Was Gohan's absence a big miss in the current arc?

[Cipher]

I'd say you're only half right there. Yes, the ending of the episode is to show that Gohan is happy (and that Trunks yearns for the same peaceful life) but the execution and tone of that episode was undeniably played for comedy with Gohan's portrayal being that of a silly/nerdy guy to juxtapose his future counterpart (and a lesser extent his Cell games self). Now that isn't a bad thing in and of itself but the problem is that none of this leads anywhere for Gohan's character to develop, he's basically written off to do his own thing after this so the lasting impression we're left with is just that, an irredeemable nerdy guy who we can no longer depend on.

It has a comedic tone in some spots, and no doubt there is some attempt to play up the difference between Trunks' expectations and Gohan's silly domestic life with superhero antis and Mr. Satan as his father-in-law, but there's absolutely nothing to imply we're supposed to find this "irredeemable" or compare it negatively to his life as a fighter. In fact, Trunks flies away thanking Gohan for giving him hope and projecting what his happy, domestic life with his mother and Mai could have looked like. That's what he wanted and would have had if Black hadn't interrupted.

Goku and Vegeta are fighting maniacs and already willing to help him. He doesn't come to Gohan out of desperation and get let down. The takeaway in that episode is wildly different from what you're describing.

Also, it isn't a Gohan character episode. It's a Trunks one.

[NitroEX]

It has a comedic tone in some spots, and no doubt there is some attempt to play up the difference between Trunks' expectations and Gohan's silly domestic life with superhero antis and Mr. Satan as his father-in-law, but there's absolutely nothing to imply we're supposed to find this "irredeemable" or compare it negatively to his life as a fighter. In fact, Trunks flies away thanking Gohan for giving him hope and projecting what his happy, domestic life with his mother and Mai could have looked like. That's what he wanted and would have had if Black hadn't interrupted.

Goku and Vegeta are fighting maniacs and already willing to help him. He doesn't come to Gohan out of desperation and get let down. The takeaway in that episode is wildly different from what you're describing.

Also, it isn't a Gohan character episode. It's a Trunks one.

I feel as though you're fixated with this particular episode rather than seeing the bigger picture I'm trying to paint. Gohan's appearances in Super have, by and large, had a noticeable recurring theme (at least to me) of disappointment. Putting aside the happy comedic stuff he's basically been portrayed as a guy failing to get the job done time and time again, in the case of the bigger fights this is also dwelled on in a dramatic way, almost to say "this guys about to do something cool... oh, wait, nevermind... He just fell flat on his face again". All of these failures eventually add up from a viewer's perspective to the point where no one has any confidence in that character anymore and the mockery that we see outside of battle only serves to add salt to the wound.

When you give a character no moments of triumph to redeem themselves, you aren't allowing any good to counterbalance the bad. This inevitably leads to what I would describe as an irredeemable character similar to yamcha. It's not just that one episode, that's just an example of the writers adding to a problem that they themselves have caused.

You also have to keep in mind how much of a fall from grace this is, Gohan was once right up there next to Goku and Vegeta in terms of importance in the manga. For a Saiyan character of his reputation and power to be reduced to the fodder that he now is is a pretty significant demotion. Piccolo is also admittedly treated poorly here too however due to his diminished role in the Buu arc it's less noticeable here than it is with Gohan.

I mean, do you not see how counterproductive it is from a story (and business) perspective to essentially flush all the progress Gohan made in the manga's story? Demoting one of the few useful Saiyan characters the story has left seems like nothing but an asinine move in my view.

[Cipher]

I feel as though you're fixated with this particular episode rather than seeing the bigger picture I'm trying to paint.

I said in my first post Gohan's transition hasn't been handled gracefully in Super and was better left to a timeskip. You structured your post around that particular episode, though, which I thought offered a completely different takeaway than your reading.

[NitroEX]

Goku and Vegeta are fighting maniacs and already willing to help him. He doesn't come to Gohan out of desperation and get let down. The takeaway in that episode is wildly different from what you're describing.

