"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Yall know what, and I first heard this from Blackenfist's youtube channel some weeks ago, it would have made more sense for Toei to say the time split happened when Whis did his time manipulation.

A good number of things would have made more sense than what we got. Whis' do-over technique could have been revealed to be actual time travel that alters the past into a new timeline as you said, or perhaps present Zamasu could have killed Gowasu in Episode 59 and escaped with the time ring before Beerus and co. arrived, or maybe Trunks' constant travels to the past could have been splitting the timeline every time. Alas, that's not quite the case. If they were really going to make Black's identity the Zamasu from Goku's timeline, there's a multitude of infinitely better - simpler, even! - ways they could have gone about it.

I must admit that I'm itching to see how Toyotaro will write out the whole situation.

[Shinomori]

Yall know what, and I first heard this from Blackenfist's youtube channel some weeks ago, it would have made more sense for Toei to say the time split happened when Whis did his time manipulation.

A good number of things would have made more sense than what we got. Whis' do-over technique could have been revealed to be actual time travel that alters the past into a new timeline as you said, or perhaps present Zamasu could have killed Gowasu in Episode 59 and escaped with the time ring before Beerus and co. arrived, or maybe Trunks' constant travels to the past could have been splitting the timeline every time. Alas, that's not quite the case. If they were really going to make Black's identity the Zamasu from Goku's timeline, there's a multitude of infinitely better - simpler, even! - ways they could have gone about it.

I must admit that I'm itching to see how Toyotaro will write out the whole situation.

Yeah, I can't wait to see the manga's handling of the situation.

[HeroR]

He isn't stated to have a different motive in the anime, so no. The U7 Supreme Kai died as shown, then Black killed all of the others.

He didn't die until Black killed him since Trunks never stated or hinted that the Supreme Kai died fighting Dabura like in the manga. Go back and look at Episode 49 when Trunks explained what happened to Majin Buu.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He isn't stated to have a different motive in the anime, so no. The U7 Supreme Kai died as shown, then Black killed all of the others.

He didn't die until Black killed him since Trunks never stated or hinted that the Supreme Kai died fighting Dabura like in the manga. Go back and look at Episode 49 when Trunks explained what happened to Majin Buu.

The manga merely filled in the gaps. I'm not sure how you think that Trunks just randomly found out that the Supreme Kai was killed by a someone who isn't Dabura or apart of Babidi's group, but thought nothing of it. This isn't rocket science. He died after Babidi's invasion.

[HeroR]

The manga merely filled in the gaps. I'm not sure how you think that Trunks just randomly found out that the Supreme Kai was killed by a someone who isn't Dabura or apart of Babidi's group, but thought nothing of it. This isn't rocket science. He died after Babidi's invasion.

The manga and the anime are different continuities of Toriyama's notes. The manga doesn't fill gaps left by the anime, and the anime doesn't fill gaps left by the manga. In the anime version of the events, the Supreme Kai wasn't killed by Dabura. Trunks never said the Supreme Kai was killed in the anime, period. Black and Future Zamasu said they killed all the gods, which includes U7's Supreme Kai. Black never said he was looking for a time period without Beerus.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The manga merely filled in the gaps. I'm not sure how you think that Trunks just randomly found out that the Supreme Kai was killed by a someone who isn't Dabura or apart of Babidi's group, but thought nothing of it. This isn't rocket science. He died after Babidi's invasion.

The manga and the anime are different continuities of Toriyama's notes. The manga doesn't fill gaps left by the anime, and the anime doesn't fill gaps left by the manga. In the anime version of the events, the Supreme Kai wasn't killed by Dabura. Trunks never said the Supreme Kai was killed in the anime, period. Black and Future Zamasu said they killed all the gods, which includes U7's Supreme Kai. Black never said he was looking for a time period without Beerus.

No, the manga and anime aren't different continuities. It's the same exact story, with minor differences in the telling. The manga states that Black needed to find a timeline without Beerus. It states that the Supreme Kai died after fighting Babidi. That is fact.
Trunks never stated that the Supreme Kai was alive in the anime either. There wasn't any reason to bring it up, so the explanation that was already given remains supreme over any speculation and Black killed all of the remaining Gods, not the Supreme Kai of Universe 7.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No, the manga and anime aren't different continuities. It's the same exact story, with minor differences in the telling.

They are different continuities, actually. It doesn't matter how similar the stories are, the alternate telling of events is practically the definition of different continuities.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, the manga and anime aren't different continuities. It's the same exact story, with minor differences in the telling.

