Let's talk about Trunks...

[Kanassa]

EDIT: I don't like the word Gary Stue/Mary Sue cause it's something people throw around just because they dislike something or like you said to overexaggerate. The word itself has no meaning.

The word has meaning, it's just people keep misusing it and assuming one trait makes the entire character the trope. A Sue/Stue isn't just a list a traits, it's how those traits and the character themselves are treated by the story.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

He was on point for the most part. His relationship with Vegeta clicked, Toei nailed his breaking the news of his broken future (and thus his vastly different temperament) to Present Trunks, and to some extent the man has always been a stiff straight shooter that rarely thought on his feet in a fight, enough so that his aping his Dad's attacks was a welcome change of pace. He was certainly more take-the-future-with-my-own-hands shonen hero than he was in the Cell arc, something that just isn't Dragon Ball's style, and I never read the "HOPE!!" line as peppy, more melancholy. But on the most literal level, Trunks' entire conscious life has been one long story of human resilience, and Zamasu does not seem to respect that any more than mortals' other virtues.

Trunks' martial performances generally made sense, bar that ending, but the blue-pseudo godly power is suspect. If it is the intermediate state between Super Saiyan and Blue that it looks like, it makes sense as a phase Vegeta probably went through on his way to azure deity. But clawing your way up there by sheer anger sort of muddies the notion that godly power is not something mortals normally run into. I've got nothing on that killing blow.

[TheMikado]

I don't think I've ever known a fanbase that's opinions on a show in general are affected so much by power levels in it. Not specifically referring to this topic or even this forum, it's just something with this fanbase in general.

For example if they had Piccolo and Gohan show up and they fought Black and it was a really good entertaining fight scene, fantastic animation, one of the best fights in all the franchise. Instead of people enjoying it though people would be ripping the show and Toriyama because "but power levels!". You'd be likely to see more people criticizing it for that than praising it for how good it was.

Like this

How? Just how?? This was the same Trunks who got his shit kicked in by base Black, did no training in the past (getting his ass kicked by Vegeta isn't training) came back and can now fight on par with SSJB Goku and take a SSJR Kamehameha along side him.

Does it really matter? It was a fantastic scene, arguably one of the best scenes in the series. Very entertaining actually and I watch the scene over on Youtube every now and then. I certainly don't let the fact that Trunks was able to do this and questioning the writing behind it stop me from really enjoying the scene.

Trunks got a new form. The scene where he obtained it was cool, it looks cool, it was involved in several scenes of the anime that were pretty cool. It'll probably be a playable character in video games in the future. Is it really that important to know what it specifically is? It's just a new more powerful form.

Then you've got critiques like this

Goku had to train for months with the actual creator of the Spirit Bomb in order to perfect the technique.

It's a problem apparently that Trunks was able to use the Spirit Bomb that Goku had to train months to learn but it's perfectly fine for Master Roshi to have learnt and perfected the Kamehameha in 50 years and for Goku to do it in 50 seconds. Let's not wait to see if anything is explained about it in the next episode, let's rip it apart before the possible explanations instead.

It's a kids anime that's meant for entertainment, it's not supposed to be over analysed and studied to the point that you go out of your way to find holes in it which just ruins the show for you.

Power levels do matter in the context of the overall struggle.

I feel like many of the people who use this argument have a poor understating of the nuances of writing, literature, and why the Dragonball and particularly the "z" portion of it were so powerful.

A man theme of the series is not only "POWER" but the attainment and source of power. The struggles to obtain new levels of power were often more important than the actual fights themselves. What you often had is a scenario where characters agonizingly trained their best and still barely overcame their opponents. In this scenario is more like the olympics or playoff games. Knowing, the struggles and the odds the protagonists had to face to get to the level to even challenge the opponent is intense in itself, but then to face down this impending opponent you've heard so much about only to still not be strong enough is an intensely desperate feeling. The build-up and then the consistency that was prevalent in the previous series is missing. Losing the build-up makes the battles, regardless of how spectacularly animated they are, emotionally meaningless.

[Kishido]

I think I never was so disappointed in a character potrayal. Not in Trunks will to fight for his world but for the asspulls he got.