Also, it isn't a Gohan character episode. It's a Trunks one.

I didn't imply either of these was the case though I suppose my bit about not being able to depend on Gohan might be taken that way. I meant it from an audience perspective and having confidence in a character.

I mentioned in my response to VegettoEX that I understood what the point of the episode was. I don't really think that little moment at the end does much to improve the overall damage to Gohan's character though. The goofy portrayal still leaves more of a lasting impression in my opinion. That's not to say goofiness is always bad, it's just when you factor in everything else so far it's salt in the wound, as I mentioned.

I said in my first post Gohan's transition hasn't been handled gracefully in Super and was better left to a timeskip. You structured your post around that particular episode, though, which I thought offered a completely different takeaway than your reading.

Well yeah but that's because I was called out on it. I wanted to clarify more on it but in hindsight I probably shouldn't have used that example to begin with.

[Soppa Saia People]

No, Gohan is a useless, waste of a character at this point and Toei and Toriyama have made the right decision in retiring him. Too late to fix his flaws.

You do know Gohan is a fictional character and Toriyama and/or Toei can write him a different way ?

[precita]

The reason people take out their dislike toward Gohan is because he has the ideal life anyone would want in real life but he's in a shonen fighting anime and is expected to be an action oriented person.

If you were in your 20's, married to a girl who loves you, has a daughter, works as a scholar/teacher, and probably makes a good salary, as well as is now related to one of the most famous people on Earth (Mr. Satan), and has a father who is THE most powerful guy on Earth (Goku), you'd be happy too.

Gohan represents wish fullfilment, so when people feel they don't have what Gohan has in real life, they take out their disdain toward the character.

[Doctor.]

No, Gohan is a useless, waste of a character at this point and Toei and Toriyama have made the right decision in retiring him. Too late to fix his flaws.

You do know Gohan is a fictional character and Toriyama and/or Toei can write him a different way ?

Yes? And I'm saying that, at this point, he's a waste of a character and it's way too late to try to fix his flaws. Just leave him alone.

[ekrolo2]

No, Gohan is a useless, waste of a character at this point and Toei and Toriyama have made the right decision in retiring him. Too late to fix his flaws.

You do know Gohan is a fictional character and Toriyama and/or Toei can write him a different way ?

Yes? And I'm saying that, at this point, he's a waste of a character and it's way too late to try to fix his flaws. Just leave him alone.

Ditto, he's shit tier and should remain there. The only time Gohan became close to something interesting is when he tries to reason with Cell but nothing comes of that trait of him realizing "Hrm, the rules of our universe are kind of fucked up guys!".

[Soppa Saia People]

No, Gohan is a useless, waste of a character at this point and Toei and Toriyama have made the right decision in retiring him. Too late to fix his flaws.

You do know Gohan is a fictional character and Toriyama and/or Toei can write him a different way ?

Yes? And I'm saying that, at this point, he's a waste of a character and it's way too late to try to fix his flaws. Just leave him alone.

I respectfully disagree, have a good day, I don't feel I have much more to say.
(Plus my phone is at 2 percent and I don't have my laptop or kindle on me)

[precita]

You do know Gohan is a fictional character and Toriyama and/or Toei can write him a different way ?

Yes? And I'm saying that, at this point, he's a waste of a character and it's way too late to try to fix his flaws. Just leave him alone.

Ditto, he's shit tier and should remain there. The only time Gohan became close to something interesting is when he tries to reason with Cell but nothing comes of that trait of him realizing "Hrm, the rules of our universe are kind of fucked up guys!".

Gohan has a great character, backstory, role, etc. Its nice to also have a Saiyan not as one track minded as Goku and Vegeta

[ekrolo2]

Gohan has a great character, backstory, role, etc. Its nice to also have a Saiyan not as one track minded as Goku and Vegeta

Gohan's role is basically "Grrr! I'm angry *does something cool that doesn't do crap by the end*". His deviation from his dad and Vegeta is also constantly treated/used to make him look like a joke and a moron, because if you're not a fighting junkie, you're worthless shit tier.