They are different continuities, actually. It doesn't matter how similar the stories are, the alternate telling of events is practically the definition of different continuities.

That's not the definition of different continuities.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That's not the definition of different continuities.

No, it's not the literal definition, but it covers the point of it:

• --"the unbroken and consistent existence or operation of something over a period of time."
  --"the maintenance of continuous action and self-consistent detail in the various scenes of a movie or broadcast."

There are plenty of changes between the manga & anime (film too, technically for the first two arcs) that don't preserve consistent details between the story's scenes. The manga doesn't have Goku absorb Super Saiyan God's power, so the power scale is different throughout. Goku doesn't use the Kaio-ken at the Hakaishin Invitational and thus doesn't come down with the ki disorder...meaning you can't finish the tournament in the manga and pick up from Episode 42 and remain consistent.

These are just two examples, and there are many more.

[Nejishiki]

We already have prior examples of this with the original story, Dragon Ball movies, Dragon Ball Z movies, Dragon Ball GT, and video game tales. For all intents and purposes, the anime and manga of Dragon Ball Super do not co-exist as the same reality. Yes, they tell the same basic story, but there's no possible way to reconcile that they don't occur together. That's the purpose of the term. They're separate continuities. For one example, there are three separate accounts of Goku vs Beerus. While they may tell similar stories, they can't support each other as equivalent realities.

[Terra-jin]

As much as I hate to admit it, supersaiyangodgogeta is correct in that Black is for all intents and purposes the present Zamasu we're all familiar with. Multiple characters have suggested this to be the case ever since Black's big revelation, not to mention the graphic essentially confirmed it altogether by insinuating that Beerus split the timelines.

Of course, it still doesn't make a lick of sense that Beerus can just alter the time loop at his whim if his very own progression of decisions serves as the foundation of that loop, but what are you gonna do? Can't expect the storytelling to be perfect I suppose.

The broken causal loop theory does seem to be the official explanation at this point, even though it's internally contradictory. I still think that there's room for other interpretations, because Beerus and Blacks statements are not necessarily true or literal, and the infographic is worded somewhat ambiguously.

My headcanon is that Black is from the unseen timeline (the one aka the 4th timeline, from the Cell arc). Black comes from a timeline which is similar, but not identical to the main timeline, in which he learns about Goku, SSB and Vegeta. Other than that Trunks (the one that's killed by Cell) discovered some means to stop the artificial humans there, little is known, which means it's at least possible that events unfolded in a manner similar to the main timeline. Beerus could still have his dream about the SSG, Goku and Vegeta might still have faced Majin Buu and reached SSj 2 and 3, and the tournament against Universe 6 might also have happened. None of it is confirmed, of course, but its possibility is enough.

The infographic states "because Beerus destroyed Zamasu, the main history is reorganized and split into two histories", which seems to indicate that this act is the thing that split the timelines, but it may be interpreted to mean that Beerus destroying Zamasu is the biggest, defining difference between the unseen timeline and the main timeline. I must admit, though, that this is a bit of a stretch, but if we ignore the infographic, I think the unseen timeline is an internally consistent explanation of Black's origin that does not contradict previously established time travel mechanics.

How much canonical authority does the infographic have? It's released by TOEI, but is it 100% supported by Toriyama and Toyotaro?

[nato25]

Why is everyone mentioning split timelines and loops and bootstrap theories? Why don't people think Zamasu that became Black is just from another timeline, just like how Cell was?

In my mind anyway there are 3 Zamasu's that we see/know about.

- Zamasu that fought Goku and then later got killed by Beerus. This Zamasu basically achieved nothing, even failing to kill Gowasu.
- The Zamasu from Trunks timeline. He is just Zamasu basically, the one we see all buddy-buddy with Black.
- The Zamasu that became Black, killed Chi Chi and Goten and then came to Trunks timeline so he could wreak havoc with that Zamasu and live in the cabin together. This timeline seems to have been identical to the main timeline we know, except for the fact Beerus never showed up to kill Zamasu thus his plans fully succeeded. Even so I don't see why this has to be seen as another split, Trunks timeline seemed to play out exactly the same up to the creation of the Androids.

As the info-graphic says, timelines are basically alternate worlds in Dragon Ball, where different events could happen. Just like we've seen before, in one timeline Goku dies of a heart virus, in our main timeline he lives (even though its thanks to Trunks medicine but still). There's probably another timeline where Goku never got a heart virus as well. The only problem with this theory (well not the whole theory just the last bit about another universe existing where Goku never gets a heart virus) may be that that the green time rings indicate there are only 4 timelines besides the main one and that's it.

