Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

It is worth noting that when Raditz brought up the 1,330 number, he also mentioned that all that power as concentrated into Piccolo's fingertips, so maybe he realized there was something off about the technique.

The Anime lists the 2nd Makankosappo (Did I spell that right?) as being 1,480.
It's very much possible that the actual attack continued to rise in power. My arbitrary numbers list Piccolo as 1,530 when he fires his lasor.

On that note, what powar levuls would you people give to the following:
Enma Daio
Kuririn (Base Power)
Kuririn (Rage Boost?)
Kuririn (That-Attack-He-Used-To-Kill-The-Saibamen)
Chaozu (Base Power)
Chaozu (Pre Self Destruct)
Chaozu (Self Destruct)
Tenshinhan (Base Power)
Tenshinhan (Pre Kikoho)
Tenshinhan (Kikoho)
Kuririn (Kienzan)
Piccolo (Base Power)
Piccolo (Makankorikimaha? That attack which looks like both Bakurikimaha and Makankosappo combined)
Gohan (Base Power)
Gohan (Rage Boost / Pre Masenko)
Banan, Sui and Appule

[Sailor Haumea]

Chiaotzu was established to be like 670 I think.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It is worth noting that when Raditz brought up the 1,330 number, he also mentioned that all that power as concentrated into Piccolo's fingertips, so maybe he realized there was something off about the technique.

The Anime lists the 2nd Makankosappo (Did I spell that right?) as being 1,480.
It's very much possible that the actual attack continued to rise in power. My arbitrary numbers list Piccolo as 1,530 when he fires his lasor.

On that note, what powar levuls would you people give to the following:
Enma Daio = 2,500
Yamcha (You didn't asked, but i'll but him anyway) = 1,500
Kuririn (Base Power) = 1,750
Kuririn (Rage Boost?) = 2,000
Kuririn (That-Attack-He-Used-To-Kill-The-Saibamen) = 2,500
Chaozu (Base Power) = 1,000
Chaozu (Self Destruct) = 2,000
Tenshinhan (Base Power) = 2,400
Tenshinhan (Pre Kikoho (Injured?)) = 960
Tenshinhan (Kikoho) = 4,800
Kuririn (Kienzan) = Doesn't matter, can cut anything
Piccolo (Base Power) = 3,000
Piccolo (Makankorikimaha? That attack which looks like both Bakurikimaha and Makankosappo combined) = 3,600
Gohan (Base Power) = 1,080
Gohan (Rage Boost / Pre Masenko) = 2,800
Yajirobe (You didn't asked too, but doesn't matter) = 750
Banan, Sui and Appule = Appule at 3,000; Banan and Sui under 500.

And because i said, what you guys thinks about a Kiezan power level? Does this matter? IMO, a kiezan will cut you if you're off guard.

[DBZ Macky]

And because i said, what you guys thinks about a Kiezan power level? Does this matter? IMO, a kiezan will cut you if you're off guard.

That was one of the things I wanted people's opinion on. I don't think it was above 2,800 battle power wise, but it could've cut Nappa comfortably. I generally include non-contradicted filler into my own personal canon, so Kuririn's Kienzan could not cut Cell (Who was most probably bracing himself anyways).

I still think he could've cut Cell if he was, for instance, having a beam struggle with Gohan... wait... then why didn't he use it... in fact, why not use the Taiyouken?

The Kienzan worked on Freeza who was at a minimum 1,000,000 BP while Kuririn was a minimum 75,000.
If you want to go by "multipliers" and that sort of stuff, then Kienzan would be at least a 13x multiplier... which seems alright.

On that note, would someone want to tackle the Shin Kikoho situation now?
It won't make sense if Ten would be able to kill #17 & #18 with it. maybe the Kikoho has immense "pushing" power while the Kienzan has the same cutting power?

Kuririn and Tenshinhan are the bald rival earthlings with plot convenient HAXXED techniques. Even Kaboom has them close enough in the BoG arc after years of downplaying Tenshinhan to make official statements work

[DanielSSJ]

And because i said, what you guys thinks about a Kienzan power level? Does this matter? IMO, a Kienzan will cut you if you're off guard.

I just take it as it is and say that the Kienzan's usefulness comes more from how the Ki is shaped and molded rather than how much raw power the thing is actually packing. Especially since it's never mentioned that Kuririn's power rose when forming the attack like Raditz did when Piccolo formed his Makankosappo, and I think someone might've said something if Kuririn's Ki suddenly jump into the million range when he cut off Freeza's tail. I also don't think it's too out of the box that someone with a ridiculous power advantage like Cell could take the thing head-on without a scratch.

