Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Characters keep passing each other left and right, it's becoming harder to remember where things stand but I do think that at the moment it goes

Vegeta > Trunks > Black > Goku > Zamasu

How many times has Black powered up now? There was the one from fighting Goku in the present, one from Vegeta pummeling him as SSJB, one from Goku pummeling him as SSJB....I feel like I'm forgetting one.

If he's upgraded to a scythe in the next episode he's probably powered up again from Vegeta's beatdown.

[HeroR]

I have no problem following the power levels in the anime. Most of the complaints seems to center around people not liking how powerful some characters are. The only oddball is Trunks who seems to be as strong as the plot demands at times.

[ekrolo2]

Even with it's problems the anime is worth watching, for example the Kaioken while nonsensical was pretty awesome. That's what the writers go for, awe moments instead of consistency.
You just have to conditioned yourself to disregard such developments. It gets easier with time.

I really, really don't want to do this, specifically, because the people who try to convince themselves Super is perfectly fine and amazing and make up any stupid excuse or explanation to prove that annoy me. I'm not saying you're one of those guys but I expect some bare minimum of quality present in the writing. At least some inspired ideas to show someone's got a clue in the creative process like in GT.

[zamasu121]

Even with it's problems the anime is worth watching, for example the Kaioken while nonsensical was pretty awesome. That's what the writers go for, awe moments instead of consistency.
You just have to conditioned yourself to disregard such developments. It gets easier with time.

I really, really don't want to do this, specifically, because the people who try to convince themselves Super is perfectly fine and amazing and make up any stupid excuse or explanation to prove that annoy me. I'm not saying you're one of those guys but I expect some bare minimum of quality present in the writing. At least some inspired ideas to show someone's got a clue in the creative process like in GT.

you can't be serious?

[ekrolo2]

you can't be serious?

GT fucked up almost everything it did in one way or another, but conceptually it had a lot of good ideas that you'd be hard pressed to just flat out ignore, creating a mediocre product with good ideas but barely ever managing to reach average execution. But at least I can see a genuine spark of creativity under that clutter that I can honestly appreciate and respect, especially in light of Super.

Super has none of that spark if you ask me, Toriyama clearly doesn't give a fig if a barely reskinned alternate universe is his idea of an opponent for a multiverse tournament (and make no mistake, the twin universes concept is fucking there so he can be lazy with a good chunk of the U6 people) and bringing back Trunks for another arc shits on the ending he earned in Z and just helps to make the Black arc convoluted. Zamasu didn't need to be a multiverse + time travel enemy, he easily could have existed as just a multiversal threat and you wouldn't really lose anything by going that route.

[LightBing]

Even with it's problems the anime is worth watching, for example the Kaioken while nonsensical was pretty awesome. That's what the writers go for, awe moments instead of consistency.
You just have to conditioned yourself to disregard such developments. It gets easier with time.

I really, really don't want to do this, specifically, because the people who try to convince themselves Super is perfectly fine and amazing and make up any stupid excuse or explanation to prove that annoy me. I'm not saying you're one of those guys but I expect some bare minimum of quality present in the writing. At least some inspired ideas to show someone's got a clue in the creative process like in GT.

Super has a lot of problems, I'm not doublethinking myself. My suggestion is about separating the good from bad as not to spoil the whole meal.
If we dwell on the negative while the good things are happening, we're bound to miss them and the whole picture gets grimmer. Super occasionally delivers great action sequences or/and moments, which usually come from bad writing, sure. It's still fun.
So enjoy those moments, watching the screen empty-headed with drool coming out of the corner of your mouth and clap like a happy seal. After it ends, you can turn your brain back on and say "well that was bloody ridiculous, even for Dragon Ball!".

Since we're in power level thread, Super's anime is a bloody mess in that regard. While ridiculous power ups are Dragon Balls trademark, they almost always get an explanation. Either magic water which brings out your potential, training three days with a talking cat, sitting for half a day while a God brings out your potential, get really angry and awaken the legendary transformation of your race, etc...
All whilst getting statements which allows us to paint a picture.
Super does this very little and doesn't concern itself with consistency. It's literally, as strong as the plot needs them to be.

[ekrolo2]

Since we're in power level thread, Super's anime is a bloody mess in that regard. While ridiculous power ups are Dragon Balls trademark, they almost always get an explanation. Either magic water which brings out your potential, training three days with a talking cat, sitting for half a day while a God brings out your potential, get really angry and awaken the legendary transformation of your race, etc...
All whilst getting statements which allows us to paint a picture.
Super does this very little and doesn't concern itself with consistency. It's literally, as strong as the plot needs them to be.

