Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Even if we ignore the Daizenshuu, Freeza claimed he was curb stomping Goku with only a third of his power, so 50% was overkill. He also blocked a 20x Kaioken with his hand and only got some burn marks. You are also ignoring that Goku said that about full power Freeza. So Freeza didn't need to use half of his power to beat up Goku, and Beerus didn't need 10% to beat up Vegeta since Vegeta didn't hurt Beerus in Super.

Setup to be stronger, doesn't mean vastly stronger. The vast part being part of the fandom head canon for over twenty years.

Beerus called Goku no challenged after everything was said and done. He probably could have beating Goku with less than 70% since Goku never had the advantage once during the battle. And Whis said they may have a chance against Beerus, not that they would actually win. Big different.

You're the one who thinks that Beerus needed 10% to beat up Vegeta when he was raging, when nothing of the sort was seen since Vegeta performed worse in Super compared to his movie counterpart who made Beerus bleed.

Freeza's third power comment isn't in the manga and he even "comforts" Goku that he isn't going to kill him just like that as it would be unsatisfying, basically confirming what I said: he's giving off more power than necessary to psychologically terrify his enemies.

Beerus doesn't do that, in the BoG film where Goku is worth about 60% of his power, Beerus uses 70% to take him down, why? Because he wants a good fight but also to win it, this small gap allows Beerus to have this good fight without the fear of actual injury or even death. That's even the reason he doesn't smash Rageta in either versions is he wants to see what Vegeta is capable of and what is he capable of? 10% of his Beerus' strength in the Super version.

Considering the fact Vegetto needed Super Saiyan to beat Boohan, he's most definitely not vastly stronger but the boost HAS to be hefty for two guys who are inferior to Namek Freeza to shoot past Gohan absorbed Super Boo with just Super Saiyan. And it's implied Vegetto isn't even using all of his SS power to do so.

[apex_pretador]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

Super Saiyan God Goku nearly destroyed the universe by accidentally along with Beerus. And using the Earth lack of damage is really dumb since in that case, Freeza is the most powerful character next to Beerus.

SSG Goku was unable to balance "beerus's power" and that's why universe was threatened, clearly because of beerus's power, not gokus.

You can't just use the "balance" logic in golden freeza vs goku or Black vs anyone battle, like the villains even cared about balance.

[apex_pretador]

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

Nah, that weakness is him fusion in SSB state. Remember Old kaioshin said that Super Saiyan would be too hard on the body? That's what vegetto weill be suffering.

[HeroR]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

Super Saiyan God Goku nearly destroyed the universe by accidentally along with Beerus. And using the Earth lack of damage is really dumb since in that case, Freeza is the most powerful character next to Beerus.

SSG Goku was unable to balance "beerus's power" and that's why universe was threatened, clearly because of beerus's power, not gokus.

You can't just use the "balance" logic in golden freeza vs goku or Black vs anyone battle, like the villains even cared about balance.

It was both of them together since Beerus wasn't trying to balance himself at all. Goku had to cancel out his attacks. And again, if we used how much damaged the planet suffers as a benchmark for power, Freeza in his first form is one of the strongest character in the series, stronger than all his other forms in fact, since he destroyed a planet 10x the size of Earth with his index finger.

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

Nah, that weakness is him fusion in SSB state. Remember Old kaioshin said that Super Saiyan would be too hard on the body? That's what vegetto weill be suffering.

We see Vegetto in his base form before transforming, so he wasn't a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

Nah, that weakness is him fusion in SSB state. Remember Old kaioshin said that Super Saiyan would be too hard on the body? That's what vegetto weill be suffering.

He said that fusing while they're already SSJs would be too stressful as they would be unable to power down, here Vegetto starts out in base so I don't think that's the problem.

[pacz360]

Beerus can destroy universe.

Godku, Vegeta, Vegetto, zamasu, black, all combined were unable to cause any direct threat to even earth (plot armor but still) and DEFINITELY universe.

Super Saiyan God Goku nearly destroyed the universe by accidentally along with Beerus. And using the Earth lack of damage is really dumb since in that case, Freeza is the most powerful character next to Beerus.