On that note, would someone want to tackle the Shin Kikoho situation now?
It won't make sense if Ten would be able to kill #17 & #18 with it. maybe the Kikoho has immense "pushing" power while the Kienzan has the same cutting power?

Kuririn and Tenshinhan are the bald rival earthlings with plot convenient HAXXED techniques. Even Kaboom has them close enough in the BoG arc after years of downplaying Tenshinhan to make official statements work

Since the Kikoho draws so heavily on one's life-force, it has crazy raw power and destructive ability, but that doesn't really matter when your foe is probably a few hundred times stronger than you. Given that the Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary (a translation of which can be found here.) describes it basically as an overpowered Kiai, I'd say it's safe to say that it's biggest merit against much stronger foes is it's "pushing force", as you described it. Frankly, if Tenshinhan tried it on No. 17 or No. 18, it probably wouldn't do much besides keep them pinned down, like what happened with Semi-Perfect Cell.

[Kaboom]

What do you guys have Saiyan Saga Vegeta at after he turns back into human after having his tail chopped off?
Above Nappa? Below?

By that point his injuries and fatigue were probably holding him back a whole lot, even if he still had a power level reserve of a few thousand to work with. So maybe something like a PL of 5,000 but barely able to fight on a level of 2,000 or something?

Where was stated that it took place a whole year before Raditz? I remember it was before yeah, but 1 year? Well then again, the power levels wouldn't be that different though.

Daizenshuu #6's movie guide supposes that it must take place before Raditz arrived since Goku is alive, but that doesn't really work either. Since unlike at the start of the Saiyan arc, Goku's posse at Kame House know about Gohan, it's got to be an "alternate history" thing like pretty much all the other movies.

So for my own movie power levels, because of the wish thing, I assume that in this AU the reunion at Kame House progressed peacefully and some additional time has passed since then. So I actually rank Goku and Piccolo both a little stronger than they were against Raditz. But alternatively, one could just as easily assume it happened sooner instead too.

On scales of 1 to 10, how would you put these characters:

The question about SS2 Goku and Vegeta not dying against Boo was already answered, but whatever. Like others, a 1-100 scale instead because the differences get too big to squeeze between 1 and 10...

SS2 Gohan: 1.5
SS2 Goku/Vegeta: 2
SS3 Goku: 8
Fat Boo: 4
Pure Evil (Gray) Boo: 2.5
Evil (Super) Boo: 24 (+Gotenks: 50, +Gohan: 54)
SS3 Gotenks: 26
Ultimate Gohan: 30
Super Vegetto: 100+

And because i said, what you guys thinks about a Kiezan power level? Does this matter? IMO, a kiezan will cut you if you're off guard.

On that note, would someone want to tackle the Shin Kikoho situation now?
It won't make sense if Ten would be able to kill #17 & #18 with it. maybe the Kikoho has immense "pushing" power while the Kienzan has the same cutting power?
Kuririn and Tenshinhan are the bald rival earthlings with plot convenient HAXXED techniques. Even Kaboom has them close enough in the BoG arc after years of downplaying Tenshinhan to make official statements work

I think the effectiveness of both attacks comes less from the power behind them and more how they're formed.

The Kienzan is a highly-focused disc with a "sharp" edge that's designed to basically cut right through defenses. The ki forming it is so concentrated on that edge that it kind of works the same way as Piccolo's Makankosappo and is able to slice right through foes significantly stronger than Kuririn, like it did to Freeza.

The Kikoho is kind of the same but in a different way. Pretty much like you said, it has "pushing" power working for it if nothing else. It's the mother of all kiai/shockwave techniques, and is designed to just SLAM into its target with a massive amount of force. Now it also has substantially more power behind it than Tenshinhan's normal level, but when the ki power itself isn't enough to hurt a stronger foe, that concussive force can still affect them.