Seriously he went to the past as Super Saiyan 2... And now in just some days without RoSaT he is SSB blue level or above with a new unexplained form, able to do a Genkidama like character with better mechanics while being in his strange form.

Now I ask myself. Why he never gor this powers while fighting Black? Why no rage boost after Mai or his mother dead.

It's like it just was for the ratings.

Now I have to wait for DB Heroes to get a name for his new form... Cuz I doubt we will get an LITTLE explanation next episode... Hel not even Goku or Vegeta showed some signs of suprise Trunks getting some new form.

That's why it is lol worthy to compare it to Gohan going 2 and Goku going 3. Yeah we got little explanations for it as well... But instead we got TONS of reactions with people saying how said characters have got new forms.

Trunks just transformed and no one cared or mentioned something

[Bullza]

Power levels do matter in the context of the overall struggle.

I feel like many of the people who use this argument have a poor understating of the nuances of writing, literature, and why the Dragonball and particularly the "z" portion of it were so powerful.

A man theme of the series is not only "POWER" but the attainment and source of power. The struggles to obtain new levels of power were often more important than the actual fights themselves. What you often had is a scenario where characters agonizingly trained their best and still barely overcame their opponents. In this scenario is more like the olympics or playoff games. Knowing, the struggles and the odds the protagonists had to face to get to the level to even challenge the opponent is intense in itself, but then to face down this impending opponent you've heard so much about only to still not be strong enough is an intensely desperate feeling. The build-up and then the consistency that was prevalent in the previous series is missing. Losing the build-up makes the battles, regardless of how spectacularly animated they are, emotionally meaningless.

Power levels don't matter nearly as much as you think and certainly don't to the people who make the show. That's an obsession tied more towards fans.

This Future Trunks saga was a story of Trunks trying to save his world, not of personal growth, it's not Karate Kid or Rocky. The story wouldn't have been anymore or less emotionally satisfying if we were told that Trunks had gone into the ROSAT with Vegeta for a year, that's just something that would appease the power level junkies, it has no effect on the story.

You're dressing the series up too much. Part of what you say is true but then on the other hand there was the incredibly cheap means of powering up as well.

- Goku drinking some water
- Guru putting his hand on Gohan and Krillin's head,
- The zenkai boosts which meant that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million just from being beaten around a bit
- The endless transformations they keep pulling out their ass
- Doing a little dance and fusing their powers together which also makes them stronger than the sum of both parts
- Gohan sitting down while someone does a silly dance around him for a couple hours
- Goku being in the middle of a group of saiyans holding hands

So these things are just fine apparently but these other cheap means of powering up that Trunks got...oh well that's just shit writing .

[perucho1990]

Power levels don't matter nearly as much as you think and certainly don't to the people who make the show. That's an obsession tied more towards fans.

This Future Trunks saga was a story of Trunks trying to save his world, not of personal growth, it's not Karate Kid or Rocky. The story wouldn't have been anymore or less emotionally satisfying if we were told that Trunks had gone into the ROSAT with Vegeta for a year, that's just something that would appease the power level junkies, it has no effect on the story.

You're dressing the series up too much. Part of what you say is true but then on the other hand there was the incredibly cheap means of powering up as well.

- Goku drinking some water
- Guru putting his hand on Gohan and Krillin's head,
- The zenkai boosts which meant that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million just from being beaten around a bit
- The endless transformations they keep pulling out their ass
- Doing a little dance and fusing their powers together which also makes them stronger than the sum of both parts
- Gohan sitting down while someone does a silly dance around him for a couple hours
- Goku being in the middle of a group of saiyans holding hands

So these things are just fine apparently but these other cheap means of powering up that Trunks got...oh well that's just shit writing .

Yep.

Powerlevels stopped mattering in the show when TAGOMA went from Zarbon level to curbstomping Piccolo.

Trunks slashing Zamasu in 2 was very satisfying to watch.

[Kanassa]

Power does need to be consistent, not on a scale of specific numbers you have to wrap your bring around, but in a general sense of 'This guy is much stronger then that guy'. Otherwise, you sacrifice tension due to not getting a sense of how much of a threat any situation is. Though with Super, it's not the strength of the characters that are inconsistent, it's how the characters get to those levels of power.

