"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

That's plain dumb. Don't introduce a character so strong that you can't come up with a way for the characters to defeat him without resorting to plot devices and excuses.

Isn't everything a "plot device," though? How else would you define what you're talking about? What ARE you talking about, actually? How is the Mafuba NOT a "plot device"?

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

[Anime Kitten]

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

... to be fair, Zen'ou is comprised of raw strength alone, to our knowledge. All we know is that he could wipe out all existence with the blink of an eye (literally). I don't know what else that would be classified as.

[Draconic]

I'm not sure how to feel about this. On one hand Zeno coming out is kinda cheap, but on the other I am happy Vegetto doesn't prove to be the solution. As it's described, that Zamasu's body is destroyed but his soul keeps on going due to immortality, I imagine there literally is no other way than to summon Zeno to take this, so at least it's used as the ultimate measure in front of an unfightable enemy, so it doesn't feel as cheap as the Time Rewind in RoF, where the characters had the fight in the pocket and just lost due to sheer stupidity. Not to mention we don't know WHAT Zeno will actually do. As it stands, the way the story progressed I'm not that mad that he will appear, but I can't say I am exicted for it. I'm hoping the execution surprises me.

[HeroR]

Oh God, no, please.

What's the point of the whole arc if a cheat character like Zeno destroys the villian? Such entities like the Grand Priest, Whis and Zeno should be left out of any battle or conflict, for the sake of good storytelling.

I hope it's something more than what it seems so far.

They're fighting an immortal who gets stronger through battle. When has this battle been remotely fair? A cheap character takes out another cheap character.

That's plain dumb. Don't introduce a character so strong that you can't come up with a way for the characters to defeat him without resorting to plot devices and excuses. It's the final battle of Naruto all over again!

The Mafuba was the perfect way to defeat him. It made sense, and it is a move we've already seen before, but hey, the writers care more about making Goku a 2-year old who forgets crucial elements to the battle than about good storytelling.

I don't want to get to harsh because we don't know what'll really go down, but if it really happens then idk anymore.

Goku forgetting the seal is no more stupid than half the cast holding the idiot ball during the Cell Saga.

Almost every villain in Z was done in by 'plot devices and excuses'. Like Gohan's tail growing back and Vegeta's false moon still being up. Or Freeza being too stupid to one-shot the heroes and not doing anything until all his men died.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

They're fighting an immortal who gets stronger through battle. When has this battle been remotely fair? A cheap character takes out another cheap character.

That's plain dumb. Don't introduce a character so strong that you can't come up with a way for the characters to defeat him without resorting to plot devices and excuses. It's the final battle of Naruto all over again!

The Mafuba was the perfect way to defeat him. It made sense, and it is a move we've already seen before, but hey, the writers care more about making Goku a 2-year old who forgets crucial elements to the battle than about good storytelling.

I don't want to get to harsh because we don't know what'll really go down, but if it really happens then idk anymore.

Goku forgetting the seal is no more stupid than half the cast holding the idiot ball during the Cell Saga.

Almost every villain in Z was done in by 'plot devices and excuses'. Like Gohan's tail growing back and Vegeta's false moon still being up. Or Freeza being too stupid to one-shot the heroes and not doing anything until all his men died.

Did Goku even forget it? I think it was Roshi. Goku was with him before he zapped off and didn't look like he had the seal there.

[HeroR]

Did Goku even forget it? I think it was Roshi. Goku was with him before he zapped off and didn't look like he had the seal there.

I personally blamed Rossi more than Goku since he never gave Goku the seal. Goku talked to him for several minutes before taking off, so Goku didn't hurry off.

But everyone blames Goku since he forgot the senzus.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Did Goku even forget it? I think it was Roshi. Goku was with him before he zapped off and didn't look like he had the seal there.

I personally blamed Rossi more than Goku since he never gave Goku the seal. Goku talked to him for several minutes before taking off, so Goku didn't hurry off.

But everyone blames Goku since he forgot the senzus.

I just rewatched the bit and yup that's exactly how it went down. Roshi never once said anything about the seal. Not even after Goku left.

[Legion]

Ok, but...so people likes that the Gods have solved this saga and that Goku/Vegeta are useless again (even with the fusion)?

Zamasu for me should be completely defeated by mortals, especially after his words and his arrogance.