So no, I don't believe by any means that Ten spent the entire Trunks and Androids arcs secretly holding onto a miracle move that could have killed the big bads all along. If he were to land the Shin Kikoho on someone on his level, or only a few times stronger than him like Kuririn, then yeah, it would kill them or at least seriously mess them up. But someone hundreds or thousands of time stronger than him like the Androids? No way. The force behind the technique would physically knock them around like it did to Cell, but the energy or ki power behind the technique, likely a few times stronger than Ten's normal level, wouldn't be enough to hurt them at all.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On that note, would someone want to tackle the Shin Kikoho situation now?
It won't make sense if Ten would be able to kill #17 & #18 with it. maybe the Kikoho has immense "pushing" power while the Kienzan has the same cutting power?

I think Tien was really able to kill #17, #18 and maybe #16. 16 punched Semi-Perfect Cell with full force in the face and he even moved. Tien heavily affected Cell with the Kikoho.

if Tenshinhan tried it on No. 17 or No. 18, it probably wouldn't do much besides keep them pinned down, like what happened with Semi-Perfect Cell.

If Kikoho is a kiai, why Nappa didn't move when Tien used the Kikoho in the Saiyan Saga?

[DBZ Macky]

I think Tien was really able to kill #17, #18 and maybe #16. 16 punched Semi-Perfect Cell with full force in the face and he even moved. Tien raped Cell with the Kikoho.

Well, there's nothing contradicting it. It sure would be an easily avoidable case of "Plot Induced Stupidity" though.

If Kikoho is a kiai, why Nappa didn't move when Tien used the Kikoho in the Saiyan Saga?

Because, he actually braced himself? I'm not sure but I think someone said that the attack would have somewhat damaged Nappa if he hadn't seen it coming. Can anyone confirm this?

[Kaboom]

If Kikoho is a kiai, why Nappa didn't move when Tien used the Kikoho in the Saiyan Saga?

That was a much weaker version of the Kikoho, fired with only one hand from a Tenshinhan who was already half-dead and drastically weakened. Plus, Nappa's an insanely durable and defensive fighter to boot, having already shrugged off things like Chaozu's self-destruct and bouncing back from Goku's attacks later.

The two situations are hardly comparable.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because, he actually braced himself? I'm not sure but I think someone said that the attack would have somewhat damaged Nappa if he hadn't seen it coming. Can anyone confirm this?

Nope, he wasn't braced. In the anime (And probably in the manga, i couldn't find now.) he is clearly taken by surprise by the Kikoho.

That was a much weaker version of the Kikoho, fired with only one hand from a Tenshinhan who was already half-dead and drastically weakened. Plus, Nappa's an insanely durable and defensive fighter to boot, having already shrugged off things like Chaozu's self-destruct and bouncing back from Goku's attacks later.

The two situations are hardly comparable.

Oh. You totally refuted me.

And you are the creator of this discussion, right? I would like to thank for that, it was a great idea for people to discuss about their opinions and arrive (or not) in a consensus.

[dragonball0900]

Here are the power levels of The World’s Strongest. It was stated that this movie would take place in an alterntate timelinea after Goku's battle with Vegeta, so I made Goku to have a zenkai power.

Goku – 13000

Goku Kaioken X2 – 26000

Goku Kaioken X3 – 39000

Goku Kaioken X4 - 52000

Gohan – 981

Weighted Piccolo - 1970

Piccolo – 2500

Piccolo (Possesed) – 7000

Krillin – 1770

Master Roshi – 139

Bio-Men – 100

Dr. Kochin – 8 (with his machinery and staff, he would be much powerful)

Kishime – 7000

Ebifurya – 7500

Misokatsun – 4300 (with his flexibility, he can take foes that are much stronger)

Dr Wheelo - 30000

Dr Wheelo's Beam – 39000

[RandomGuy96]

This seems like a good time to point out that energy =/= power and power =/= force.

[Sailor Haumea]

Where was stated that it took place a whole year before Raditz? I remember it was before yeah, but 1 year? Well then again, the power levels wouldn't be that different though.

Daizenshuu #6's movie guide supposes that it must take place before Raditz arrived since Goku is alive, but that doesn't really work either. Since unlike at the start of the Saiyan arc, Goku's posse at Kame House know about Gohan, it's got to be an "alternate history" thing like pretty much all the other movies.

So for my own movie power levels, because of the wish thing, I assume that in this AU the reunion at Kame House progressed peacefully and some additional time has passed since then. So I actually rank Goku and Piccolo both a little stronger than they were against Raditz. But alternatively, one could just as easily assume it happened sooner instead too.

