Unpopular DB opinions

[Anime Kitten]

Pan's GT design is one of the best in the franchise.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

In fact, Goku growing up, going through many changes in personality and styles

He doesn't actually change in personality. He's the same from beginning to end. At most, I'd say he gets a little less naïve.

For Goku, he gets progressively less ignorant, as well as more innovative in battle. Goku is responsible for almost every useful innovation in Super Saiyan Power. Even the ones that Trunks and Vegeta discovered, Goku did the same on his own, and immediately thought of a way to surpass it. Goku's Arc is the evolution of his genius (which was unfortunately abandoned in the Boo Arc). Piccolo started out as the incarnation of evil, but proved that ultimately, he could choose to be whatever he wanted. Roshi's appreciation for his students grow over time, to the point where he all but retires, content to leave the future to Goku. Vegeta abandons his savage ways, and at the end, accepts his love of the Earth, his family, and most of all, he accepts his place. He realizes that he's not all that he cracks himself up to be. Tenshinhan started out as an arrogant, cruel fighter, but came to prefer the ways of the Turtle School. Gohan , the mild-mannered half-breed with seemingly no future in combat evolved into the greatest the world had ever seen, but gave it up in his pursuit to become a scholar. However, once Boo came about, he was forced to stand up to the plate once again. It was really hammered home that Gohan can't afford not to train, that he should be ready if the world needs him. Unfortunately, the newer material regressed his character back to a pre-Boo state.

Most of the major characters grew as time went on, even though some of them were abandoned as time went on. But DBS is different, nothing but their power has changed. The only characters that have had any development from the newer material are Beerus & Cabba, but only to a mild degree, and Zamasu.

[ABED]

I don't know how you quantify him as becoming more innovative over time as he's always been an innovator of techniques. His personality is the same from beginning to end and he is ever so slightly more educated, but even then his math is never great as evidenced in his battle against Ninja Murasaki. He doesn't change. Adding a few new techniques isn't changing. He doesn't get progressively less ignorant. How is he that much smarter in the Buu arc than when we first meet him?

Most of the major characters grew as time went on

No, most of the characters grew over a single arc. Vegeta is the outlier. Roshi is different because he went from retired to teacher to retired again when he was surpassed. Gohan also changes in one arc. He's a crybaby and by the end, he's a capable fighter who has overcome his fears.
Tenshinhan is introduced and changes all in one arc, same with Kuririn, same with Yamcha, same with Chaozu, same with even Piccolo to an extent.

Your assessment about Super being so different is off the mark.

[kinisking]

I don't know how you quantify him as becoming more innovative over time as he's always been an innovator of techniques. His personality is the same from beginning to end and he is ever so slightly more educated, but even then his math is never great as evidenced in his battle against Ninja Murasaki. He doesn't change. Adding a few new techniques isn't changing. He doesn't get progressively less ignorant. How is he that much smarter in the Buu arc than when we first meet him?

Most of the major characters grew as time went on

No, most of the characters grew over a single arc. Vegeta is the outlier. Roshi is different because he went from retired to teacher to retired again when he was surpassed. Gohan also changes in one arc. He's a crybaby and by the end, he's a capable fighter who has overcome his fears.
Tenshinhan is introduced and changes all in one arc, same with Kuririn, same with Yamcha, same with Chaozu, same with even Piccolo to an extent.

Your assessment about Super being so different is off the mark.

Gohan's development is over multiple arcs also. You can't say he's the same character in the namek arc as he is in the boo arc. He's much more confident , is less dependent on his dad, goofier, persistent etc. He also develops into a loving dad. In both versions of ROF he also shows development. In the movie he leaves to take his enemies out as quickly as possible (shisami) and in the series he refuses goten and trunks to participate. You see him take on that elderly role although it's kind of ruined when piccolo protects him.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't know how you quantify him as becoming more innovative over time as he's always been an innovator of techniques. His personality is the same from beginning to end and he is ever so slightly more educated, but even then his math is never great as evidenced in his battle against Ninja Murasaki. He doesn't change. Adding a few new techniques isn't changing. He doesn't get progressively less ignorant. How is he that much smarter in the Buu arc than when we first meet him?

