"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...when has Toei added an entire subplot that connects or is key to the main story?

Goku falling into hell, orphans, Fake Namek, Bulma Filler on Namek, Bardock, Part of the "History of Trunks", Dragon Ball GT, Tagoma, Frost.

[ekrolo2]

Goku vs Black R1, while a really cool fight, would've been kept in the manga if Toriyama explicitly wanted it there. If he didn't write it in his outline that Black & Goku fight but rather that Goku gets an idea for Black's strength just from sparring with Trunks, then its absence in Toyotaro's version shouldn't come as a surprise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You keep saying the anime make changes to the outline. What are these changes?

Can't say for sure, since I don't have the outline. But we can all tell if Toei have added their own original ideas. Things like Kaio-ken SSB & SS2 Goku vs Black can't be in the outline, since they are in the anime and not in the manga. Whatever is manga-only may or may not be from Toriyama (we can't know without the outline), whatever is anime-only is definitely from Toei, and whatever is in both manga & anime is most likely from Toriyama (we are told that Toei & Toyotaro use each other as reference sometimes, so we can't know if something is definitely from Toriyama).

[HeroR]

...when has Toei added an entire subplot that connects or is key to the main story?

Goku falling into hell, orphans, Fake Namek, Bulma Filler on Namek, Bardock, Part of the "History of Trunks", Dragon Ball GT, Tagoma, Frost.

That changes the core part of the story, not just add or expand events. Read the bolded.

Dragon Ball GT is Toei's own product and plot, so that wouldn't count. Bardock was made by Toei and adapted by Toriyama. They didn't changed events from the manga to create Bardock.

And what did they charge about Frost from Toriyama's outline?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Can't say for sure, since I don't have the outline. But we can all tell if Toei have added their own original ideas. Things like Kaio-ken SSB & SS2 Goku vs Black can't be in the outline, since they are in the anime and not in the manga. Whatever is manga-only may or may not be from Toriyama (we can't know without the outline), whatever is anime-only is definitely from Toei, and whatever is in both manga & anime is most likely from Toriyama (we are told that Toei & Toyotaro use each other as reference sometimes, so we can't know if something is definitely from Toriyama).

Exactly this. It's a simple exercise in deductive reasoning.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Also don't see how Goku vs Black R1 is a Toei addition. It's fine nobody was complaining when that episode air. Feel like too many people treat the Manga like a bible here. Just cuz it wasn't in there doesn't mean it was a Toei idea.

Toyotaro said that he doesn't cut anything from Toriyama's outline, so if something isn't in the manga, it's a Toei idea (but that doesn't mean that everything from the manga is from Toriyama of course).

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing? Prior to the Manga releasing it's second chapter folks were wondering how Toyo will handle the fight and would Goku go SSG etc but now the Manga has skipped over it and people are now like it should have cut from the anime too despite not having that complaint when that episode aired.

Toyo says he doesn't deviate from the major plot points of Toriyama's outline. Major being subjective to him he might not feel like Goku scuffing with Black for a few seconds is worth it especially on a monthly schedule and not waste time and rather have them go kart race. So it's not 100% what's in the original draft and what's not. We won't ever know until it's released for Herms to translate.

[HeroR]

You keep saying the anime make changes to the outline. What are these changes?

Can't say for sure, since I don't have the outline. But we can all tell if Toei have added their own original ideas. Things like Kaio-ken SSB & SS2 Goku vs Black can't be in the outline, since they are in the anime and not in the manga. Whatever is manga-only may or may not be from Toriyama (we can't know without the outline), whatever is anime-only is definitely from Toei, and whatever is in both manga & anime is most likely from Toriyama (we are told that Toei & Toyotaro use each other as reference sometimes, so we can't know if something is definitely from Toriyama).

That isn't changing the outline as you claim. That is added their take on the story, just like the manga having Super Saiyan God. And you can say Black vs. Goku wasn't in the outline based on the manga not having it, since Toriyama's statements supports weirdness with time while seems to using the time rules we know.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing?

An idea coming from Toei doesn't make it inherently bad. It's just that, more often than not, Toei's additions and are mundane and/or nonsensical.

[HeroR]

Also don't see how Goku vs Black R1 is a Toei addition. It's fine nobody was complaining when that episode air. Feel like too many people treat the Manga like a bible here. Just cuz it wasn't in there doesn't mean it was a Toei idea.

Toyotaro said that he doesn't cut anything from Toriyama's outline, so if something isn't in the manga, it's a Toei idea (but that doesn't mean that everything from the manga is from Toriyama of course).

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing? Prior to the Manga releasing it's second chapter folks were wondering how Toyo will handle the fight and would Goku go SSG etc but now the Manga has skipped over it and people are now like it should have cut from the anime too despite not having that complaint when that episode aired.

Toyo says he doesn't deviate from the major plot points of Toriyama's outline. Major being subjective to him he might not feel like Goku scuffing with Black for a few seconds is worth it especially on a monthly schedule and not waste time and rather have them go kart race. So it's not 100% what's in the original draft and what's not. We won't ever know until it's released for Herms to translate.

