLY AWESOME FOR REALZ!!!!!!"

Need I say more? -_-

[Hao_Kaiser]

This is kinda obvious, isn't it?

Piccolo is easily the smartest fighter in the entire series (Hence Buu even bothering to absorb him, rather than just flat out killing him... The power boost probably wasn't really too large...), while Goku is borderline retarded (Hence him saving Mr. Satan and Dende instead of... You know, people who would've been logically useful against Kid Buu...).

Aren't those like... two of their defining character traits?

[Li'l Lemmy]

Eehhh? I did WHAT now? Um, stupid, of all the things I threaten and blackmail you to coerce you into doing, 'swaying you into accepting my choice' was not one of them. o.o

Do you not remember the corresponding phone conversation? Ah, wait -- silly me. Of course. You don't remember anything unless it's at least five years ago and brought on by something completely unrelated.

(If we're allowed to discuss original DB more I'd like to bring up the subject of Tenshinhan as well >.>)

I didn't really make that clear when I established the thread, did I? Yeah, throw in anybody from any series-- it works out fine, and Tenshinhan's just too cool to leave out IMHO.

And Vegeta fails and fails hard.

Cell-"if its ok with u I'm gunna go gets perfect now plzkthxbai."
Vegeta-"ZOMG liek totally shure ill let u do that cuz then our fight will be liek TOTALLY AWESOME FOR REALZ!!!!!!"

Aside from the fact that that's hilarious, I'm not sure I agree completely. He does FAIL in that area absolutely and 100%, but only as the fighter who makes the least use of his brain out of all of them. He's actually a pretty good tactician when he has a moment to drop his pride, his arrogance, his cocky attitude, his Saiyajin instinct . . .

A-heh. Well . . . then again, how often is THAT?


~Da Lemmy

[mAcChaos]

Piccolo is easily the smartest fighter in the entire series (Hence Buu even bothering to absorb him, rather than just flat out killing him... The power boost probably wasn't really too large...), while Goku is borderline retarded (Hence him saving Mr. Satan and Dende instead of... You know, people who would've been logically useful against Kid Buu...).

He saved Dende because of the Dragon Balls.

[Iyouboushi]

All of the characters have their moments of brilliance and their moments of "what were they thinking?" stupidity.

Gokuu, I feel, isn't as dumb as people make him out to be. He may lack some common sense, but when it comes to fighting he's pretty smart. He was smart enough to realize that no one but Gohan was strong enough to beat Cell, for example.

Vejita, same way. Normally he's blinded by rage and jealousy, but there's moments of brilliance too. He did come up with the idea for Gokuu to use the Genki Dama to beat Chibi Buu. That was pretty smart. I don't think even Gokuu would have come up with that on his own. And it was ultimately the best technique to use.


As for the dumbest character.. Mr. Satan. Just look at every major fight he's been in. His only saving grace is that he's good at spin and acting.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Piccolo is easily the smartest fighter in the entire series (Hence Buu even bothering to absorb him, rather than just flat out killing him... The power boost probably wasn't really too large...),

True. Piccolo was plainly recognized for his brains in that instance and wasn't worth jack shit as an absorption ohterwise-- hence the extreme pinch Buu found himself in when Gotenks' fusion wore off.

while Goku is borderline retarded (Hence him saving Mr. Satan and Dende instead of... You know, people who would've been logically useful against Kid Buu...).

I don't know if that was as much about him being retarded as it was his own instinct to save a life. Satan and Dende were there, they were helpless, and it was instinctual-- Vegeta might be able to differentiate and say "Screw those guys" when he makes his choice to save the actual warriors, but I'm not sure that Goku is capable of doing that, or at least not quickly.

He saved Dende because of the Dragon Balls.

Are you sure? If he mentioned that the Dragonballs were his reason specifically, then you've got me there-- I honestly can't remember, and I'm too lazy right now to go searching the appropriate manga volume/DVD episode to verify.

But if he didn't say so, then I think think my theory to that still applies. If Satan and Dende had not been in the way, he would have snagged Piccolo and the boys and then not had time to collect the others. Since they were, it worked the other way around. I don't think it had anything to do with "Save the Dragonballs!!" or that had he saved the boys instead it was because they would have had value against Buu-- it was lives, it was first-come-first-serve and he could only save so many.