Most of the major characters grew as time went on

No, most of the characters grew over a single arc. Vegeta is the outlier. Roshi is different because he went from retired to teacher to retired again when he was surpassed. Gohan also changes in one arc. He's a crybaby and by the end, he's a capable fighter who has overcome his fears.
Tenshinhan is introduced and changes all in one arc, same with Kuririn, same with Yamcha, same with Chaozu, same with even Piccolo to an extent.

Your assessment about Super being so different is off the mark.

Always been innovative? I mean, he had his moments, but throughout most of his childhood, his entire strategy was letting himself get beaten until he was sure that he can beat his opponent. And of course he had a similar personality, no one expects someone to come out an entirely different person. That's not what character development is. He does get progressively less ignorant, and it's blatantly obvious. That's why he doesn't spank peoples crotches or get confused over lipstick anymore.In fact, when's the last time he was confused over totally mundane behavior? Was it even in Dragon Ball Z? Your question about the Boo Arc doesn't make sense, because I literally just said that that arc didn't follow the trend.

I'm not thinking about this beforehand, so let's see if I can debunk this idea that character development is arc-dependant:

You already gave Vegeta and Roshi credit. Gohan's development covered the entirety of Z, even when it wasn't obvious. At the beginning, as you said, he was a no-good crybaby. By the end of the Saiyan Arc, he wasn't a very good fighter, but he had spouts of courage, determined to make sure that Piccolo didn't die in vain. In the Freeza Arc, Gohan lost most of the cowardice that plagued him beforehand. The only exceptions of this being when he was directly confronted by enemies that were lightyears ahead of him. In the Android Arc, Gohan takes more of a supporting role until Goku and he went into the room of spirit and time, but his personality remains largely the same as before. He's mild-mannered, yet capable of incredible feats when provoked. This, of course, leads into the Cell Games, where Gohan learns to fully embrace his anger, and ascends to heights that were unthinkable for the time. As for the Boo Arc, Gohan decides to focus more on his studies, but is made all too aware that he can't afford to slack off. He then has his power awakened, and... that's when Dragon Ball became a clusterfuck until the very end. Still, Gohan had been slowly developing throughout the whole beginning of Z, it just wan't put in the forefront. I don't know where you got that Tenshinhan only developed through one arc. Maybe you haven't watched in awhile? He had his initial shift in character during the 22nd Budokai, and his redemption was spread between Piccolo Daimao and ended in the 23rd Budokai, when it was revealed that he had far surpassed his former role model, Tao Pai Pai. Kuririn has some character shifts, but they're few and interspersed throughout the series. Yamcha was a joke from the beginning, so I'm reluctant to even have him a part of the conversation.

To be fair, you're mostly right about the rest of the characters, but most of the main cast did progress. In Super, there isn't any carry-over. Even character development that happens in one arc is liable to be forgotten in the next, as we saw with Gohan. Some characters have been totally re-written, like Videl, who is a hollow shell of a human being.

To be clear, I don't think that the old Dragon Ball was the pinnacle of perfect character writing, just that progression was actually present. Whereas in Super, any progreesion that does exist, which is miniscule in its own right, is ultimately inconsequential.

[ABED]

I already said he gets slightly smarter, but that's not quite what I'm referring to. I'm glad he doesn't need to pat people's crotches deep into the Buu arc, but that joke went away fairly quick. I'm talking more fundamental shifts.

but throughout most of his childhood, his entire strategy was letting himself get beaten until he was sure that he can beat his opponent

That's not true at all. He would constantly come up with strategies to defeat his opponents or odd techniques. He could even pick things up from his enemies on the fly. He wasn't like Homer Simpson and wait for his opponent to wear himself out. Where'd you get that idea?