Exactly. The first round with Black and Goku can easily be in the outline along with Goku meeting and fighting Zamasu, creating the loop. The manga cut it to save time and rewrote things so A,B, and C still happened. So it's the same story at its core, but condense. Like the Harry Potter don't diverge from the main story of the books or the key plot points, but different things happened to get the same results.

[ekrolo2]

Exactly. The first round with Black and Goku can easily be in the outline along with Goku meeting and fighting Zamasu, creating the loop. The manga cut it to save time and rewrote things so A,B, and C still happened. So it's the same story at its core, but condense. Like the Harry Potter don't diverge from the main story of the books or the key plot points, but different things happened to get the same results.

The bolded part you're using goes against your very point. If Toriyama wrote "Goku fights Black in the present after sparring with Trunks!" Toyotaro would have cut down on other things like the kart racing or his expanded Future Boo arc stuff to accommodate its inclusion. Since its not there, its not in the outline.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing?

When did I ever say it's a bad thing? I love both Kaio-ken SSB and SS2 Goku vs Black.

Toyo says he doesn't deviate from the major plot points of Toriyama's outline. Major being subjective to him he might not feel like Goku scuffing with Black for a few seconds is worth it especially on a monthly schedule and not waste time and rather have them go kart race. So it's not 100% what's in the original draft and what's not. We won't ever know until it's released for Herms to translate.

The way Toyotaro describes it, it doesn't sound like he removes anything.

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.

What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.

He makes no mention about cutting things because he doesn't have time.

That isn't changing the outline as you claim. That is added their take on the story, just like the manga having Super Saiyan God. And you can say Black vs. Goku wasn't in the outline based on the manga not having it, since Toriyama's statements supports weirdness with time while seems to using the time rules we know.

We don't know what changes Toei make, but we know they do make changes. And it is not me that is claiming such a thing, Toriyama himself said that.

Also, we don't know if Super Saiyan God is an addition from Toyotaro. For all we know, Toei may have removed it just like they did in the climax of Goku vs Beerus for the BoG arc.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing?

An idea coming from Toei doesn't make it inherently bad. It's just that, more often than not, Toei's additions and are mundane and/or nonsensical.

Had the Go karting happened in the anime the reaction would not have been the same.

Exactly. The first round with Black and Goku can easily be in the outline along with Goku meeting and fighting Zamasu, creating the loop. The manga cut it to save time and rewrote things so A,B, and C still happened. So it's the same story at its core, but condense. Like the Harry Potter don't diverge from the main story of the books or the key plot points, but different things happened to get the same results.

The bolded part you're using goes against your very point. If Toriyama wrote "Goku fights Black in the present after sparring with Trunks!" Toyotaro would have cut down on other things like the kart racing or his expanded Future Boo arc stuff to accommodate its inclusion. Since its not there, its not in the outline.

Like I said Toyo probably thought he'd save the Goku vs Black confronting and have a friendly game of Mario Kart instead. That's an entirely possibility too.

[HeroR]

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing?

When did I ever say it's a bad thing? I love both Kaio-ken SSB and SS2 Goku vs Black.

Toyo says he doesn't deviate from the major plot points of Toriyama's outline. Major being subjective to him he might not feel like Goku scuffing with Black for a few seconds is worth it especially on a monthly schedule and not waste time and rather have them go kart race. So it's not 100% what's in the original draft and what's not. We won't ever know until it's released for Herms to translate.

The way Toyotaro describes it, it doesn't sound like he removes anything.

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.

What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.

He makes no mention about cutting things because he doesn't have time.

That isn't changing the outline as you claim. That is added their take on the story, just like the manga having Super Saiyan God. And you can say Black vs. Goku wasn't in the outline based on the manga not having it, since Toriyama's statements supports weirdness with time while seems to using the time rules we know.

We don't know what changes Toei make, but we know they do make changes. And it is not me that is claiming such a thing, Toriyama himself said that.

Also, we don't know if Super Saiyan God is an addition from Toyotaro. For all we know, Toei may have removed it just like they did in the climax of Goku vs Beerus for the BoG arc.

Right. They removed something from the outline when Toriyama said that Goku didn't need that form anymore since Goku absorbed its power and the movie he wrote even said Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God.

Toriyama said that makes additions, not outright changes. Especially when all Toyo said was that he doesn't charge key points. For example, Toyo wasn't going to have Goku beat Hit.

[HeroR]

Exactly. The first round with Black and Goku can easily be in the outline along with Goku meeting and fighting Zamasu, creating the loop. The manga cut it to save time and rewrote things so A,B, and C still happened. So it's the same story at its core, but condense. Like the Harry Potter don't diverge from the main story of the books or the key plot points, but different things happened to get the same results.

The bolded part you're using goes against your very point. If Toriyama wrote "Goku fights Black in the present after sparring with Trunks!" Toyotaro would have cut down on other things like the kart racing or his expanded Future Boo arc stuff to accommodate its inclusion. Since its not there, its not in the outline.