SSG Goku was unable to balance "beerus's power" and that's why universe was threatened, clearly because of beerus's power, not gokus.

You can't just use the "balance" logic in golden freeza vs goku or Black vs anyone battle, like the villains even cared about balance.

Goku punched out an energy ball that was superior to the beam clash that was going to destroy the universe in base.
Goku was able counter strike the third one that going to wipe it out
Goku was able to equally cause the shockwaves with beerus in the first clash
Goku can destroy the universe period given he trained with whis for months he was able to control that shit.

[HeroR]

Even if we ignore the Daizenshuu, Freeza claimed he was curb stomping Goku with only a third of his power, so 50% was overkill. He also blocked a 20x Kaioken with his hand and only got some burn marks. You are also ignoring that Goku said that about full power Freeza. So Freeza didn't need to use half of his power to beat up Goku, and Beerus didn't need 10% to beat up Vegeta since Vegeta didn't hurt Beerus in Super.

Setup to be stronger, doesn't mean vastly stronger. The vast part being part of the fandom head canon for over twenty years.

Beerus called Goku no challenged after everything was said and done. He probably could have beating Goku with less than 70% since Goku never had the advantage once during the battle. And Whis said they may have a chance against Beerus, not that they would actually win. Big different.

You're the one who thinks that Beerus needed 10% to beat up Vegeta when he was raging, when nothing of the sort was seen since Vegeta performed worse in Super compared to his movie counterpart who made Beerus bleed.

Freeza's third power comment isn't in the manga and he even "comforts" Goku that he isn't going to kill him just like that as it would be unsatisfying, basically confirming what I said: he's giving off more power than necessary to psychologically terrify his enemies.

Beerus doesn't do that, in the BoG film where Goku is worth about 60% of his power, Beerus uses 70% to take him down, why? Because he wants a good fight but also to win it, this small gap allows Beerus to have this good fight without the fear of actual injury or even death. That's even the reason he doesn't smash Rageta in either versions is he wants to see what Vegeta is capable of and what is he capable of? 10% of his Beerus' strength in the Super version.

Considering the fact Vegetto needed Super Saiyan to beat Boohan, he's most definitely not vastly stronger but the boost HAS to be hefty for two guys who are inferior to Namek Freeza to shoot past Gohan absorbed Super Boo with just Super Saiyan. And it's implied Vegetto isn't even using all of his SS power to do so.

That 60% is based on Toriyama 6-10-15 comment. Whis said that this is the first time in a while since Beerus used 70% of his power and Beerus called Goku no treat. Also, as far as know, he only used 70% when he dropped that death ball on Goku's head that he couldn't pushed back.

Implied doesn't equal stated. Also, as I noted, the magazine compared Merged Zamasu's power to Beerus, saying that Merged Zamasu was the stronger character next to Beerus. Meaning that Vegetto isn't even stronger than Merged Zamasu.

[MagmonKai]

Even if we ignore the Daizenshuu, Freeza claimed he was curb stomping Goku with only a third of his power, so 50% was overkill. He also blocked a 20x Kaioken with his hand and only got some burn marks. You are also ignoring that Goku said that about full power Freeza. So Freeza didn't need to use half of his power to beat up Goku, and Beerus didn't need 10% to beat up Vegeta since Vegeta didn't hurt Beerus in Super.

Setup to be stronger, doesn't mean vastly stronger. The vast part being part of the fandom head canon for over twenty years.

Beerus called Goku no challenged after everything was said and done. He probably could have beating Goku with less than 70% since Goku never had the advantage once during the battle. And Whis said they may have a chance against Beerus, not that they would actually win. Big different.

You're the one who thinks that Beerus needed 10% to beat up Vegeta when he was raging, when nothing of the sort was seen since Vegeta performed worse in Super compared to his movie counterpart who made Beerus bleed.

Freeza's third power comment isn't in the manga and he even "comforts" Goku that he isn't going to kill him just like that as it would be unsatisfying, basically confirming what I said: he's giving off more power than necessary to psychologically terrify his enemies.