Goku never identifies Gohan as his son in Dead Zone. He just mentions to Roshi and Krillin "they took Gohan!" or something, and so off they go. They could've assumed it was some boy who lived nearby that Goku was friends with. And Krillin sustained several head injuries throughout the movie, so it's quite possible he has no recollection of its events.

[DanielSSJ]

Goku never identifies Gohan as his son in Dead Zone. He just mentions to Roshi and Krillin "they took Gohan!" or something, and so off they go. They could've assumed it was some boy who lived nearby that Goku was friends with. And Krillin sustained several head injuries throughout the movie, so it's quite possible he has no recollection of its events.

Yeah, because Kuririn is gonna assume that the kid who looks very similar to Goku when he was a kid, has the same surname (in a world where surnames in and of themselves are uncommon), has the same name as Goku's grandpa, is wearing a hat with Goku's four-star Dragon Ball, and has a tail, is just some kid in Goku's neighborhood. Kuririn's not that stupid, nor were his head injuries that severe.

[Sailor Haumea]

Goku never identifies Gohan as his son in Dead Zone. He just mentions to Roshi and Krillin "they took Gohan!" or something, and so off they go. They could've assumed it was some boy who lived nearby that Goku was friends with. And Krillin sustained several head injuries throughout the movie, so it's quite possible he has no recollection of its events.

Yeah, because Kuririn is gonna assume that the kid who looks very similar to Goku when he was a kid, has the same surname (in a world where surnames in and of themselves are uncommon), has the same name as Goku's grandpa, is wearing a hat with Goku's four-star Dragon Ball, and has a tail, is just some kid in Goku's neighborhood. Kuririn's not that stupid, nor were his head injuries that severe.

The idea Dead Zone is an AU flies out the window with the Garlic Jr. Saga.

[ekrolo2]

Has anyone attempted a PL list with the invisible KK-theory where Goku's Base is actually 300k and 15 million as Super Saiyan for some of the later arcs or is that just flat out impossible to reconcile with events as we know them?

[nickzambuto]

Goku never identifies Gohan as his son in Dead Zone. He just mentions to Roshi and Krillin "they took Gohan!" or something, and so off they go. They could've assumed it was some boy who lived nearby that Goku was friends with. And Krillin sustained several head injuries throughout the movie, so it's quite possible he has no recollection of its events.

Yeah, because Kuririn is gonna assume that the kid who looks very similar to Goku when he was a kid, has the same surname (in a world where surnames in and of themselves are uncommon), has the same name as Goku's grandpa, is wearing a hat with Goku's four-star Dragon Ball, and has a tail, is just some kid in Goku's neighborhood. Kuririn's not that stupid, nor were his head injuries that severe.

Krillin doesn't remember Dead Zone because of the giant stone that fell on his head. That's hilarious. That's my new headcanon.

[Nejishiki]

Kuririn knows it's Goku's son. He functioned just fine after everything wrapped up.

Kuririn: "Where's Goku's child!?"

[RandomGuy96]

Has anyone attempted a PL list with the invisible KK-theory where Goku's Base is actually 300k and 15 million as Super Saiyan for some of the later arcs or is that just flat out impossible to reconcile with events as we know them?

I only use "invisible Kaio-Ken" for movie 5, due to the sounds and the depiction in the anime. It doesn't really make sense for anything else (e.g. SS Vegeta not completely dwarfing SS Goku even though by this logic base Vegeta would be many times stronger than Goku). "Invisible Kaio-Ken" doesn't even really exist in the manga.

[DanielSSJ]

The idea Dead Zone is an AU flies out the window with the Garlic Jr. Saga.

And it flies right back into the window once the word "filler" gets uttered.

Has anyone attempted a PL list with the invisible KK-theory where Goku's Base is actually 300k and 15 million as Super Saiyan for some of the later arcs or is that just flat out impossible to reconcile with events as we know them?

Given how Vegeta was definitely stronger than Piccolo before his death, and therefor over 1 million, it's extremely unlikely that Goku was only at 300,000 during that fight. It would mean that Goku had to have gotten about 10x stronger overall in between the Freeza arc and Androids arc in order to be about as strong as Vegeta during that arc, which defeats the purpose of using smaller numbers in the first place, or that Goku's Super Saiyan form just has a bigger boost for no real reason, or that Goku was using Kaioken in conjunction with Super Saiyan, which is impossible for a whole lot of reasons.

Evil (Super) Boo: 12
SS3 Gotenks: 26

Uh, that's a typo, right?