However that doesn't really make sense, as Trunks timeline would have still existed even if he had not travelled back to the past so does that create a time ring? Or does the time ring represent the main timeline from the point forward where he entered the main timeline, thus allowing Goku to leave and events to play out different than in Trunks timeline, events which would have come to fruition in the main timeline as well had Trunks not come back.

Man it's confusing but I love the amount of discussion this causes.

[HeroR]

Why is everyone mentioning split timelines and loops and bootstrap theories? Why don't people think Zamasu that became Black is just from another timeline, just like how Cell was?

In my mind anyway there are 3 Zamasu's that we see/know about.

- Zamasu that fought Goku and then later got killed by Beerus. This Zamasu basically achieved nothing, even failing to kill Gowasu.
- The Zamasu from Trunks timeline. He is just Zamasu basically, the one we see all buddy-buddy with Black.
- The Zamasu that became Black, killed Chi Chi and Goten and then came to Trunks timeline so he could wreak havoc with that Zamasu and live in the cabin together. This timeline seems to have been identical to the main timeline we know, except for the fact Beerus never showed up to kill Zamasu thus his plans fully succeeded. Even so I don't see why this has to be seen as another split, Trunks timeline seemed to play out exactly the same up to the creation of the Androids.

As the info-graphic says, timelines are basically alternate worlds in Dragon Ball, where different events could happen. Just like we've seen before, in one timeline Goku dies of a heart virus, in our main timeline he lives (even though its thanks to Trunks medicine but still). There's probably another timeline where Goku never got a heart virus as well. The only problem with this theory (well not the whole theory just the last bit about another universe existing where Goku never gets a heart virus) may be that that the green time rings indicate there are only 4 timelines besides the main one and that's it.

However that doesn't really make sense, as Trunks timeline would have still existed even if he had not travelled back to the past so does that create a time ring? Or does the time ring represent the main timeline from the point forward where he entered the main timeline, thus allowing Goku to leave and events to play out different than in Trunks timeline, events which would have come to fruition in the main timeline as well had Trunks not come back.

Man it's confusing but I love the amount of discussion this causes.

Zamasu and Bulma both said that Black is the same Zamasu that they knew, or Present Zamasu.

How much canonical authority does the infographic have? It's released by TOEI, but is it 100% supported by Toriyama and Toyotaro?

It is canon to the anime. Whatever Toyotaro does is only canon to the manga. Since Toriyama oversees both, they're canon to their respective media.

[Marlowe89]

The manga doesn't have Goku absorb Super Saiyan God's power, so the power scale is different throughout.

To be fair, it only seems that way if you're constantly looking at BoG in retrospect throughout the U6 and Trunks arcs. The power scale in those stories essentially looks to be mostly the same otherwise.

Continuity aside, I don't think there's anything wrong with the view that the manga can fill in holes for certain details lacking in the anime. We know that there's some level of communication/instruction that goes on between Toei and Toyotaro, so it's not entirely far-fetched to see the two adaptations as somewhat complimentary despite their differences.

[HeroR]

The manga doesn't have Goku absorb Super Saiyan God's power, so the power scale is different throughout.

To be fair, it only seems that way if you're constantly looking at BoG in retrospect throughout the U6 and Trunks arcs. The power scale in those stories essentially looks to be mostly the same otherwise.

Continuity aside, I don't think there's anything wrong with the view that the manga can fill in holes for certain details lacking in the anime. We know that there's some level of communication/instruction that goes on between Toei and Toyotaro, so it's not entirely far-fetched to see the two adaptations as somewhat complimentary despite their differences.

Toyotaro says he purposely change things to make it different from the anime. They don't really compliment each other. And the manga treats Super Saiyan God as its own transformation, while Goku absorbs it in the anime and never used it again.

[Terra-jin]

In my mind anyway there are 3 Zamasu's that we see/know about.

- Zamasu that fought Goku and then later got killed by Beerus. This Zamasu basically achieved nothing, even failing to kill Gowasu.
- The Zamasu from Trunks timeline. He is just Zamasu basically, the one we see all buddy-buddy with Black.
- The Zamasu that became Black, killed Chi Chi and Goten and then came to Trunks timeline so he could wreak havoc with that Zamasu and live in the cabin together. This timeline seems to have been identical to the main timeline we know, except for the fact Beerus never showed up to kill Zamasu thus his plans fully succeeded. Even so I don't see why this has to be seen as another split, Trunks timeline seemed to play out exactly the same up to the creation of the Androids.