The only Gohan who's actually interesting is the one to ask Cell to stop this and how its kind of fucked up to get off on beating the crap out of somebody else. If Toriyama followed through with this, you would have a multifaceted Gohan. One who relaxes and reads in his down time isn't afraid to fight when necessary but since he's gotten genre savvy, you can have him reason with an enemy to stop the fight before it can begin or make him a more pragmatic character who just ends things before they escalate. That last one would have been particularly good after Goku died because he dicked around too much. Nothing comes of this though, leaving Gohan in his usual worthless shit tier character position.

[Lord Beerus]

No. I really don't see much merit in bringing Gohan back into the fold. I mean, what can he really contribute at this stage? Toei and Toriyama are pretty much fixated on benching him because they really don't know what to do with the character, and I can't really blame them for that. Toriyama's mindset by the end of the original story was that Gohan retired from fighting to support his family and Super is working by the means of basically leading up to that point in the story for the character. So naturally he wouldn't be really involved in any major arcs for the show. But who knows... that could all change.

[precita]

Gohan will be back. They'll want to market more Super Saiyan Blue characters in the future, hence why we're seeing Vegito.

Gohan is the only real logical character to do it with next.

[kinisking]

Yes. Gohan and FT interactions have always been a pretty big miss. Gohan black would have had much more of a psychological effect on Trunks, helped motivate Gohan to train, and would explain why Black has such a high potential ceiling.

Gohan's role is basically "Grrr! I'm angry *does something cool that doesn't do crap by the end*". His deviation from his dad and Vegeta is also constantly treated/used to make him look like a joke and a moron, because if you're not a fighting junkie, you're worthless shit tier.

The only Gohan who's actually interesting is the one to ask Cell to stop this and how its kind of fucked up to get off on beating the crap out of somebody else. If Toriyama followed through with this, you would have a multifaceted Gohan. One who relaxes and reads in his down time isn't afraid to fight when necessary but since he's gotten genre savvy, you can have him reason with an enemy to stop the fight before it can begin or make him a more pragmatic character who just ends things before they escalate. That last one would have been particularly good after Goku died because he dicked around too much. Nothing comes of this though, leaving Gohan in his usual worthless shit tier character position.

Gohan beating cell was definitely doing crap. Gohan also most certainly helped against Vegeta, android 20, and Freeza. Just because he didn't beat them doesn't mean he didn't help. Without him, things would've gone much worse against Vegeta and Freeza, Piccolo's energy would have been drained by android 20 also. In Rof, he saved Krillin and beat shisami quickly just like you wanted. In Super he tried talking Shisami out and beat Tagoma quickly which is again just like you wanted. Also, many of the characters in dragonball "don't do crap" so how is that a negative for Gohan?

[ekrolo2]

Gohan beating cell was definitely doing crap. Gohan also most certainly helped against Vegeta, android 20, and Freeza. Just because he didn't beat them doesn't mean he didn't help. Without him, things would've gone much worse against Vegeta and Freeza, Piccolo's energy would have been drained by android 20 also. Also, many of the characters in dragonball "don't do crap" so how is that a negative for Gohan?

Gohan's entire role in the show is to get pissed off, do something cool that ultimately accomplishes nothing. His big contribution against Vegeta is turning into an Oozaru which was a lucky fluke and not anything of his own doing, his rage boosts do nothing of consequence to Freeza and Vegeta would have killed 20 even if he drained Piccolo. His victory against Cell turned into a disaster because he got cocky and fucked around, needing his daddy to come back and save him from just outright quitting and the Boo arc did much the same.

Putting aside all of this, he's just a nothing character. His love of studying is more often than not frowned upon, as is his reluctance to fight and his implied genre savviness during his conversation with Cell as to how this is all kind of fucked up goes nowhere because he just gets pissed off, doing something momentarily cool that accomplishes nothing. The series never capitalized on these various traits of Gohan that I mentioned from his Cell convo to make him his own character, he's either worthless shit tier, or a cocky failed replacement for Goku. That's not really doing the guy many favors.

