"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[UltimateHammerBro]

I, in turn, suggested something similar to the already-discussed graphic: Black was a Zamasu from a timeline in which the events of the Black saga didn't happen, so there was no reason to suspect Zamasu and he could kill Gowasu easily and go on to become Black. However, this also poses a problem: how did he know about Goku, if he wouldn't have had any reason to meet or fight him?

Don´t forget that Zamasu also needs to know about the Super Dragon Balls as well. A possible explanation: Zamasu saw Goku and Vegeta etc. on GodTube while Gowasu was watching the replay of the U6/U7 tournament for the Super Dragon Balls. Goku caught his attention since he appeared to be the most powerful of the contestants. In his disbelief that mortals can be as strong as gods he asked Gowasu to arrange a sparring session with Goku or maybe even Gowasu encouraged him to spar them to learn about mortals, whatever. Or maybe Goku/Beerus/Whis were on the way to the all universe tournament of Zeno and made a stop there to pick up strong fighters since Zamasu is pretty strong by himself. There sure are some possible ways to "explain" it.
Although I personally think the writers just didn´t think it through properly and just don´t care about plotholes they create, but maybe we will see more info later.

You're right. There are ways to explain it, but I'd rather see the writers explain it themselves than having to resort to headcanon.

I think that, as you said, the writers didn't think about it too much. It seems they think they've given a perfect explanation and they're just asking us to go with it..

[Will]

There are some inconsistences on this. Firstly, in the present timeline without Trunks, even if Zamasu knew about Goku via kamitube, it's very unlikely that their fight would be exactly replicated (they show a flashback and they both are in the same events happened. Also, Zamasu says Trunks was "the reason" behind his zero mortal plan, so he had to know about Trunks messing with the timeline somehow.

I have my own theory, which is a bit more complex:



In this version, Trunks go to the present timeline to ask for help. The story goes as normal until Goku, Vegeta and Trunks go to the future and then go back. When this happens, two timelines are created (like in every time travel): one where they actually go back, and one where they didn't. The first one is the present timeline we see in Super. The other one is Black's timeline.

In Black's timeline, the following happens: He asks Zuno about the Super Dragon Balls and about Goku (which he would do anyway, so the time travel had no effect here); He learns that Goku traveled through time and that Trunks was responsible, making him even more obsessed with Goku and angry at the mortals; He kills Gowasu and continues his plan; He realizes there's no more Goku in his timeline, and is forced to go back to the past in order to change bodies; He goes to the past somehow (probably using the Super Dragon Balls); He then wishes to change bodies with Goku, and kills him and his family (since it's the past, Goku didn't know Black, and that's why he is so surprised to see somebody with his appearance); Black goes to the future timeline to get his "revenge" on Trunks. This would also explain why Black isn't as strong as Goku during their first fight (his "version" of Goku is the one which didn't have the Godly ki transformations yet).

You can't go to the past with a time ring, like Whis said.
And Black and Zamasu said all the wishes, they made with the Super DB.

I don't think there's a loop or another timeline.
For me:
Black is Present Zamasu like they said.
Present Zamasu could have first know Goku from Kibito like in the mangas, and/or Godtube, Gowasu showed to him the time ring then Present Zamasu fight against him for another reason in Goku's/Present timeline.
Then he kill Gowasu, use the time ring (to skip one year), make his wish, and kill Goku and his family.
Then he went to Trunks's timeline.

Then when Trunks arrived he altered Goku's/Present timeline and Beerus killed Present Zamasu before he could do anything.
And now Black only exist because of his time ring like Black said.

Goku:
"Didn't Beerus destroy you in the past?"
Black:
"It's all thanks to this time ring."
"Nothing that happens in the past can affect my current self."

