Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well in the Saiyan saga you never actually saw the one he created at first. You only saw the football sized Spirit Bomb that he gave to Krillin and by that point he said he'd lost most of it.

I suppose the size isn't that important yeah. In the Saiyan Saga the spirit bomb was just created from the Earth but not the people. The same was true for the one in the Namek saga except that was much bigger...can't remember why now...doesn't matter. In the Buu saga though the spirit bomb was formed from the people of Earth, Namek and those in the otherworld so probably billions of people.

With the Spirit Bomb in this episode he somehow forms the spirit bomb from the Earth and the people. Somehow unintentionally and without the humans having to raise their arms and exhausting themselves. It shouldn't be as powerful as the one who used against Buu but perhaps combined with the power of the Saiyans it was enough.

[Speedster]

1. Goku overclocked with the Kamemehama so him doing better than Vegeta+Trunks is not that much of a stretch. It was a maximum Kamehameha. The equivalent beam in amplification factor that Vegeta/Trunks have is the final flash, not the Gallick Gun.

2. Goku overpowering Zamasu’s ki ball and dealing damage to him was not unreasonable. It was a concentrated ki beam vs a large ki sphere. It was not a beam Vs beam struggle. Remember Omega Shenron (sorry Yī Xīng Lóng) in GT condensing his energy sphere into a smaller volume against Gogeta? Zamasu’s ki sphere was too large -it certainly had more energy than Goku’s Kamehameha but as it was over a much larger volume it’s totally possible that its energy density was smaller than Goku’s kamehama. As a result Goku’s Kamehameha could pierce through it like a 0.1kg iron nail on a 10kg wood board. And as this piercing was not something Zamasu was expecting it hit him on the face while he was off guard. And thus it dealt damage to him.

3. The Merged Zamasu that fought Vegetto was stronger than the one who had a beam struggle with Goku. After his "defeat" by Goku, merged Zamasu further powered up by getting stricken by the “light of justice”.

4. Vegetto weakened Zamasu and it wasn’t an even fight at all. Vegetto was clearly superior at least in terms of speed (stated). He kept pummelling Zamasu and he fired at him an ultimate Kamehameha. Gowasu previously said that in order to weaken Zamasu’s immortality he needs to get hit again by an even higher force than Goku’s Kamehameha and KK combo and that is exactly what happened. Also Vegetto commented on the fact that Zamasu now felt pain when he pierced him with his spirit spear – something he wasn’t feeling before. It was also stated that Zamasu’s complex emotions were affecting him too. In any case it is safe to say that by the time Trunks stepped in and was able to keep up with Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was already weakened.

5. You don't need to power up to give your energy to a Genki Dama. Goten and Trunks didn't turn SSJ1 or fused into Gotenks to turn SSJ3 in order to donate their Genki to the Genki Dama against kid Buu. So Goku and Vegeta donating while in base is fine.

6. The Genki sword working on Zamasu was probably not so much due to its power but due to the beautiful mortal emotions of hope it was containing interacting with Zamasu’s complex ugly emotions which were manifesting with his ugly purple form.

Genki Trunks/Vegetto Blue>Merged Justice Zamasu (full power)>> Enraged Super Trunks=KK Goku=Weakened Merged Justice Zamasu>Initial Merged Zamasu>SSJB Goku/Vegeta, Super Trunks

[HeroR]

Well in the Saiyan saga you never actually saw the one he created at first. You only saw the football sized Spirit Bomb that he gave to Krillin and by that point he said he'd lost most of it.

I suppose the size isn't that important yeah. In the Saiyan Saga the spirit bomb was just created from the Earth but not the people. The same was true for the one in the Namek saga except that was much bigger...can't remember why now...doesn't matter. In the Buu saga though the spirit bomb was formed from the people of Earth, Namek and those in the otherworld so probably billions of people.

With the Spirit Bomb in this episode he somehow forms the spirit bomb from the Earth and the people. Somehow unintentionally and without the humans having to raise their arms and exhausting themselves. It shouldn't be as powerful as the one who used against Buu but perhaps combined with the power of the Saiyans it was enough.

We did see it. Goku made it into a ball and was about to throw it when Great Ape Vegeta mouth blasted. It was about the same size as the one he gave Krillin, strangely. Also, the Spirit Bomb on Namek was a solar system because Goku couldn't get crap from Namek since it was nearly dead.

And the humans probably didn't have to hold their hands since no seemed to be consciously aware of the Spirit Bomb. Not even Trunks. Which is why I don't think he created it.