I can get a feel of how strong Trunks is compared to the others, I just don't get what the fuck the power up he gets is. Is it God Ki? A weird Super Saiyan form? Somthing brought from his human side?

[perucho1990]

Power does need to be consistent, not on a scale of specific numbers you have to wrap your bring around, but in a general sense of 'This guy is much stronger then that guy'. Otherwise, you sacrifice tension due to not getting a sense of how much of a threat any situation is. Though with Super, it's not the strength of the characters that are inconsistent, it's how the characters get to those levels of power.

I can get a feel of how strong Trunks is compared to the others, I just don't get what the fuck the power up he gets is. Is it God Ki? A weird Super Saiyan form? Somthing brought from his human side?

Power of Rage as Gowasu said it on episode 65 IIRC, and its not illogical, given that Vegeta got a rage boost that forced Beerus to use 10% of his power way back in BoG.

[PsionicWarrior]

Power levels don't matter nearly as much as you think and certainly don't to the people who make the show. That's an obsession tied more towards fans.

This Future Trunks saga was a story of Trunks trying to save his world, not of personal growth, it's not Karate Kid or Rocky. The story wouldn't have been anymore or less emotionally satisfying if we were told that Trunks had gone into the ROSAT with Vegeta for a year, that's just something that would appease the power level junkies, it has no effect on the story.

You're dressing the series up too much. Part of what you say is true but then on the other hand there was the incredibly cheap means of powering up as well.

- Goku drinking some water
- Guru putting his hand on Gohan and Krillin's head,
- The zenkai boosts which meant that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million just from being beaten around a bit
- The endless transformations they keep pulling out their ass
- Doing a little dance and fusing their powers together which also makes them stronger than the sum of both parts
- Gohan sitting down while someone does a silly dance around him for a couple hours
- Goku being in the middle of a group of saiyans holding hands

So these things are just fine apparently but these other cheap means of powering up that Trunks got...oh well that's just shit writing .

You see the thing is you cannot really say power levels have no impact on story when both of them are intrinsically tied lol
The whole franchise has been like this, powerups, stronger foes, zenkai, training, more powerups and it affects the story as an action-reaction chain lol

I fiercely disagree with your comparisons from other moments in the franchise,

- Not just some water, a very special water that was extremely hard to access and deal with and the first one on Karin's tower was nothing else than a placebo, there has been a real quest with this water, it's not just some water lol
- So what if Guru boosts hidden power from people, it's a perfectly reasonable ability from someone like him and during this arc main chars were heavily underpowered and it was a way to buff them a bit in a way that you can at least relate to lol
- OK that Zenkai was huge alright lol
- Not endless, Freeza, Cell and Buu each had 3 transformations I actually enjoyed that a lot
- The dance was silly but in a good way, who didn't try to do it with their classmates lol
also what's wrong with the fusion making them stronger than their sum, it's actually the whole strength of the technique lol
- That part was hilarious, and no one can't say Gohan didn't earn this boost lol
- OK that last one was lame

But all things considered, even if you consider all these powerups to be crap and is your right to think so, you can see there is at least a minimum of substance and context to them, unlike Trunks who just got insanely strong all of a sudden for NO plausible reason whatsoever in accordance of what the show had established itself as I explained you in my precedent response you conveniently ignored lol

[Fishman]

Power does need to be consistent, not on a scale of specific numbers you have to wrap your bring around, but in a general sense of 'This guy is much stronger then that guy'. Otherwise, you sacrifice tension due to not getting a sense of how much of a threat any situation is. Though with Super, it's not the strength of the characters that are inconsistent, it's how the characters get to those levels of power.

I can get a feel of how strong Trunks is compared to the others, I just don't get what the fuck the power up he gets is. Is it God Ki? A weird Super Saiyan form? Somthing brought from his human side?

Power of Rage as Gowasu said it on episode 65 IIRC, and its not illogical, given that Vegeta got a rage boost that forced Beerus to use 10% of his power way back in BoG.

The same people calling out the ridiculous Trunks gap closing at bare minimum probably rolled their eyes at "my Bulma" too, if not thought it was extremely stupid.