[dbs fanboy]

I don't think there's a loop or another timeline.
For me:
Black is Present Zamasu like they said.
Present Zamasu could have first know Goku from Kibito like in the mangas, and/or Godtube, Gowasu showed to him the time ring then Present Zamasu fight against him for another reason in Goku's/Present timeline.
Then he kill Gowasu, use the time ring (to skip one year), make his wish, and kill Goku and his family.
Then he went to Trunks's timeline.

Then when Trunks arrived he altered Goku's/Present timeline and Beerus killed Present Zamasu before he could do anything.
And now Black only exist because of his time ring like Black said.

Goku:
"Didn't Beerus destroy you in the past?"
Black:
"It's all thanks to this time ring."
"Nothing that happens in the past can affect my current self."

Exactly, i really don't see how is this a paradox, if this was a paradox, we would have to ignore the fact that the events that created our Black couldn't have happened with Trunks going back in time ( i mean, Black taking Goku's body and killing him).

What i do think is that this is unexplained and incomplete, we need more answers, we don't even know a lot about the time rings.
I do think that there might be a plothole, because when Trunks changes something in history a new timeline appears, and (so far) there's no confirmation of this.

[HeroR]

The flashback we saw was clearly Episode 53 and the anime never hinted that Zamasu met Goku under different conditions. You also can't used the manga as reference since as of now, Zamasu hasn't even met Goku, forget fighting him, and the U7 Supreme Kai didn't visit U10.

[dbs fanboy]

The flashback we saw was clearly Episode 53 and the anime never hinted that Zamasu met Goku under different conditions. You also can't used the manga as reference since as of now, Zamasu hasn't even met Goku, forget fighting him, and the U7 Supreme Kai didn't visit U10.

I'm talking about the flashback where Black kills Gowasu.

[Alehandrew]

I don't think there's a loop or another timeline.
For me:
Black is Present Zamasu like they said.
Present Zamasu could have first know Goku from Kibito like in the mangas, and/or Godtube, Gowasu showed to him the time ring then Present Zamasu fight against him for another reason in Goku's/Present timeline.
Then he kill Gowasu, use the time ring (to skip one year), make his wish, and kill Goku and his family.
Then he went to Trunks's timeline.

Then when Trunks arrived he altered Goku's/Present timeline and Beerus killed Present Zamasu before he could do anything.
And now Black only exist because of his time ring like Black said.

Goku:
"Didn't Beerus destroy you in the past?"
Black:
"It's all thanks to this time ring."
"Nothing that happens in the past can affect my current self."

Exactly, i really don't see how is this a paradox, if this was a paradox, we would have to ignore the fact that the events that created our Black couldn't have happened with Trunks going back in time ( i mean, Black taking Goku's body and killing him).

What i do think is that this is unexplained and incomplete, we need more answers, we don't even know a lot about the time rings.
I do think that there might be a plothole, because when Trunks changes something in history a new timeline appears, and (so far) there's no confirmation of this.

I basically agree with you. I hope they explore and explain the time rings in more depth. I really think we're looking at a "master" silver time ring that can grant the holder special powers like being able to jump forward in time and not feel the effects of their past selves like with Zamasu, while also being able to go to any timeline. The green rings seem to lead to specific other timelines. I also think the green rings represent present timeline (re-written because of trunks and death of zamasu), future trunks timeline, and 2 others we don't know anything about as of yet.

About trunks changing history and creating a new timeline, this seems to be the inconsistency with DBZ. In DBS they seem to be treating it more like he has affected a "fluid" timeline causing it to play out differently than if he had never time traveled rather than create a new timeline.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Here's what I think: I don't think there is a timeline where Trunks doesn't time travel. He travels in all three in my opinion. The reason I say so is because Goku, Beerus and Whis would have no other reason to travel to Universe 10 to have Goku battle Zamasu without Trunks coming back to warn them of the Black Rose (and the Black Rose subsequently appearing to battle Goku temporarily). Here's my explanation:

Black Rose timeline: Trunks comes back to warn Goku and co. about the Black Rose. The Black Rose follows Trunks back in time, battles Goku, then gets sucked back into the future. Beerus/Whis recognize the Black Rose's ki to be similar/the same as Zamasu of Universe 10, and they travel there to investigate with Goku. Goku battles and defeats Zamasu, then Goku and co. leave. Zamasu becomes obsessed with Goku and formulates his plan to wipe out mortals and anyone else that sympathizes with them. However, he ends up killing Gowasu before Beerus/Whis can arrive in time to save him due to their suspicions. Zamasu gathers the Super Dragon Balls, swaps bodies with Goku, then murders Goku and his family, and makes it to Future Zamasu's timeline.

Main timeline: Almost identical to the Black Rose timeline, but Beerus/Whis intervene and Zamasu is destroyed before he becomes a serious threat.

Future Trunks timeline: Future Zamasu arrives to see the Black Rose kill Gowasu. It was clear that Future Zamasu hadn't thought of killing Gowasu yet, but was still enticed by the idea of becoming a Kaioshin. He unites with himself (the Black Rose), then uses the Super Dragon Balls to become immortal (likely to compensate for his lack of power compared to Black Rose, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks etc.). They then begin eliminating the other gods of their universe to become unopposed. After which, Future Zamasu, however, stays behind while Black Rose goes to wipe out humanity on Earth. Trunks then travels back in time for help.

At least, that's how I thought of it.

[UltimateHammerBro]

Here's what I think: I don't think there is a timeline where Trunks doesn't time travel. He travels in all three in my opinion. The reason I say so is because Goku, Beerus and Whis would have no other reason to travel to Universe 10 to have Goku battle Zamasu without Trunks coming back to warn them of the Black Rose (and the Black Rose subsequently appearing to battle Goku temporarily). Here's my explanation:

The only problem with this theory is that it makes Black's existence self-dependent: there needs to be a Black for Zamasu to become Black, so we'd need countless previous timelines to make it work. Not that this hasn't been done before (the classic Terminator films are a good example) but I personally don't see Dragon Ball using this model of time travel.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Here's what I think: I don't think there is a timeline where Trunks doesn't time travel. He travels in all three in my opinion. The reason I say so is because Goku, Beerus and Whis would have no other reason to travel to Universe 10 to have Goku battle Zamasu without Trunks coming back to warn them of the Black Rose (and the Black Rose subsequently appearing to battle Goku temporarily). Here's my explanation:

The only problem with this theory is that it makes Black's existence self-dependent: there needs to be a Black for Zamasu to become Black, so we'd need countless previous timelines to make it work. Not that this hasn't been done before (the classic Terminator films are a good example) but I personally don't see Dragon Ball using this model of time travel.

You're right; that's true. But again, what other reason would there be for Whis/Beerus to take Goku to fight Zamasu in Universe 10? If there were another reason besides Trunks coming back and saying "There's a guy that looks like Goku destroying my future" and then that guy appearing, I'm all ears. Super didn't necessarily explain everything that happened in Black Rose's timeline. And again, Zamasu would have never become Black had Trunks never come back in the first place (and thus, Goku would have died and by extension those countless timelines would not have occurred).

EDIT: Not to mention, Black Rose was aware of Trunks' time travelling (thus, the creation of another time ring and thus giving him the idea to join with his future self). Therefore, there's pretty much no way (not that I can think of) that Zamasu and Goku fought without Trunks time-travelling in the first place. So yeah, that countless timelines notion may actually be a thing.

[Will]

If Black was from an other timeline, they wouldn't say that he is Present Zamasu.
And Black wouldn't say that his time ring protected him from the change in the past.

Goku:
"Didn't Beerus destroy you in the past?"
Black:
"It's all thanks to this time ring."
"Nothing that happens in the past can affect my current self."

I think:
Black is Present Zamasu, but his past was changed.
And Present Zamasu was killed before he could do anything, Black only exist thanks to his time ring.