Like I said, I don't think Goku is capable of differentiating in that kind of circumstance.

Gokuu, I feel, isn't as dumb as people make him out to be. He may lack some common sense, but when it comes to fighting he's pretty smart. He was smart enough to realize that no one but Gohan was strong enough to beat Cell, for example.

That's true, but things like that only work so far outside of actual battle. Goku isn't retarded, but clearly he doesn't have the same thought processes as Piccolo or even Vegeta. He fights in the moment and typically acts based on what that moment gives him, whereas the other two are always thinking one or two steps ahead.

However, that's not to say that you're not right about people making Goku out to be too retarded. They do that for the same reason that a lot of people assume Goten is dumb, which pisses me off-- it's not about being flat-out stupid, which neither are; they're just more dense, thick or slow than most.

Vejita, same way. Normally he's blinded by rage and jealousy, but there's moments of brilliance too. He did come up with the idea for Gokuu to use the Genki Dama to beat Chibi Buu. That was pretty smart. I don't think even Gokuu would have come up with that on his own. And it was ultimately the best technique to use.

That's agreed by me 100%. It's one of the moments to which I specifically referred in my earlier reply, where he drops everything "Vegeta" about him and shows that he's actually a pretty good tactician when his mind is clear.


~Da Lemmy

[nwoo_2002]

Like a few people have been saying, I would choose Goku as the smartest fighter. Not at first though, the enemies in Dragon Ball were not overly powerful but were able to play on Goku's innocence. Even in the fight with Raditz he stupidly let go of his tail, which as things turned out resulted in his death. By the time we get to the Cell Games, he realises that there are some younger fighters who need to come forward once he has gone ala Gohan. We see him do it again in the Buu saga when trying to teach Goten and Trunks the fusion technique. So by the time we get to Uub, he has enough fighting experience to acknowledge a potential fighter. You can't have that without having a great experience in fighting. So personally I feel that Goku's progression from country hick to over looker of future 'talent' leads me to think he is the smartest fighter.

For dumbest, tough one, but I would got with Vegeta. Simply because in each saga his actions led to so many of the hardships they faced. Ignoring the Saiyan-jin saga he encouraged Freeza to transform, he allowed the Android's to be activated, he allowed Cell to reach perfection and he allowed himself to be possessed which in turn released Buu. I know i'm being picky but as a fighter you never allow your enemy get in a better position than you. You can argue Goku's actiosn lead to hardships but he always became an integral part of the fight. Vegeta just slunk away.

Overall I'm being biased as Goku is my clear favourite, while Vegeta just annoys me.

[Sun_Wukong]

Piccolo isnt always the smartest fighter. When he's first introduced he's only fighting to avenge his father's death. Even up untill the Radditz fight his only goal is to kill Goku.

I dont think any of the characters use their brains in battle. Even Gohan, who's supposed to be some kindve scholar isnt a strateigic fighter. Everyone has their own personal goals. Goku's just happens to be getting his friends out of harms way first.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Even Gohan, who's supposed to be some kindve scholar isnt a strateigic fighter. Everyone has their own personal goals. Goku's just happens to be getting his friends out of harms way first.

Speaking for Gohan, I think it's a matter of that he never learned to sucessfully combine those two worlds to become much of a strategic fighter. When he wasn't fighting, he was studying, and when he wasn't studying it was usually because it became necessary to fight-- his focus was always drained into one area or the other, whereas with someone like Piccolo who studies and meditates on becoming a good fighter (or to a lesser extent Vegeta, for whom fighting was his chosen "career") the two will naturally blemd to make him capably smart as a warrior.

There are examples of Gohan as an intelligent fighter, though. What he did to lure Broly into the lava in Movie 10 may have been born out of desperation, but it still struck me as pretty damn smart.


~Da Lemmy

[Pieter]

Goku is extremely naive and silly normally, but the great thing about him is that contraty to this he's an extremely smart fighter. His weakness is obviously that he's way too friendly towards opponents, but that's goku for ya.

