Could the Cyborgs really be stronger than Freeza?

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:05 pm

I assumed that even android 19 was stronger than Freeza. Not by much though, as he was easily stomped out by SSJ vegeta. But Goku, with the Illness was having trouble, and his power dropped to about where he was during the Freeza fight, and then lower.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:51 pm

omegacwa wrote:I assumed that even android 19 was stronger than Freeza. Not by much though, as he was easily stomped out by SSJ vegeta. But Goku, with the Illness was having trouble, and his power dropped to about where he was during the Freeza fight, and then lower.

I doubt that. Goku lost his SSJ state and couldn't even fire a kamehameha.

Prince Vegeta · Post by **Prince Vegeta** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:02 pm

Pieter wrote:
omegacwa wrote:I assumed that even android 19 was stronger than Freeza. Not by much though, as he was easily stomped out by SSJ vegeta. But Goku, with the Illness was having trouble, and his power dropped to about where he was during the Freeza fight, and then lower.
I doubt that. Goku lost his SSJ state and couldn't even fire a kamehameha.

What if #19 absorbed his energy.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:06 pm

Prince Vegeta wrote:
Pieter wrote:
omegacwa wrote:I assumed that even android 19 was stronger than Freeza. Not by much though, as he was easily stomped out by SSJ vegeta. But Goku, with the Illness was having trouble, and his power dropped to about where he was during the Freeza fight, and then lower.
I doubt that. Goku lost his SSJ state and couldn't even fire a kamehameha.
What if #19 absorbed his energy.

Goku's? #19 had only absorbed one kamehameha before Goku went back to base.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:19 pm

Goku was actually going to fire off another Kamehameha after #19 absorbed his first one and had beaten him around a little, but Piccolo stopped him before he could launch it.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:26 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Pieter wrote: In Trunks timeline they probably weren't stronger than Freeza, I remember Trunks saying that they were a lot weaker. That timeline didn't have any super-saiyans so that makes sense.[/i]
Um, yeah, it did. Gohan and Trunks were both Super Saiyans, but got their heinies handed to them on a regular basis, although later Trunks said he could last pretty long and hold his own against them. But the normal timeline's 17 and 18 were a lot stronger.

I still take issue with that. Trunks never found out that they were holding back half of their power against Gohan. There's nothing to say they weren't doing the same with him. It's become my belief that 17 and 18 were the same strength in both time-lines, just the ones in the past weren't holding back any of their power.

As for 19 and 20's power... I'd figure them around the power of a fully powered-up Freeza, maybe a little less. They obviously couldn't have been *that* much stronger, though. Piccolo surpassed them with only three years of training.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:14 pm

Ah, you're right. They probably were holding back against him.

P.S. - This was my first attempt at posting on my new PSP

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:31 pm

Xyex wrote:I still take issue with that. Trunks never found out that they were holding back half of their power against Gohan. There's nothing to say they weren't doing the same with him. It's become my belief that 17 and 18 were the same strength in both time-lines, just the ones in the past weren't holding back any of their power.

I just alway thought of it as Gero found a way to lower their power somehow before they finally did him in.

Another question that I've always had rattling around in my head was if the Z-fighters every fault 19 and 20. Or did they only scuffle with 17 and 18. Trunks gives them the co-ordinates where they find 19 and 20.

Friezafan120 · Post by **Friezafan120** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:57 pm

Androids 19 and 20 couldn't be as strong as Freeza; Piccolo surpassed them both in only three years, and Freeza was at least 12 times more powerful than Piccolo was back on Namek.

Goku must have been holding back A LOT as he fought 19 before the virus affected him. As for Vegeta, we don't know how powerful he was when he turned SSJ, but I doubt he was as powerful as Goku was when Goku transformed, but that is open to debate; Vegeta being a Saiyan, it is a lot more plasusible for him increase in strength extremely rapidly in comparrison to Piccolo.

I'd have to say 19 and 20 where considerable weaker than Freeza, since Piccolo, who could no way increase his strength 12 fold in 3 years, surpassed them both.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:05 pm

Friezafan120 wrote:Androids 19 and 20 couldn't be as strong as Freeza; Piccolo surpassed them both in only three years, and Freeza was at least 12 times more powerful than Piccolo was back on Namek.

Goku must have been holding back A LOT as he fought 19 before the virus affected him. As for Vegeta, we don't know how powerful he was when he turned SSJ, but I doubt he was as powerful as Goku was when Goku transformed, but that is open to debate; Vegeta being a Saiyan, it is a lot more plasusible for him increase in strength extremely rapidly in comparrison to Piccolo.

I'd have to say 19 and 20 where considerable weaker than Freeza, since Piccolo, who could no way increase his strength 12 fold in 3 years, surpassed them both.

The heart virus had already began taking effect on Goku before Goku even began to fight with #19. Tenshinhan noticed that Goku was already winded and sweating from the flight over to where they would fight. Later, Piccolo and Gohan comment on how his Super Saiya-jin state took a big hit in power, as well. As for Vegeta, he states he's more powerful than Goku, and Piccolo hints at the fact that he might be, as well as Tenshinhan. I wouldn't say it'd be out there at all for Vegeta to be stronger.

Prince Vegeta · Post by **Prince Vegeta** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:07 am

Pieter wrote:
Prince Vegeta wrote:
Pieter wrote: I doubt that. Goku lost his SSJ state and couldn't even fire a kamehameha.
What if #19 absorbed his energy.
Goku's? #19 had only absorbed one kamehameha before Goku went back to base.

No,Freezer's.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:33 am

Prince Vegeta wrote:
Pieter wrote:
Prince Vegeta wrote: What if #19 absorbed his energy.
Goku's? #19 had only absorbed one kamehameha before Goku went back to base.
No,Freezer's.

Freeza would realize he can't use Ki attacks and won't use them unless #19 can't absorb them. #19 can't use Ki attacks either, right?

This thread could better be about #16, he would kick Freeza's ass, yet was fully robot.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:54 pm

The heart virus had already began taking effect on Goku before Goku even began to fight with #19. Tenshinhan noticed that Goku was already winded and sweating from the flight over to where they would fight.

However, the same Tenshinhan was surprised by Goku's power just after he turned into a SSJ, and he had seen the other two SSJs 3 years later. That seems to support the theory that sick SSJ Goku was still stronger, at least, initially, than SSJ Goku from 3 years before. Piccolo and Gohan knew that he could be stronger because they had trained with him during those three years.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:29 pm

Neon Z wrote:However, the same Tenshinhan was surprised by Goku's power just after he turned into a SSJ, and he had seen the other two SSJs 3 years later. That seems to support the theory that sick SSJ Goku was still stronger, at least, initially, than SSJ Goku from 3 years before. Piccolo and Gohan knew that he could be stronger because they had trained with him during those three years.

I didn't say he wasn't stronger. I said the virus was already there in the beginning of the fight, and not just now beginning to take effect as Goku fought #19.

After Goku faded from his SSj state, Vegeta stated, "You noticed the anomaly in your body-- but you turned into a Super Saiya-jin anyway! You fool! You knew it would only put more strain on your heart!" I believe Goku knew the heart virus was there, but it wouldn't effect him as much as it did. After all, he planned to end the battle quickly by going all out from the beginning against #19. As stated by Piccolo.

Kanzenshuu

Could the Cyborgs really be stronger than Freeza?

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