[Avok]

Isn't everything a "plot device," though? How else would you define what you're talking about? What ARE you talking about, actually? How is the Mafuba NOT a "plot device"?

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

Should have used "deus ex machina" instead? Sometimes I get confused with the English terminology, my bad.

Dragon Ball has always been the type of series were enemies get defeated by raw strenght alone. If the enemy can destroy a planet then the heroes come up with a way of destroying a solar system, and so on. I completely agree that something different would be the most exciting. No arguing on that.

A valid way of defeating him would be exploiting a weakness or using a move that the characters already know. The Mafuba was the perfect way of defeating him because

a) It has worked in the past.
b) It is a move that has been used before.
c) It was said that you could die from using the move.
This adds the element of sacrifice; the victory isn't taken from granted.

It all comes down to not creating invencible characters. As I said, I don't want to get to critical because we have yet to see how the last part of the battle will go down, but the problem lies in where do you put the limit of strenght?

Goku forgetting the seal is no more stupid than half the cast holding the idiot ball during the Cell Saga.

Almost every villain in Z was done in by 'plot devices and excuses'. Like Gohan's tail growing back and Vegeta's false moon still being up. Or Freeza being too stupid to one-shot the heroes and not doing anything until all his men died.

I don't want to suggest that the original manga is perfect or something. It is no.
But those things are a million times better than having an almighty character defeating the enemy because the writers made him so strong.

[Noah]

You basically described the Boo arc.

It's laughable when people defending Super like to make lame comparisons with Z, just to make it less appealing as it was, you can't say anything about the show that people usually come with the same posts:

You just described the 'x' Arc

Trunks rage boosts and new form as just as dumb as Goku becoming SSJ2 and 3 off-screen

I mean, really? Look to these comparisons:

a dumb plot device

Genki Dama was just a dumb plot device as Zeno's Button might be? You may thought that both are anticlimactic, but for me it was played great in Boo Arc

a bunch of rematches

I'd remember Goku and Vegeta fighting against Boo more than anyone else in the arc, but weren't under the same conditions in the current arc, you can even consider different forms of Majin Boo and wasn't "fight and retreat" all the time.

an inexplicable new form

Are we really comparing how it was show SSJ3 with that "Super Trunks" thing? I might repeat myself again:

"Goku trained for straight 7 years in the Otherworld with methods that are believable to be more efficient than RoSaT, it's not that vague about how he got the transformation."

Nothing yet is show why Trunks is suddenly all that powerful.

If even by that you think Super is just as "bad" as Z back then, well just a matter of opinions then

The Mafuba was the perfect way to defeat him. It made sense, and it is a move we've already seen before, but hey, the writers care more about making Goku a 2-year old who forgets crucial elements to the battle than about good storytelling.

I agree immensely with this post and I feel the same pain, tho

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

I don't think he was talking about strength, he did said that Mafuba would be great way to finish Zamasu and I agree with that, it would be the first time we had a villian defeated without overcoming his power (by individuals or a technique)

[Will]

Ok, but...so people likes that the Gods have solved this saga and that Goku/Vegeta are useless again (even with the fusion)?

Zamasu for me should be completely defeated by mortals, especially after his words and his arrogance.

It look like Trunks (with Vegeto or not) destroy Zamasu's body so I won't call them useless at all.

[HeroR]

Isn't everything a "plot device," though? How else would you define what you're talking about? What ARE you talking about, actually? How is the Mafuba NOT a "plot device"?

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

Should have used "deus ex machina" instead? Sometimes I get confused with the English terminology, my bad.

Dragon Ball has always been the type of series were enemies get defeated by raw strenght alone. If the enemy can destroy a planet then the heroes come up with a way of destroying a solar system, and so on. I completely agree that something different would be the most exciting. No arguing on that.

A valid way of defeating him would be exploiting a weakness or using a move that the characters already know. The Mafuba was the perfect way of defeating him because

a) It has worked in the past.
b) It is a move that has been used before.
c) It was said that you could die from using the move.
This adds the element of sacrifice; the victory isn't taken from granted.

It all comes down to not creating invencible characters. As I said, I don't want to get to critical because we have yet to see how the last part of the battle will go down, but the problem lies in where do you put the limit of strenght?