[Zephyr]

If Black is only still around because of the time ring, and he would under normal circumstances have died, then the Cell arc retroactively becomes a lot more dumb.

During the 10 day wait for the Cell Games, Trunks could have returned to the future, waited for Cell, and killed him there. Then, Perfect Cell who is holding the Games would then have to die, as his "past" was erased, and he had no time ring. They could have foregone fighting Perfect Cell altogether.

So I'm hoping the line was some throwaway fluff that Toei added.

[Will]

Cell wasn't from Future Trunks's timeline.
He was from another timeline, where he killed another Future Trunks.

[Noah]

I promised to reply to you and here it is. But I guess Speedster above explained very well what I was about to say.

[spoiler]

A timeline is a 4D entity, a sequence of “3D universal frames” spaced by a Plank time in 4th (time) dimension. In the 4D world everything (past, present, future) co-exists. The future history already exists but from our perspective it's fuzzy or in other words there is a default future history but is not yet solid and can be overwritten/changed. Past history can be changed too but that would require a timesplit and the creation of another existing timeline.

Generally, in order to maintain existence you need to maintain your continuity in the timeline. That is because the 3D instance of yourself at a certain timepoint depends on all the 3D instances of yourself that preceded that timepoint up until the very first one. However, if a person travels from one timeline to another, the timepoint they enter is their first 3D instance in the timeline and hence their new origin and reason of existence in that timeline. This means that a time-traveller to another timeline is unaffected by events that preceded their time-travel. Remember that different timelines are not linked in the 4th dimension. You need a 5D vehicle to travel from one to another so 4D existential continuities need to be independent amongst timelines.

Viewing things from this perspective means there is only need for two existing timelines (which also aligns with the fact there is only one recent time-ring created by “that idiot” aka Trunks). There is no *existing* Cell timeline, neither an unseen one, nor a Black’s one. All those were different fluid future histories that were overwritten by the actions of the time-travellers involved. But the time-travellers from those no-longer-existing timelines are unaffected as their new ‘origin’ and reason of existence is the moment they entered the timeline they are in.

The Cell who eventually became Perfect comes from a timeline that no longer exists but himself continued to exist (as if he successfully killed Trunks) because his "new origin” is his arrival in the main timeline. That is all the origin he needs in order to exist there. And that’s exactly what happens with Black too. Black comes from the original “fluid” future of the main timeline. That future has been overwritten but it doesn't matter as his existence doesn't rely on the main timeline anymore. His “origin” is his arrival in Trunks’ timeline. That’s sufficient for his own continuity and existence.

[/spoiler]

Dude, I'm still confused as hell

There's no consensus in all that yet? The first Zamasu we see is actually Black? But Black was only made by Goku actions triggered by Trunks coming back in time...

[emperior]

If Black is only still around because of the time ring, and he would under normal circumstances have died, then the Cell arc retroactively becomes a lot more dumb.

During the 10 day wait for the Cell Games, Trunks could have returned to the future, waited for Cell, and killed him there. Then, Perfect Cell who is holding the Games would then have to die, as his "past" was erased, and he had no time ring. They could have foregone fighting Perfect Cell altogether.

So I'm hoping the line was some throwaway fluff that Toei added.

The timeline gets erased only because Beerus killed Zamasu, but Black survives thanks to his time ring. If Beerus killed Cell I think every Cell from each timeline would have died too. My theory is that the 'Hakai' move of Beerus doesn't simply kill a person, it completely erases it from existence.

[Terra-jin]

If Black is only still around because of the time ring, and he would under normal circumstances have died, then the Cell arc retroactively becomes a lot more dumb.

During the 10 day wait for the Cell Games, Trunks could have returned to the future, waited for Cell, and killed him there. Then, Perfect Cell who is holding the Games would then have to die, as his "past" was erased, and he had no time ring. They could have foregone fighting Perfect Cell altogether.