All Super needed to do was make some hierarchy and stick to it. Sure, Toriyama's system of "If one guy is just a smidge stronger than you, your ass is grass!" brings its own issues but Toei's "you're as strong as we need you to be" makes any gains pretty meaningless. Why should we care that Goku & Vegeta trained in Whis' ROSAT for months on end when they'll just randomly write them as taking on an opponent that was stomping them with no explanation.

[Marlowe89]

If Base Goku can destroy a ball of energy that Super Saiyan Goku struggled with and Super Saiyan Goku at full power is stronger than Super Saiyan God then when Base Goku is at full power he should be stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Both of them struggled with the ball. Goku didn't attempt to punch the ball until he was already in base, mustering up what little strength he had left. Super Saiyan was never specifically said to be stronger than Super Saiyan God.

There has NEVER been anything in the way of dialogue to suggest that base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God's full power. It's already been said in the anime that Super Saiyan makes base Goku "dozens of times" stronger anyway, so your flawed interpretation wouldn't match up with what we were specifically shown no matter how you slice it.

And again you're assuming that his true power is superior and you don't know that. For all you know they might have still been able to see them fight after he'd grown stronger in space. What we know for a fact is that the Base Goku who fought Frieza was at least stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku at some point. He obviously doesn't need God Ki to get into that level of power in base.

I didn't assume anything there, I just pointed out that your example doesn't actually prove anything in regards to 100% Super Saiyan God.

I never disagreed with base Goku having at least some portion of Super Saiyan God's strength post-absorption. After all, that's all we know for a fact anyway. We don't know if his base was just as powerful as Super Saiyan God at full power because that was never said or demonstrated in any capacity, and he was in Super Saiyan when Beerus made the comment about him not losing any power.

He had reached a level higher than he'd obtained back when he fought Beerus though. Base Goku wasn't at a level higher than back then, he's at the same level. Super Saiyan Blue is what's on another level.

They were referring to his POWER level, as Krillin's statement about Goku never being satisfied with his strength makes clear.

Also all King Kai said was "He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus' planet?". He didn't say he'd reached that level (unless that was said in a different episode).

The translation I read said he did. Either way, I don't know what else he could be referring to - he likely didn't just mean God ki because he probably would have mentioned God ki if that were the case.

That said the power he displayed was still all part of the Super Saiyan God power within him. Beerus said that that power had merged and become a part of him.

Which doesn't confirm that he can use that power's full strength in base. He was never shown to be able to do so nor was that ever stated.

It was also never specifically said that Goku in Super Saiyan surpassed Super Saiyan God. The narrator DID state, however, that Super Saiyan Blue surpassed even it.

It makes no sense to say that his regular Super Saiyan forms are weaker than Super Saiyan God if we shown and told otherwise. As a Super Saiyan he was able to defeat Zamasu a being who is shown to be strong enough to go toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue. Yes that was Present Zamasu but Future Zamasu isn't going to be that much stronger.

Future Zamasu IS that much stronger than present Zamasu. Goku said he had the potential to be as powerful as Beerus, and Zamasu had literally years upon years to grow stronger between timeframes. The fact that future Zamasu is capable of fighting on par with a boosted Super Saiyan Blue Goku while present Zamasu couldn't even defeat Super Saiyan 2 Goku confirms that the gap in their strength is significant. Even Beerus said that present Zamasu was child's play compared to Goku.

My point stands. It makes no sense for the yellow Super Saiyan form to be the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God because that's the definition of Blue. Likewise it makes no sense for the narrator to say that Super Saiyan Blue surpasses EVEN Super Saiyan God if it was already surpassed by weaker forms.

And you're assuming that he lost the power of Super Saiyan God after fighting Beerus though nothing ever suggested that. You dismiss them withstanding attacks from Beerus as a gag even though what was said was in no way a gag.

Base Goku was shown to be able to fight on par with Beerus in Monaka's costume and when Vegeta said he had snapped and Whis said he was letting off steam and getting into it.

No, I said it was possible that he lost Super Saiyan God's power, I never took that idea for granted unlike you taking it for granted that he can use ALL of its power in base which was never implied. Whether I dismiss the """unrestrained""" attacks scene as a gag is irrelevant because we still don't know if Beerus was actually using 100% of his power there. It was never stated, it's just something you assumed because of how you personally interpreted the semantics of the whole statement and the word "unrestrained".