Piccolo is probably the smartest, when did he ever make a mistake? Maybe at the 23d Tenkaichi Budokai when he was defeated by Goku, because he didn't expect Goku to have mastered Bukujutsu.

Another really smart fighter was Jackie Chun (Roshi). He never lost a fight and mastered a huge amount of techniques.

Pikkon was pretty smart too. He tries to finish his opponents off fast and if it wasn't for Goku's Instant Transmission he would have been champion again.

Vegeta would be a smart fighter if he didn't underestimate his opponents so often.

Dumbest fighter? "Nappa, DON'T TOUCH IT!"

[Rocketman]

Smartest fighter: Vegetto. Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta are the fighting geniuses of the series, so fusing two of those obviously makes the best overall.

Dumbest: Gohan. "lol i charge rekkum headon! that sur to werk!"

[KinoFourpaws]

Well, for the moment I mostly just want to refute the idea that "Goku=stupid/retarded when fighting". I mean, sure, yeah, he did his share of stupid stuff in the heat of battle (letting Freeza power up to full instead of just killing him before he got the chance, maybe?), but he's demonstrated plenty of times that he's pretty battle-smart.

Here's an example: end of Dragonball, during the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai. He seriously owned at that tournament, and not just because he was "UB3R 5TR0NG L0L". In his fight with Tenshinhan, he hid the fact that he wasn't fighting him at first with his best; he let Tenshinhan get cocky thinking he hadn't gotten any faster in three years of training. Then he took off his weights. Additionally, when Tenshinhan used his 12 Eyes move in the fight, it took but one exchange with the technique before Goku figured out and exploited both its weaknesses.

As for Piccolo in the same tournament? For one thing, he took advantage of Piccolo's Kyodaika (his ability to increase in size) to rescue Kami from containment. (And you can't tell me that it wasn't a stupid move on Piccolo's part when he fell for that, even if he is one of the most intelligent fighters throughout the series.) And for another? He kept the fact that he could use Bukujutsu a secret until the very end. Caught Piccolo totally by surprise! You can't say there wasn't some strategy involved in that decision.

I kinda feel that his power was increasingly emphasized over his tactical skills in his fights throughout DBZ, unfortunately, but there are still a few instances where we can see him fighting smart. He was the one who thought to grab Raditz's tail in the first place (and he knew he couldn't try that again once he'd let it go the first time); he used the Taiyoken on Vejita in Oozaru form before relocating farther off to use the Genki-dama (which, although not a bad move in and of itself, didn't work out like he'd hoped--and he probably could have done something else in conjunction with the Taiyoken that would have worked, like cut off his tail, but I'll leave that part open for discussion, I guess); he used ki balls as decoys when fighting against Freeza from underwater (though my knowledge of that particular fight is a little sketchy now; if anyone could check that part of the manga/anime for it since I can't at the moment it would be greatly appreciated); he knew better than to fight Cell when he rescued Tenshinhan from him before he'd gotten a chance to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, and he recognized Gohan as the only person capable of beating Cell in the Cell Games (though this was mentioned earlier already); and in his fight against Pikkon (I know this is filler; just bear with me, okay?) he pinpoints a weakness in Pikkon's Thunder Flash (or whatever it's called) attack and uses it to knock him down. The whole Buu arc is arguably where he fights the least strategically, though you do see him using his brain during his fight with Yakon ("Gee, I wonder how much light this guy can eat at one time?") and in his reluctance to power up to SSJ3 during the fight with Majin Vejita, since he knew it'd eat away at the time he had left to spend on Earth. And those are just the instances that I can recall now, after several years of not seeing it on TV and even with not actually seeing the whole series.

I'm not going to go into GT, since that's the DB series of which my knowledge is weakest (I've only seen, what, less than a dozen of the episodes? Not even ten?), but even without it, there's plenty of evidence to support the fact that Goku's a way smarter fighter than most people will give him credit for. He's very good at adapting to most given situations in a fight, and that's not just something to be attributed to his fighting instincts as a Saiyan. I mean, he's a martial artist, too. Most good martial artists have to have a good foundation in being able to fight strategically.

Sorry for the rambling; you get my point, though, right?