He saves time since by skipping the entire first fight with Goku and Black since he doesn't have to write about Goku meeting Zamasu, fighting him, or Beerus and Whis' investigating. He easily saved himself one or two chapters, and he basically get the same basic story.

Why he chose to expand the Future Majin story, probably to be different from the anime and. because he likes Trunks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Right. They removed something from the outline when Toriyama said that Goku didn't need that form anymore since Goku absorbed its power and the movie he wrote even said Goku asborded Super Saiyan God.

That's the movie you are talking about. Toyotaro obviously removed a lot of things from there, and the process he is describing for the manga obviously doesn't apply to the movies (he entirely removed the other one and turned it into a few narrator boxes).

Toriyama said that makes additions, not outright changes.

No, he said Toei make changes as well.

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

Especially when all Toyo said was that he doesn't charge key points. For example, Toyo wasn't going to have Goku beat Hit.

Toyotaro described the the process he is making the manga, and made no mention of any changes. He only talked about adding things.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Toriyama said that makes additions, not outright changes. Especially when all Toyo said was that he doesn't charge key points. For example, Toyo wasn't going to have Goku beat Hit.

Yeah to Toyo that may constitute as a major plot point but not SSGSSKK (if that was in the outline.) To him he might not see that as important because it isn't exactly a new form so it's interesting to see what happens with Trunks could that the moment he was talking about that was different between all of three?

[HeroR]

Right. They removed something from the outline when Toriyama said that Goku didn't need that form anymore since Goku absorbed its power and the movie he wrote even said Goku asborded Super Saiyan God.

That's the movie you are talking about. Toyotaro obviously removed a lot of things from there, and the process he is describing for the manga obviously doesn't apply to the movies (he entirely removed the other one and turned it into a few narrator boxes).

Toriyama said that makes additions, not outright changes.

No, he said Toei make changes as well.

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

Especially when all Toyo said was that he doesn't charge key points. For example, Toyo wasn't going to have Goku beat Hit.

Toyotaro described the the process he is making the manga, and made no mention of any changes. He only talked about adding things.

Change things around can easily mean the order of things so the story flows better. Not removing items like Goku going Super Saiyan God against Hit and doing Kaioken instead because of reasons or key plot points or adding an entire subplot. Toei wasn't going to write a Time paradox if given a choice.

Toyo only said he doesn't charge key plot points. He never said he didn't charge anything. And he's not changing the story by cutting parts he thinks are unneeded if he can still get to A to B.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Change things around can easily mean the order of things so the story flows better. Not removing items like Goku going Super Saiyan God against Hit and doing Kaioken instead because of reasons or key plot points or adding an entire subplot.

That's a very selective interpretation, to the point where it's borderline dishonest.

Toei wasn't going to write a Time paradox if given a choice.

...and this is uninformed drivel. You have no idea what they would and wouldn't do. These writers aren't superhuman. In fact, they've put out mediocre script after mediocre script for this whole series. I can think of maybe a dozen episodes of DBS who's script I don't have a problem with.

[Cipher]

While that maybe true, why does something being a Toei idea make it bad thing? Prior to the Manga releasing it's second chapter folks were wondering how Toyo will handle the fight and would Goku go SSG etc but now the Manga has skipped over it and people are now like it should have cut from the anime too despite not having that complaint when that episode aired.

Toyo says he doesn't deviate from the major plot points of Toriyama's outline. Major being subjective to him he might not feel like Goku scuffing with Black for a few seconds is worth it especially on a monthly schedule and not waste time and rather have them go kart race. So it's not 100% what's in the original draft and what's not. We won't ever know until it's released for Herms to translate.

I'm with Baggie here. Toyotarou's on a pretty tight schedule with the manga, and I doubt Toriyama is writing outlines specifically to accommodate the pace the manga requires to keep in relative synch with the anime. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that elements are cut or rearranged to accommodate that speed, though obviously he isn't changing the direction of the arc as a whole.

In cases where there's a major difference in the way an individual scene is handled -- ex. Hit vs. Goku in the anime vs. the manga -- I think it becomes reasonable to conclude that a major difference on Toei's end like the Kaio Ken wasn't something stipulated in the original outline. But as far as how they handle getting from one event to the other, especially with the manga behind again, it seems like anyone's guess.

Had the Go karting happened in the anime the reaction would not have been the same.

This I disagree with. Or, I disagree that reaction wouldn't have been the same if the execution were as funny. The issue most have with Super's comedy is that Toei's tended to run jokes into the ground, or just go for ones that aren't that amusing in the first place. The manga (either because Toyotarou has a better lock on this, or because of Toriyama's oversight) has a better, more Toriyama-esque comedic timing than we usually get in the show.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'm with Baggie here. Toyotarou's on a pretty tight schedule with the manga, and I doubt Toriyama is writing outlines specifically to accommodate the pace the manga requires to keep in relative synch with the anime. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that elements are cut or rearranged to accommodate that speed, though obviously he isn't changing the direction of the arc as a whole.

Last month, I would have agreed wholeheartedly. However, since most of the last chapter was padding, I think we can assume that Toyotaro has more wiggle-room than we've been thinking.