The episode with Beerus being in Monaka's costume proves absolutely nothing. We already know that he was hindered by the costume regardless of how serious he was during the fight, we know that Goku never transformed, and we know that the earthlings could see them in battle.

It was also before they were thrown into Whis' staff. If they'd already obtained Super Saiyan Blue then Vegeta shouldn't really be so surprised by the God Ki and the pressure of the place nor should Whis think they weren't ready for it. If anything they would have learned Super Saiyan Blue when they were in the staff which they were sent into to get stronger in the first place, it'd be a pointless plot device otherwise wouldn't it?

Whether it was before the staff (and indeed, whether they'd already obtained Super Saiyan Blue at all) is irrelevant because of what Episode 20 established. We know that the blue ki is God ki because it was said to be on multiple occasions, we know that God ki is stronger because it was said to be, and we know that base Goku/Vegeta were using that God ki for the first time in their sparring match, all of which is consistent with them observing themselves in amazement after having triggered that God ki. All of this is completely indisputable.

[LightBing]

Since we're in power level thread, Super's anime is a bloody mess in that regard. While ridiculous power ups are Dragon Balls trademark, they almost always get an explanation. Either magic water which brings out your potential, training three days with a talking cat, sitting for half a day while a God brings out your potential, get really angry and awaken the legendary transformation of your race, etc...
All whilst getting statements which allows us to paint a picture.
Super does this very little and doesn't concern itself with consistency. It's literally, as strong as the plot needs them to be.

All Super needed to do was make some hierarchy and stick to it. Sure, Toriyama's system of "If one guy is just a smidge stronger than you, your ass is grass!" brings its own issues but Toei's "you're as strong as we need you to be" makes any gains pretty meaningless. Why should we care that Goku & Vegeta trained in Whis' ROSAT for months on end when they'll just randomly write them as taking on an opponent that was stomping them with no explanation.

Pretty much, I'm not even sure how strong Future Zamasu is, he doesn't have Black's ability and was supposed to be much weaker x years ago. So did he train to the point he can fight Gods, what's the deal?
Or how much stronger Black was than Goku and Vegeta initially. If this was Dragon Ball, Mr. Toriyama would've delivered us a line like "Black is even greater than Hit", or something of that sort to scale everyone.
I honestly have no idea about how strong anyone is, besides stronger than SSJG and weaker than Beerus. But apparently Beerus is a pathological liar, so who the hell knows anything at all!
I think this is all still part of Vegeta's nightmare while he was trying to become a SSJ Saiyan.

[buutenks]

Well, you can easily make a list of who is stronger than who. Tho i do agree that super power scaling is a mess. The manga is way better in that regard.

Anime, one episode Trunks gets owned by ssj blue, a few ep later, he goes toe to toe with an opponent who was going toe to toe with a ssj blue. Tho i guess, u can say he got a rage boost...

But anyways, however messy it is, you simply have to live with it. Not much u can do about it.

As for base Goku/Vegeta. They cannot be ssg level, since copy Vegeta didnt finger flick ssj3 Gotenks. And neither r any ssj forms above ssg.

[Doctor.]

How strong would a Blue Gotenks be?

[buutenks]

How strong would a Blue Gotenks be?

Think that is impossible to say. But i am guessing stronger than Goku or Vegeta, by default.

[Marlowe89]

Two base theory confirmed?

We don't know if Goku and Vegeta regularly switch between two bases in combat, but yes, it was technically confirmed ever since Episode 20.

Whether certain people want to admit it was confirmed is another matter entirely.

[emperior]

I once again updated my Power Levels list. This is a full revamp, now it should be a lot more consistent and it makes A LOT more sense than my old list. Please check it out and let me know if you find some error or some levels you don't agree with.

BoG Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 100
SSJ - 5,000
SSJ2 - 10,000
SSJ3 - 20,000
SSG - 450,000

Vegeta
Base - 96
SSJ - 4,800
SSJ2 - 9,600
SSJ2 Enraged - 64,000

Beerus
Unseen True Power - 10,000,000

(I’m going to assume Beerus used 10% of his true power and then scaled his power)

Full Power - 1,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 5% - 50,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 100,000
vs God Goku, at 50% - 500,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000[/spoiler]

RoF Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 150
Base with God Ki - 10,000
SSB - 500,000

Vegeta
Base - 150
Base with God Ki - 10,000
SSB - 500,000

(Super Saiyan Blue is 50x Base with God Ki)