Beerus doesn't do that, in the BoG film where Goku is worth about 60% of his power, Beerus uses 70% to take him down, why? Because he wants a good fight but also to win it, this small gap allows Beerus to have this good fight without the fear of actual injury or even death. That's even the reason he doesn't smash Rageta in either versions is he wants to see what Vegeta is capable of and what is he capable of? 10% of his Beerus' strength in the Super version.

Considering the fact Vegetto needed Super Saiyan to beat Boohan, he's most definitely not vastly stronger but the boost HAS to be hefty for two guys who are inferior to Namek Freeza to shoot past Gohan absorbed Super Boo with just Super Saiyan. And it's implied Vegetto isn't even using all of his SS power to do so.

That 60% is based on Toriyama 6-10-15 comment. Whis said that this is the first time in a while since Beerus used 70% of his power and Beerus called Goku no treat. Also, as far as know, he only used 70% when he dropped that death ball on Goku's head that he couldn't pushed back.

Implied doesn't equal stated. Also, as I noted, the magazine compared Merged Zamasu's power to Beerus, saying that Merged Zamasu was the stronger character next to Beerus. Meaning that Vegetto isn't even stronger than Merged Zamasu.

I think we should wait for an official translation of that article. I hear too many conflicting stories on it.

[apex_pretador]

Super Saiyan God Goku nearly destroyed the universe by accidentally along with Beerus. And using the Earth lack of damage is really dumb since in that case, Freeza is the most powerful character next to Beerus.

SSG Goku was unable to balance "beerus's power" and that's why universe was threatened, clearly because of beerus's power, not gokus.

You can't just use the "balance" logic in golden freeza vs goku or Black vs anyone battle, like the villains even cared about balance.

It was both of them together since Beerus wasn't trying to balance himself at all. Goku had to cancel out his attacks. And again, if we used how much damaged the planet suffers as a benchmark for power, Freeza in his first form is one of the strongest character in the series, stronger than all his other forms in fact, since he destroyed a planet 10x the size of Earth with his index finger.

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

Nah, that weakness is him fusion in SSB state. Remember Old kaioshin said that Super Saiyan would be too hard on the body? That's what vegetto weill be suffering.

We see Vegetto in his base form before transforming, so he wasn't a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

There is no reason to believe that beerus wasn't trying to balance. He doesn't want to die.

There's some unverified spoilers about Vegetto having a weakness that did not exist in the original fusion, so maybe that's why he ends up weaker than Beerus.

Nah, that weakness is him fusion in SSB state. Remember Old kaioshin said that Super Saiyan would be too hard on the body? That's what vegetto weill be suffering.

He said that fusing while they're already SSJs would be too stressful as they would be unable to power down, here Vegetto starts out in base so I don't think that's the problem.

I don't remember vegetto in base, so that was a wild guess

[TheUltimateNinja]

I wonder what kind of weakness he ends up with. If he ends being weaker than Merged Zamasu who is in turn weaker than Beerus I'm gonna laugh.

[Marlowe89]

It should also be noted that the magazine specifically says that Merged Zamasu is the strongest character in the series, but weaker than Beerus.

Unless I'm missing some part of the scan, it doesn't specifically say that. Atsushi Kido states that Beerus is "overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black" - it's clear that he wasn't even including fused characters in his comparison.

[HeroR]

It should also be noted that the magazine specifically says that Merged Zamasu is the strongest character in the series, but weaker than Beerus.

Unless I'm missing some part of the scan, it doesn't specifically say that. Atsushi Kido states that Beerus is "overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black" - it's clear that he wasn't even including fused characters in his comparison.

Yeah, I was made aware of the error.

[Draconic]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

[Helios518]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

Just because Goku Black and Zamasu are individually are far weaker than Beerus doesn't mean their fusion can't surpass Beerus. That's like saying because SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta are weaker then Boohan then SSJ Vegetto is still weaker than Boohan.