Like, maybe if the gaps in power weren't presented as being so extremely wide it wouldn't be such a stretch for a character to, in a moment of raw determination, fight toe to toe with someone a fair bit stronger than them. But we're talking about a Fused Villain, and going by what we've been told about Fusion's affects on a character's power (maybe we should assume anything we've ever been told is a lie, though, since potarras only last an hour now), Fusion Zamasu isn't like the jump from Third Form Freeza to Fourth Form, it's more like the jump from Bear with Sword to 100% Freeza.

[phattangent]

The struggles to obtain new levels of power were often more important than the actual fights themselves.

I think that perfectly describes most arcs in Dragon Ball.

[perucho1990]

The same people calling out the ridiculous Trunks gap closing at bare minimum probably rolled their eyes at "my Bulma" too, if not thought it was extremely stupid.

Like, maybe if the gaps in power weren't presented as being so extremely wide it wouldn't be such a stretch for a character to, in a moment of raw determination, fight toe to toe with someone a fair bit stronger than them. But we're talking about a Fused Villain, and going by what we've been told about Fusion's affects on a character's power (maybe we should assume anything we've ever been told is a lie, though, since potarras only last an hour now), Fusion Zamasu isn't like the jump from Third Form Freeza to Fourth Form, it's more like the jump from Bear with Sword to 100% Freeza.

Well that part we can blame it on Toriyama for making more powerful opponents and the Secondary characters becoming more and more useless.

But Potaras doesnt exactly make u 10000x more powerful(aside that they got nerfed...

Goku said that if he were to fuse with Mr Satan he could get weaker, and also Old Kai lost his raw strength when he fused with the witch, since it was implied all the Kaioshins could fodderize Namek Saga Frieza.

[phattangent]

Then we have what I would say is the biggest offender of all: Trunks using the Spirit Bomb better than Goku ever has then somehow fucking channelled it into his sword. [...] Using the Spirit Bomb has always been a risky last resort for Goku to use that left viewers (or readers) on the edge of their seats. But not for Trunks did it have a long charge time? Nope it only took a few seconds, did Trunks have the concentrate with his hands up to charge it? Nope he wasn't even aware of what was happening it. Did the remaining populace willingly donate genki?

I read a theory in this Forum earlier that perhaps the genkidama was Zeno's doing. I know it's still not explained in episode 66, but if it turns out to be true, then it might explain some of Trunks' power ups outside the whole power of love and hope theme that permeates the writing in this arc.

[Bullza]

I fiercely disagree with your comparisons from other moments in the franchise,

1. I was referring to the divine water. The ordinary tap water was pretty clever, making him work to get only for it to turn out the power up was in trying to get it. The divine water he just drank, was in pain for a few pages and now he's powered up thats a cheap and lame power up.

2. Guru putting his hand on Krillin's head and in seconds he's now suddenly more powerful than Nappa and Goku, that's incredibly cheap.

3. The endless transformations was referring to the Saiyans who keep coming out with something new. There's been over half a dozen forms so far.

4. The fusion was very cheap. More so with Buu because he didn't really even have to work to fuse anyone. The potara aswell.

There's all different kinds of power ups. There's the power ups from the training and the physical effort and sweat they put in which was more common in Dragon Ball and there's the transformations or some bullshit where others are able to pull vast amounts of power out of people or getting angry like a wannabe Hulk or the zenkais which had died out which was a good thing.

you can see there is at least a minimum of substance and context to them, unlike Trunks who just got insanely strong all of a sudden for NO plausible reason in accordance of what the show had established itself

There was a reason though. He trained, he got angry and Black mentioned that anger is what leads to Saiyans power and they made a whole point of that and then he got a new form so there were multiple reasons why he got so strong.

Where was all this criticism for Black's cheap means of powering up just from receiving damage? Several times he's beaten and then he powers up and he talks about it being some result of the Saiyan body yet that is completely ignored for every other Saiyan who gets beaten in the same saga.

Not to mention that it never worked like that. They were supposed to increase in strenght after recovering. No Saiyan ever received a boost like that before.

Black has the cheapest means of powering up ever and I hardly see any complaints about that, confusion yes but that's about it. So why is it oj for Black to power up and get so strong because of some unique and inconsistent form of zenkai boost but Trunks' boosts are a problem?