Gohan - Not what I said, but okay. By the end, he was a competent fighter and finally overcame his fears to help defeat Vegeta. The character you see in the Freeza arc is a result of the Saiyan arc. In the Cell arc he doesn't learn to embrace his anger. He just explodes, it's an involuntary emotional explosion. His power grows, but his character remains either largely unchanged, or changed for the sake of the plot.

Tenshinhan's redemption and growth occurs in one arc. His actions and attitude in any preceeding arc aren't new, they are simply a follow through of his change at the end of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. I just recently rewatched the who series, and it wasn't revealed in the 23rd Budokai that he surpassed Tao Pai Pai. He had already surpassed him when we first meet him, otherwise he wouldn't have been any match for Goku.

You can't say he's the same character in the namek arc as he is in the boo arc. He's much more confident, is less dependent on his dad, goofier, persistent etc.

That's up for debate. He's very sure of himself in the Namek arc. It's only the Cell Games where he loses his confidence. And yeah, Goku's dead, so he shouldn't be dependent on him. I'll give you Gohan in the Buu arc, largely as a result of him being a teenager. He is goofier. I still stand by my point that most of the characters have one big moment of change as opposed to changing over the course of the series. Oddly enough, I think Chichi and of course Vegeta are the biggest exceptions.

This is really interesting, I'm gonna make this its own thread.

[Doctor.]

I think #17 vs Piccolo is a very overrated fight and #18 vs Vegeta is the best fight in the entire Cell arc.

[Soppa Saia People]

I think #17 vs Piccolo is a very overrated fight and #18 vs Vegeta is the best fight in the entire Cell arc.

That whole fight is powering up and gut punches

[Onibaku]

Goten > Trunks

[kinisking]

I think #17 vs Piccolo is a very overrated fight and #18 vs Vegeta is the best fight in the entire Cell arc.

18 Vs. Vegeta was so great. I like Vegeta but man he needed to come back to earth and it was such a great way of doing it.

[Bansho64]

18 Vs. Vegeta was so great. I like Vegeta but man he needed to come back to earth and it was such a great way of doing it.

I mainly love it because it, in my opinion, gave us one of the most painful screams in the franchise. Seriously, I'm 90% sure that Horikawa lost his lungs from that.

[Soppa Saia People]

I like GT more then the Cell saga. Also I like how GT uses Gohan. Treats him with more respect then Super.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Also I like how GT uses Gohan. Treats him with more respect then Super.

As in, not taunting us with him every couple of months? Because he's just as useless in both series'.

[8000 Saiyan]

I'm not a big fan of the second fight between Goku and King Piccolo. It's well drawn, but it just seems one-sided to me.

[Bansho64]

As in, not taunting us with him every couple of months? Because he's just as useless in both series'.

Oh yeah, definitely. But I gotta give GT some points because, even though he was possessed by Baby, it gave us a pretty goodbanimated scene with him in it. I also like his interaction with Piccolo when he dies.

Piccolo dying was pretty dumb but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel saddened at all by his interaction with Gohan before and during his demise.

[Soppa Saia People]

As in, not taunting us with him every couple of months? Because he's just as useless in both series'.

Oh yeah, definitely. But I gotta give GT some points because, even though he was possessed by Baby, it gave us a pretty cooly animated scenes with him in it. I also like his interaction with Piccolo when he dies.

Piccolo dying was pretty dumb but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel saddened at all by his interaction with Gohan before and during his demise.

Basically what I was gonna say.

[DBS916]

Pan's GT design is one of the best in the franchise.

I agree. The only difference I would make however would be to give her short, messy hair. Because I think the tomboyish look her mother had in Z would have been great on her as well.

[kinisking]

I like GT more then the Cell saga. Also I like how GT uses Gohan. Treats him with more respect then Super.

Gt more than the Cell saga is CRAZY but I agree with GT treating Gohan better.

[ekrolo2]

The U6 arc is just as meh as a great deal of GT.

[kinisking]

The Bog arc was good

The U6 arc is just as meh as a great deal of GT.

Speaking of this, I didn't like the Magetta fight that much. Decent animation but not a lot of actual fighting happened when you think about it.