Deus ex machina is a plot device that comes out of nowhere and has no foreshadowing. Goku got the button back in Episode 55, so it's by definition not a deus ex machina.

Also, that isn't true that all villains in Dragon Ball is defeated by power. Vegeta and Buu were taking down by mostly teamwork. Beerus could only be appeased and Golden Freeza defeated himself. The only villains that were taking down by raw strength in Z were Freeza and Cell.

[Big Black Sayian]

That's plain dumb. Don't introduce a character so strong that you can't come up with a way for the characters to defeat him without resorting to plot devices and excuses.

Isn't everything a "plot device," though? How else would you define what you're talking about? What ARE you talking about, actually? How is the Mafuba NOT a "plot device"?

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

Funny enough as plot devices go, Zen-o showing up was set up before the mafuba and Vegito.

[Freeza9000]

I think Zen'o showing up just goes to show how much of an unstoppable force Zamasu truly is. I mean, he's killed all the gods, is immortal with unlimited potential, can just simply can't be defeated. Not to mention, Zamasu currently is the strongest and even has the potential to surpass Beerus and Whis, even fusion (Vegetto) seemingly (due to spoilers) wasn't able to stop him. I also think that Zen'o showing up might lead into the new arc confirmed after this. I know I used to think that Zen'o showing up was a bad idea, but let's see how execution pans out.

[Lujin_16]

I think Zen'o showing up just goes to show how much of an unstoppable force Zamasu truly is. I mean, he's killed all the gods, is immortal with unlimited potential, can just simply can't be defeated. Not to mention, Zamasu currently is the strongest and even has the potential to surpass Beerus and Whis, even fusion (Vegetto) seemingly (due to spoilers) wasn't able to stop him. I also think that Zen'o showing up might lead into the new arc confirmed after this.

You are right and seeing Goku for the first time in trouble and wanting help that's new for the series

[Lord Frieza]

That's plain dumb. Don't introduce a character so strong that you can't come up with a way for the characters to defeat him without resorting to plot devices and excuses.

Isn't everything a "plot device," though? How else would you define what you're talking about? What ARE you talking about, actually? How is the Mafuba NOT a "plot device"?

I'm curious: what would be a valid way of defeating Zamasu? Just being "stronger"? Just... strength? Like, just strength?

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

Funny enough as plot devices go, Zen-o showing up was set up before the mafuba and Vegito.

True, give them credit for working so hard that they made us think the Zeno button was not going to be the final option. Then again, as I've already said it shows just how dangerous Zamasu is.

[Freeza9000]

Zamasu for me should be completely defeated by mortals, especially after his words and his arrogance.

Well, to be fair, Zamasu's upcoming defeat was because of mortals summoning Zen'o.

[Avok]

Deus ex machina is a plot device that comes out of nowhere and has no foreshadowing. Goku got the button back in Episode 55, so it's by definition not a deus ex machina.

Also, that isn't true that all villains in Dragon Ball is defeated by power. Vegeta and Buu were taking down by mostly teamwork. Beerus could only be appeased and Golden Freeza defeated himself. The only villains that were taking down by raw strength in Z were Freeza and Cell.

You're right on Vegeta.
Defeating Buu was a team effort, yes, but it all came down to overpowering him.

About the deus ex machina, you may be right on that, but being foreshadowed doesn't make it any less uninteresting and perhaps lazy. Why do it that way when you can come up with other means for the characters to win?

Zeno is just a gag character. He works because he's the God of all universes, but instead of being some fearsome or holy being he's mostly a little child who is more interested in playing and making friends. Outside out that he's pretty much useless, because his involvement feels cheap. He's the strongest being in the series after all.

For all we know the button may not even work, so let's wait and see what happens.

[Freeza9000]

first time in trouble and wanting help that's new for the series

Ehh, not quite new since Goku had no trouble accepting help from Piccolo in order to free his son from Raditz.

[Araki]

See, that's not interesting to me. I want consequences. I want novelty. I've seen nothing BUT "strength" over and over in this franchise, and I'm ready for something else.

... to be fair, Zen'ou is comprised of raw strength alone, to our knowledge. All we know is that he could wipe out all existence with the blink of an eye (literally). I don't know what else that would be classified as.

Whis said that measuring Zen'oh's power by strength was wrong and a Saiyajin mistake. I don't know how they could be any clearer.