You'd think with all the other cheap and crappy ways they've powered some of these characters up that people wouldn't be fazed by these things anymore. In the grand scale of the series Trunks power ups aren't that bad.

[PsionicWarrior]

Black has the cheapest means of powering up ever and I hardly see any complaints about that

You are absolutely right Black also has a complete nonsensical power up, it was interesting that he had to discover Goku's body but his zenkais made no sense and I agree with you people should complain about it more lol

In the grand scale of the series Trunks power ups aren't that bad.

Please you can't mean that lol

[Marlowe89]

I don't think Trunks' power leap was that poorly explained. He obtained a new form, after all, and everybody knows that Saiyan transformations boost one's strength and overall capabilities tremendously over what they were before. My only criticism of "Super Trunks" is that... well, we don't really know what it IS, but then Super Saiyan 2 was also a bit confusing for a while before it was given a proper name and explanation.

Of course you've got people claiming that Trunks was boosted to God level during Episode 57, but that's obviously a load of bullshit because the subsequent episode established that he was still significantly beneath Goku/Vegeta's level. Him catching Black's ki sword by its duller sides and managing to get one kick in doesn't magically mean he would've been capable of giving Black the slightest amount of trouble in a one-on-one fight.

[perucho1990]

Both Black and Trunks got powerups.

Black with his zenkais and Trunks with Power of Rage.

Nobody complains about Blacks zenkais because he was an entertaining villain.

[pacz360]

Power levels do matter in the context of the overall struggle.

I feel like many of the people who use this argument have a poor understating of the nuances of writing, literature, and why the Dragonball and particularly the "z" portion of it were so powerful.

A man theme of the series is not only "POWER" but the attainment and source of power. The struggles to obtain new levels of power were often more important than the actual fights themselves. What you often had is a scenario where characters agonizingly trained their best and still barely overcame their opponents. In this scenario is more like the olympics or playoff games. Knowing, the struggles and the odds the protagonists had to face to get to the level to even challenge the opponent is intense in itself, but then to face down this impending opponent you've heard so much about only to still not be strong enough is an intensely desperate feeling. The build-up and then the consistency that was prevalent in the previous series is missing. Losing the build-up makes the battles, regardless of how spectacularly animated they are, emotionally meaningless.

Power levels don't matter nearly as much as you think and certainly don't to the people who make the show. That's an obsession tied more towards fans.

This Future Trunks saga was a story of Trunks trying to save his world, not of personal growth, it's not Karate Kid or Rocky. The story wouldn't have been anymore or less emotionally satisfying if we were told that Trunks had gone into the ROSAT with Vegeta for a year, that's just something that would appease the power level junkies, it has no effect on the story.

You're dressing the series up too much. Part of what you say is true but then on the other hand there was the incredibly cheap means of powering up as well.

- Goku drinking some water
- Guru putting his hand on Gohan and Krillin's head,
- The zenkai boosts which meant that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million just from being beaten around a bit
- The endless transformations they keep pulling out their ass
- Doing a little dance and fusing their powers together which also makes them stronger than the sum of both parts
- Gohan sitting down while someone does a silly dance around him for a couple hours
- Goku being in the middle of a group of saiyans holding hands

So these things are just fine apparently but these other cheap means of powering up that Trunks got...oh well that's just shit writing .

OH BOY ANOTHER BUT Z DID TOO THEREFORE SUPER SHOULD GET PASS BULLSHIT! no most of those examples you listed were explained while trunks wasn't at all. Seriously this "z did too shtick" needs to stop.

[PsionicWarrior]

Nobody complains about Blacks zenkais because he was an entertaining villain.

Haha fair enough it's true it's easier to overlook it lol

Seriously this "z did too shtick" needs to stop.

Indeed whatever flaws Z had does not magically make Super's ones disappear lol

[PsionicWarrior]

There was a reason though. He trained, he got angry and Black mentioned that anger is what leads to Saiyans power and they made a whole point of that and then he got a new form so there were multiple reasons why he got so strong.

Sorry I skipped that,

But none of these reasons make sense within the context of SSJG/B/R, the dude was at freaking SSJ2 to start with lol
The only thing I could see would be that anger + emotions developed a new unknown immensely powerful form that they have yet to explain and that's already a hell of a stretch lol