[namekiansaiyan]

Gohan is not going to sit out for the entire 100+ span or whatever Super goes on for. He's definitely going to get an arc eventually. I have no idea why people think otherwise.

No reason for him to return at all. Gohan has to be the strongest or is useless.

The reason people take out their dislike toward Gohan is because he has the ideal life anyone would want in real life but he's in a shonen fighting anime and is expected to be an action oriented person.

If you were in your 20's, married to a girl who loves you, has a daughter, works as a scholar/teacher, and probably makes a good salary, as well as is now related to one of the most famous people on Earth (Mr. Satan), and has a father who is THE most powerful guy on Earth (Goku), you'd be happy too.

Gohan represents wish fullfilment, so when people feel they don't have what Gohan has in real life, they take out their disdain toward the character.

Why would you want a 'normal' character in Dragonball.

Yes. Gohan and FT interactions have always been a pretty big miss. Gohan black would have had much more of a psychological effect on Trunks, helped motivate Gohan to train, and would explain why Black has such a high potential ceiling.

Gohan's role is basically "Grrr! I'm angry *does something cool that doesn't do crap by the end*". His deviation from his dad and Vegeta is also constantly treated/used to make him look like a joke and a moron, because if you're not a fighting junkie, you're worthless shit tier.

The only Gohan who's actually interesting is the one to ask Cell to stop this and how its kind of fucked up to get off on beating the crap out of somebody else. If Toriyama followed through with this, you would have a multifaceted Gohan. One who relaxes and reads in his down time isn't afraid to fight when necessary but since he's gotten genre savvy, you can have him reason with an enemy to stop the fight before it can begin or make him a more pragmatic character who just ends things before they escalate. That last one would have been particularly good after Goku died because he dicked around too much. Nothing comes of this though, leaving Gohan in his usual worthless shit tier character position.

Gohan beating cell was definitely doing crap. Gohan also most certainly helped against Vegeta, android 20, and Freeza. Just because he didn't beat them doesn't mean he didn't help. Without him, things would've gone much worse against Vegeta and Freeza, Piccolo's energy would have been drained by android 20 also. Also, many of the characters in dragonball "don't do crap" so how is that a negative for Gohan?

What Present Gohan and Future Trunks interaction.

[kinisking]

Gohan beating cell was definitely doing crap. Gohan also most certainly helped against Vegeta, android 20, and Freeza. Just because he didn't beat them doesn't mean he didn't help. Without him, things would've gone much worse against Vegeta and Freeza, Piccolo's energy would have been drained by android 20 also. Also, many of the characters in dragonball "don't do crap" so how is that a negative for Gohan?

Gohan's entire role in the show is to get pissed off, do something cool that ultimately accomplishes nothing. His big contribution against Vegeta is turning into an Oozaru which was a lucky fluke and not anything of his own doing, his rage boosts do nothing of consequence to Freeza and Vegeta would have killed 20 even if he drained Piccolo. His victory against Cell turned into a disaster because he got cocky and fucked around, needing his daddy to come back and save him from just outright quitting and the Boo arc did much the same.

Putting aside all of this, he's just a nothing character. His love of studying is more often than not frowned upon, as is his reluctance to fight and his implied genre savviness during his conversation with Cell as to how this is all kind of fucked up goes nowhere because he just gets pissed off, doing something momentarily cool that accomplishes nothing. The series never capitalized on these various traits of Gohan that I mentioned from his Cell convo to make him his own character, he's either worthless shit tier, or a cocky failed replacement for Goku. That's not really doing the guy many favors.

I don't think you saw my edited version. In Rof, he saved Krillin and beat shisami quickly just like you wanted. In Super he tried talking Shisami out and beat Tagoma quickly which is again just like you wanted.