EDIT: WTF, censor. @__@;

[Kendamu]

Dumbest fighter? "Nappa, DON'T TOUCH IT!"

This is definately something I wouldn't have thought of. I was busy thinking of the main characters who stayed with us throughout most of the series.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I always saw Goku and Vejita as two brilliant fighters with opposing weaknesses.

Goku is naive, that's the endearing part of the character. Even Freeza, who had killed his best friend and done unforgivable things by any stretch was given a pass by Goku (until Freeza tried, yet again, to kill him). Goku doesn't want to kill anyone by default, he just wants to prove he is stronger.

Vejita is arrogant and wants to kill anyone and everyone to prove he is, in an ultimate fashion, the best. He wants 17 & 18 to be awakened so he can decimate them and prove he is the strongest, and he wants Cell to achieve his Kanzentai form to prove the same.

The fact that Goku doesn't want to kill anyone (unless absolutely necessary) and Vejita wants to kill everyone dull their otherwise razor-sharp mental capabilities while in battle. Even Piccolo acknowledges Vejita's intelligence when Vejita bluffs his way out of fighting No. 20.

Just my $0.02.

-Corey

[Li'l Lemmy]

Vejita is arrogant and wants to kill anyone and everyone to prove he is, in an ultimate fashion, the best. He wants 17 & 18 to be awakened so he can decimate them and prove he is the strongest, and he wants Cell to achieve his Kanzentai form to prove the same.

Vegeta's truest weakness is in making haughty mistakes such as those, though I see it as possibly the only one. Aside from that need to prove himself and show off his pride (which invariably leads to those bad decisions), he could rival anyone in the field in terms of calculated planning-- and over many, he would have the outright advantage.

I surmise that a match between Vegeta and anyone else (even a somewhat stronger opponent) is already heavily in Vegeta's favor if he can focus on the battle itself and not what it means to him, because he A) is a tactician by nature, B) can often turn a disadvantage into an advantage where it applies and C) does what it takes to win and nothing less.

However, his pride still puts him at a serious mental handicap in relation to some of the other characters.


~Da Lemmy

[mAcChaos]

I think all of the fighters are intelligent -- at fighting. There's different kinds of intelligence; someone can be a terrible rocket scientist but a great boxer, etc. You have to know the "ins and outs" of your game.

That said, Cell is the most intelligent. He outsmarted everyone multiple times.

Buu was pretty smart, too; Goku commended him as a genius during their fight, after all.

Pretty much all the Z characters are brilliant. They're the kings of the hill, after all.

Dumbest: Gohan. "lol i charge rekkum headon! that sur to werk!"

He was five.

Vegeta's skills shined the most on Namek when he was maneuvering between Freeza's men to get the Dragonballs.

[Tyro]

He kept the fact that he could use Bukujutsu a secret until the very end. Caught Piccolo totally by surprise! You can't say there wasn't some strategy involved in that decision.

I don't believe Goku learned Bukujutsu while training with Kami-sama. He Kamehameha'd his way around the arena too much to be saving energy during the fight. I always assumed he learned it right before he beat Piccolo, because he had to, or he'd die.

[Pieter]

I think all of the fighters are intelligent -- at fighting. There's different kinds of intelligence; someone can be a terrible rocket scientist but a great boxer, etc. You have to know the "ins and outs" of your game.

Let's face it, he's the smartest fighter of all

[Iyouboushi]

This thread gave me an idea for Meri's top 5 for the podcast. The Top 5 Moments of Mercy (shown by Gokuu or anyone else, I suppose).

Anyway, I don't necessarily think Cell is all that smart. Half the time he just got lucky. And he had his dumb moments too, like when he was just screaming at the top of his lungs for 18 to come out. As if she'd just willingly reveal herself if he started screaming. And even when he was losing against Gohan he wasn't smart enough to say "I can't win" and step back/figure something out. Instead he just kept going until 18 got knocked out of him and he had to resort to self-destruct.

Maybe this topic should be split into the smartest heroes vs the smartest villains.

Dr. Gero/20 seemed pretty smart. He knew when to retreat and that he had to absorb more energy. Ultimately, though, he didn't really plan for his two androids to take him out.