So I'm hoping the line was some throwaway fluff that Toei added.

Well, neither Black nor Beerus has been shown to be any authority on the topic of time travel, so I'd take their statements with a grain of salt.

Beerus alleged ability to completely erase a person throughout time would make things convoluted, if not completely self-contradictory. Same goes for the time ring supposedly protecting the user from Beerus' ability.

[Hugo Boss]

Dude, I'm still confused as hell

There's no consensus in all that yet? The first Zamasu we see is actually Black? But Black was only made by Goku actions triggered by Trunks coming back in time...

In my opinion the show is not doing enough to clear up everything, but it slowly gives some hints. Now we know Beerus was wrong about the "time correcting itself" stuff (he admited to have no clue) and Black is Present Gowasu's student. So, Black's origin shouldn't happen if the events are dependent, but it seems they are not.

By the way, have you watched Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban? It has a similar case.

[Zephyr]

The timeline gets erased only because Beerus killed Zamasu

The Main Timeline was completely altered by Trunks showing up. The same way Trunks' Timeline was altered when he returned home stronger than Cell (and aware of his eventual ambush), rather than weaker and unaware. Butterfly effect. One new factor changes everything.

Black survives thanks to his time ring

My theory is that the 'Hakai' move of Beerus doesn't simply kill a person, it completely erases it from existence.

What's the reason for there being a relationship between a specific move of Beerus' and rings made for traveling through time? It just strikes me as odd and random.

Well, neither Black nor Beerus has been shown to be any authority on the topic of time travel, so I'd take their statements with a grain of salt.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm going with.

Cell wasn't from Future Trunks's timeline.
He was from another timeline, where he killed another Future Trunks.

Sure, in the same way that Black isn't from the main timeline, he's from another timeline where he killed Goku. The main timeline is the result of Black and Trunks time traveling, the same way the main timeline in the Cell arc was the result of Trunks and Cell time traveling.

[Will]

There's this, official picture for the timelines in this arc :
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv5LrcHUIAAsPQh.jpg

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/792153860731056128

[dbgtFO]

YES, YES, YES, UGHHH!
No bootstrap paradoxes/casual loop/stupid time travel logic.
Alternate timelines just like in the Cell Arc and Trunks unwittingly creating the main timeline now just as it fucking should be!

[Speedster]

YES, YES, YES, UGHHH!
No bootstrap paradoxes/casual loop/stupid time travel logic.
Alternate timelines just like in the Cell Arc and Trunks unwittingly creating the main timeline now just as it fucking should be!

No it doesn’t remove the timeloop paradox at all. All it says is that Black’s timeline is (almost) identical to the main one up to the point Zamasu kills Gowasu/gets killed by Beerus. Even though it seems to remove the paradox from the main timeline the paradox is just shifted to Black’s timeline. Black very clearly said that he was the same Zamasu who sparred with that same Goku showing footage of the event we saw in the main timeline. And Goku fought Zamasu as a result of him going to U10 with Beerus in order to investigate whether Zamasu is Black after Trunks’ timetravel which was in turn triggered by the appearance of Black in Trunk's timeline.

For that diagram to represent what the show showed us there needs to be a third EXISTING Black’s timeline (and not an overwritten history of the main timeline of which Black is a time remnant) and in that timeline the reason Goku fought Zamasu to be different (i.e. they didn't go there to investigate Black but Zamasu fought Goku due to Godtube or so). But this is not what happened in the series at all. The way I read the diagram and is in accordance with the series is that the main timeline and Black’s timeline were one and the same but when Beerus killed Zamasu/Zamasu killed Gowasu the timeline split and probably the past of each was slightly affected due to time ripples (in the similar way Cell's time travel caused ripples that led to the appearance of #19, #20 and #16 in the main timeline). The show suggests that Black's timeline is overwritten so in the diagram it might be there as a third "overwritten history" than an actual existing timeline. If there was a timeline there would a time ring for it.