Freezer
1st Form - 150
4th Form - 12,000
Golden - 600,000
Exhausted - 400,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 92
SSJ - 4,600

Tagoma
Base - 10
Post-Training - 4,500
Ginyu - 3,500[/spoiler]

Universal Tournament Arc


Gods

[spoiler]Whis - 15,000,000

Beerus - 10,000,000

Vados - 15,010,000

Champa - 9,990,000[/spoiler]

U7 Fighters

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000
Base with God Ki - 15,000
SSB - 750,000
SSB + KKx2 - 1,500,000
SSB + KKx10 - 7,500,000

Vegeta

Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000
SSB - 750,000

Piccolo - 7,000

Mr Buu - 36,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6 Fighters

[spoiler]Botamo - 150

Frost
1st Form - 100
Assault Form - 500
Final Form - 8,000

Otto Magetta - 20,000

Cabba
Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000
SSJ Tired - 5,000

Hit - ???[/spoiler]


Black Arc

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 150
SSJ2 - 15,000

Black
Base Full Power - 25,000

Trunks (1st Zenkai)
Base - 200
SSJ2 - 20,000

Black (1st appearance in the Future)
Base - 15,000
Base Full Power - 25,000

Trunks (1st Fight vs Black)
Base - 100
SSJ2 - 10,000

Goku
Base - 200
SSJ2 - 20,000
SSJ3 - 40,000
Base with God Ki - 20,000
SSB - 1,000,000
SSB Wounded - 100,000

Vegeta
Base - 200
Base with God Ki - 20,000
SSB - 1,000,000

Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 220
SSJ2 - 22,000
SSJ2 Full Power - 44,000

Zamasu - 18,000

Black (1st Goku Boost)
Base - 30,000
SSR Full Power - 1,500,000

Immortal Zamasu - 36,000

Goku (1st Zenkai)
Base - 300
Base with God Ki - 30,000
SSB - 1,500,000
SSB Enraged - 2,000,000

Vegeta (1st Zenkai)
Base - 300
Base with God Ki - 30,000
SSB - 1,500,000

Trunks (2nd Zenkai)
Base - 350
SSJ2 Full Power - 70,000
Enraged Form - 2,100,000
3rd Zenkai - 2,160,000

Black (2nd Goku Boost)
SSR - 1,800,000
SSR (Boost) - 2,100,000

Vegeta (2nd Zenkai + Training)
Base - 460
Base with God Ki - 46,000
SSB - 2,300,000

Goku (2nd Zenkai)
Base - 340
Base with God Ki - 34,000
SSB - 1,700,000[/spoiler]

[ShinTenshin]

There's no way than Black is inferior to Trunks !
He is still far stronger and he think Trunks is just a toy ! Trunks use all his power with a Gallick Gun and he even lost his enraged form in the process, it's all his strength in one attack !

And the best he can do is literally NOTHING, Trunks is unable to damage Black.
Black is even totally mocking him "I might get some bruise" LOL
Trunks is completely overrated, that's insane ! Each time than Black fight a great opponent he became stronger like against Goku and probably Vegeta (preview).

Black says Goku will become stronger and himself too in EP63. And against Trunks ? NOTHING AT ALL.

[DragonHermit]

My own headcanon is that

SSJ Blue = 10x Regular SSJ (Beyond God) = Super Trunks
SSJ2 = 2x Regular SSJ (Beyond God) this is the range of Goku, Trunks in SSJ2 and Zamasu

So Zamasu and Trunks (initially) would be around 1/5th of SSJ Blue.

I would also put Base Black at 5x Regular SSJ or 50% of SS Blue. And Rose Black = 10x Base Black.

[Helios518]

My own headcanon is that

SSJ Blue = 10x Regular SSJ (Beyond God) = Super Trunks
SSJ2 = 2x Regular SSJ (Beyond God) this is the range of Goku, Trunks in SSJ2 and Zamasu

So Zamasu and Trunks (initially) would be around 1/5th of SSJ Blue.

and SSJ3?

[DragonHermit]

and SSJ3?

I would say maybe 50% of SS Blue, provided he uses God Ki. I know it retcons the whole 8x, but I don't think Toriyama or the writers really cared about that. This is all pure speculation based on feeling and feats.

[AvatarReiko]

Has the fandom come up with a name for Trunks' new form yet? Whatever it is, it's superior to his SSJ2, right?

[DragonHermit]

Has the fandom come up with a name for Trunks' new form yet? Whatever it is, it's superior to his SSJ2, right?

TV Guide said Super Trunks