[HeroR]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

Beerus killed Present Zamasu, who is much weaker than Future Zamasu. Present Zamasu was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

[Zamasu55]

The latest interview states that SsjR Black Goku is the strongest character of the show, Beerus aside. I think he was referring to the one using the scyte against SsjB Vegeta... so, he's stronger than both Hit (full power) and SsjB Kkx10 Goku. Predictable.

Omni King.
The Great Priest.
Whis/Vados.
Beerus/Champa.

Merged Zamasu.
SsjR Black Goku (rage-boost).
SsjB Goku (episode 65), SsjB Vegeta (post training), Super Trunks (rage-boost).
Hit (max power).
SsjB Kkx10 Goku.
SsjR Black Goku.
Super Trunks (Episode 63).
SsjB Goku (angry, Black Goku saga).
Future Zamasu.
Black Goku (base form).
Hit (first improvement).
SsjB Goku (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga)/SsjB Goku (Universal tournament saga)/SsjB Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/SsjB Copy-Vegeta/SsjB Vegeta (Universal tournament saga)/Super Trunks.
SsjB Goku (ROF saga), SsjB Vegeta (ROF saga).
SsjG Goku.
Ssj2 Future Trunks (post training).
Hit (base power).
Beyond God Goku (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Goku (Copy-Vegeta saga), Beyond God Goku (Universal tournament saga)/Beyond God Vegeta (Black Goku saga)/Beyond God Copy-Vegeta, Beyond God Vegeta (Universal tournament saga).
Beyond God Goku (ROF saga), Beyond God Vegeta (ROF saga), Final form Frieza (ROF saga).

I think this is pretty much correct. One thing: Black Goku (base form) was shown to be stronger than SsjB Vegeta in episode 56.

Black Goku (against Future Trunks and Goku)/Ssj3 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Goku (Black Goku saga).
Ssj2 Future Trunks.
Zamasu.
Ssj Goku (Universal Tournament)/Ssj Vegeta (Universal Tournament)/Magetta.
Ssj Future Trunks.
Ssj Cabba.
Final form Frost.
Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta.
First form Frieza (ROF saga).
Ultimate Gohan (BOG saga)/Ssj Gohan (ROF saga).
Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj Gotenks.
Ginyu.
Mr. Buu.
Base Gohan (ROF saga)/Tagoma (post training).
Base Goku (Universal tournament)/Base Vegeta (Universal tournament)/Assault form Frost.
Base Future Trunks.
First form Frost/Base Cabba.

[Zamasu55]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

Beerus killed Present Zamasu, who is much weaker than Future Zamasu. Present Zamasu was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

He literally erased him, not just kill.

[Helios518]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

Beerus killed Present Zamasu, who is much weaker than Future Zamasu. Present Zamasu was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

He literally erased him, not just kill.

That's nothing special, it's just a technique. Cell could've done the same to Freeza if he had the technique.

[HeroR]

With Goku Black confirmed weaker than Beerus and Zamasu being one-shot material to the God of Destruction, it makes sense if Merged Zamasu ended up without a huge power boost from the fusion. Black's power, already surpassing Goku and Vegeta's, combined with immortality hacks would still trouble SSBlue Vegetto, especially seems he is getting a weakness too it seems.
I think it's fair to say now that Beerus is still on top of things imo. If not, at least that Whis should still have no trouble in dealing with these guys.

Beerus killed Present Zamasu, who is much weaker than Future Zamasu. Present Zamasu was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

He literally erased him, not just kill.

That's an assumption and it was still the weaker Present Zamasu.

[Draconic]

Future Zamasu is only shown standing up to Blue Goku because he is immortal. He's more or less around Trunks' level before the new form. So even if he is stronger than Present Zamasu, it's not by much. Having the abillity to no-sell damage is huge and is making up for the gap between their powers. It's been repeatedly shown Goku can stomp him, but he keeps coming back up because he can't actually be hurt.

The difference between the Vegetto vs Boohan situation and Merged Zamasu is that it's been shown before in the series that unless charactersare around the same power, the fusion result is not that effective. Merged Zamasu's boost would be more akin to Kibitoshin's rather than Vegetto's.