Agreed. In my theory, there's four Zamasu's:

- A Future Zamasu from the original timeline, Cell's future. We don't meet this Zamasu and his plans have probably never materialised (poor bastard still serves gallons of tea to Gowasu).
- A Present Zamasu from the unseen timeline. The unseen timeline is another version of "The Present", just as Cell's future is akin to Trunks' future. This Zamasu is the one who becomes Black.
- A Present Zamasu from the main timeline. This "Present Zamasu" is killed by Beerus. By labelling them like this, both Black and the Zamasu we see killed can be called Present Zamasu.
- A Future Zamasu from Trunks' future. This one becomes immortal and eventually fuses with Black.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's not the definition of different continuities.

No, it's not the literal definition, but it covers the point of it:

• --"the unbroken and consistent existence or operation of something over a period of time."
  --"the maintenance of continuous action and self-consistent detail in the various scenes of a movie or broadcast."

There are plenty of changes between the manga & anime (film too, technically for the first two arcs) that don't preserve consistent details between the story's scenes. The manga doesn't have Goku absorb Super Saiyan God's power, so the power scale is different throughout. Goku doesn't use the Kaio-ken at the Hakaishin Invitational and thus doesn't come down with the ki disorder...meaning you can't finish the tournament in the manga and pick up from Episode 42 and remain consistent.

These are just two examples, and there are many more.

Sounds like a reach to me.
Continuity here is where an official work is on the timeline compared to other works. Minor differences in telling have nothing to do with continuity. Resurrection of F the movie and the Resurrection of F DB Super Arc aren't in different continuities just because they have differences. That makes no sense whatsoever. They are both the official continuations of the main story.

The manga doesn't have Goku not absorb God's power and the power scale is no different. The fact that he can transform into Super Saiyan God shows that he absorbed and retained the power.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Sounds like a reach to me.
Continuity here is where an official work is on the timeline compared to other works. Minor differences in telling have nothing to do with continuity. Resurrection of F the movie and the Resurrection of F DB Super Arc aren't in different continuities just because they have differences. That makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not a reach. The problem here is that you don't seem to fully understand the concept of continuity. You are using your own, very broad definition of the term...when that's not all there is to it. Yes continuity can be as broad as you're describing, but it can also be much smaller in scale, referencing consistency as far as scene to scene within the same work.

The very basic fact that the adaptations have differences between them, of varying importance and some impacting later arcs, is evidence of 3 separate continuities: film, anime, manga.

[nato25]

Sounds like a reach to me.
Continuity here is where an official work is on the timeline compared to other works. Minor differences in telling have nothing to do with continuity. Resurrection of F the movie and the Resurrection of F DB Super Arc aren't in different continuities just because they have differences. That makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not a reach. The problem here is that you don't seem to fully understand the concept of continuity. You are using your own, very broad definition of the term...when that's not all there is to it. Yes continuity can be as broad as you're describing, but it can also be much smaller in scale, referencing consistency as far as scene to scene within the same work.

The very basic fact that the adaptations have differences between them, of varying importance and some impacting later arcs, is evidence of 3 separate continuities: film, anime, manga.

Well said Devils Corpse. You can't take bits and pieces from the films, manga and anime and use them all to describe the same story. The films are the films, the manga is the manga and the anime is the anime. Yes, they all hit the same major plot points E.g. Goku doesn't defeat Beerus, but a lot of settings, descriptions and even some events are very different.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Sounds like a reach to me.
Continuity here is where an official work is on the timeline compared to other works. Minor differences in telling have nothing to do with continuity. Resurrection of F the movie and the Resurrection of F DB Super Arc aren't in different continuities just because they have differences. That makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not a reach. The problem here is that you don't seem to fully understand the concept of continuity. You are using your own, very broad definition of the term...when that's not all there is to it. Yes continuity can be as broad as you're describing, but it can also be much smaller in scale, referencing consistency as far as scene to scene within the same work.

The very basic fact that the adaptations have differences between them, of varying importance and some impacting later arcs, is evidence of 3 separate continuities: film, anime, manga.

There is only continuity in terms of story. There is no such thing as film, anime and manga continuity. That's a fanmade concept. Consistency has nothing to do with continuity to begin with. The only determining factor in what's placed in the continuity is official word, nothing more. Pointless to try and made it more complicated than it actually is when the official heads themselves don't hold that viewpoint.