Saying Gohan did nothing is just simply wrong though. Gohan WAS the reason why him and Krillin went back for Goku. If that didn't happen Goku would have died along with everyone else. Gohan held Vegeta off for krillin also.

Regardless of him fucking up, Cell would not have been able to beaten without him.

Also, like others said it all depends on the writers. He didn't get overly cocky in either versions of ROF. It's not his fault that Freeza was that much stronger. If they want him to succeed he will, if they want him to fail he will. It's not like his character is inherently a fuckup that can't be changed.

Also, like I said many of the characters tend to do "nothing" in dragonball so I don't know why Gohan is under fire for it.

[ekrolo2]

Also, like others said it all depends on the writers. He didn't get overly cocky in either versions of ROF. It's not his fault that Freeza was that much stronger. If they want him to succeed he will, if they want him to fail he will. It's not like his character is inherently a fuckup that can't be changed.

I was gonna mention Super showing shades of this through him trying to reason with Shisami and opting to let Ginyu go. The problem also isn't that Gohan is a broken character, far from it, of all the tossed aside characters he's got the most chance of making an actual comeback. Where the issue lies in how he can only ever be treated as a cool but fruitless moment generator or worthless shit tier.

No one, especially not Toriyama, is willing to take a step back and say "How about we try something different with him for a change?". Well, there probably is someone who's said that at one point or another but those people get thrown into Toei's underground dungeon where everyone with the beginnings of a fucking clue goes to die.

[kinisking]

Also, like others said it all depends on the writers. He didn't get overly cocky in either versions of ROF. It's not his fault that Freeza was that much stronger. If they want him to succeed he will, if they want him to fail he will. It's not like his character is inherently a fuckup that can't be changed.

I was gonna mention Super showing shades of this through him trying to reason with Shisami and opting to let Ginyu go. The problem also isn't that Gohan is a broken character, far from it, of all the tossed aside characters he's got the most chance of making an actual comeback. Where the issue lies in how he can only ever be treated as a cool but fruitless moment generator or worthless shit tier.

No one, especially not Toriyama, is willing to take a step back and say "How about we try something different with him for a change?". Well, there probably is someone who's said that at one point or another but those people get thrown into Toei's underground dungeon where everyone with the beginnings of a fucking clue goes to die.

Okay, I can see your point more now. I'll try to be optimistic and hope that in the unlikely chance he does become more relevant that he does get some more shining moments though.

I don't understand why he gets so much flack for his losses but when Vegeta, Piccolo or anyone else mess up it's the writers fault. I mean what has Piccolo actually done throughout the series

[ekrolo2]

Okay, I can see your point more now. I'll try to be optimistic and hope that in the unlikely chance he does become more relevant that he does get some more shining moments though.

I don't understand why he gets so much flack for his losses but when Vegeta, Piccolo or anyone else mess up it's the writers fault. I mean what has Piccolo actually done throughout the series

With Vegeta, I get cathartic pleasure in seeing him get cocky and then have his ass kicked for it. It's what makes the boring island fights in the Android arc against Cell somewhat entertaining for me. Although given how it's everyone's fault for this situation happening, I get a kick out of all the good guys getting some much deserved karmic retribution.

Vegeta also has a fairly good arc for a lot of the show and is one of the few characters to get multiple moments of apparent change rather than one and staying static for the remainder of the series. Gohan being constantly flip-flopped from worthless shit tier to failed Goku replacement doesn't do him many favors, although, Vegeta's recent retconning into being obsessed with Goku is an issue for that character as well.

And speaking as a Piccolo fan, he doesn't do jack shit after the Namek arc. It's actually comical how the only time his character makes a more personal impact on those around him or the audience is when he dies

Zeon put it best: Piccolo is Worf. He shows up, he looks cool, does some cool shit and then fails miserably. He and all of the Earthling characters with the exception of Krillin very easily could have stayed dead and I don't think we'd have lost anything of actual substance. He really has no more moments of evolution or change, even his re-uniting with Kami is little more than a temporary boost in power more than anything else.