[MagmonKai]

Damn wouldn't it have been nice if Both Zamasu' switched Bodies. The Present Zamasu switched bodies with Goku and the Future Zamasu switched bodies with Vegeta. That way we would have an awesome evil doppleganer battle with SSB Vegito vs SSR Vegito Black...Even though it wouldn't last very long (stupid retcons).

Vegeta is dead in the future timeline. So, they couldn't take his body and if they were going to revived anyone, it would have been Goku since that's who Zamasu is obsessed with. Plus, we have enough evil Vegeta between Majin, Baby, and Copy-Vegeta. We don't need a fourth. And before someone mention Turles or even Bardock, Turles is his own character with a thinly veiled excuse as to why he looks like Goku. Bardock is Goku's father. All of the evil Vegetas, except Copy-Vegeta, is Vegeta.

Goku is dead in the future timeline too...so what's your point on that? Lol...I was just saying in a hypothetical re-written version of super where the copy-Vegeta arc didn't happen of course. I was thinking of how baddass it would have been. I see your point about Vegeta being evil in the past, but he never faced an Evil Version of himself. I just think that would have been an interesting character development for Vegeta to face an Evil Component of himself.

[ZombieVito]

1. Goku overclocked with the Kamemehama so him doing better than Vegeta+Trunks is not that much of a stretch. It was a maximum Kamehameha. The equivalent beam in amplification factor that Vegeta/Trunks have is the final flash, not the Gallick Gun.

2. Goku overpowering Zamasu’s ki ball and dealing damage to him was not unreasonable. It was a concentrated ki beam vs a large ki sphere. It was not a beam Vs beam struggle. Remember Omega Shenron (sorry Yī Xīng Lóng) in GT condensing his energy sphere into a smaller volume against Gogeta? Zamasu’s ki sphere was too large -it certainly had more energy than Goku’s Kamehameha but as it was over a much larger volume it’s totally possible that its energy density was smaller than Goku’s kamehama. As a result Goku’s Kamehameha could pierce through it like a 0.1kg iron nail on a 10kg wood board. And as this piercing was not something Zamasu was expecting it hit him on the face while he was off guard. And thus it dealt damage to him.

3. The Merged Zamasu that fought Vegetto was stronger than the one who had a beam struggle with Goku. After his "defeat" by Goku, merged Zamasu further powered up by getting stricken by the “light of justice”.

4. Vegetto weakened Zamasu and it wasn’t an even fight at all. Vegetto was clearly superior at least in terms of speed (stated). He kept pummelling Zamasu and he fired at him an ultimate Kamehameha. Gowasu previously said that in order to weaken Zamasu’s immortality he needs to get hit again by an even higher force than Goku’s Kamehameha and KK combo and that is exactly what happened. Also Vegetto commented on the fact that Zamasu now felt pain when he pierced him with his spirit spear – something he wasn’t feeling before. It was also stated that Zamasu’s complex emotions were affecting him too. In any case it is safe to say that by the time Trunks stepped in and was able to keep up with Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was already weakened.

5. You don't need to power up to give your energy to a Genki Dama. Goten and Trunks didn't turn SSJ1 or fused into Gotenks to turn SSJ3 in order to donate their Genki to the Genki Dama against kid Buu. So Goku and Vegeta donating while in base is fine.

6. The Genki sword working on Zamasu was probably not so much due to its power but due to the beautiful mortal emotions of hope it was containing interacting with Zamasu’s complex ugly emotions which were manifesting with his ugly purple form.

Excellent. Just like that all the so called powerscale "inconsistencies" of this episode are wiped away.

If only the majority of the fanbase could be like Speedster when it comes to this topic.

[emperior]

1. Goku overclocked with the Kamemehama so him doing better than Vegeta+Trunks is not that much of a stretch. It was a maximum Kamehameha. The equivalent beam in amplification factor that Vegeta/Trunks have is the final flash, not the Gallick Gun.

2. Goku overpowering Zamasu’s ki ball and dealing damage to him was not unreasonable. It was a concentrated ki beam vs a large ki sphere. It was not a beam Vs beam struggle. Remember Omega Shenron (sorry Yī Xīng Lóng) in GT condensing his energy sphere into a smaller volume against Gogeta? Zamasu’s ki sphere was too large -it certainly had more energy than Goku’s Kamehameha but as it was over a much larger volume it’s totally possible that its energy density was smaller than Goku’s kamehama. As a result Goku’s Kamehameha could pierce through it like a 0.1kg iron nail on a 10kg wood board. And as this piercing was not something Zamasu was expecting it hit him on the face while he was off guard. And thus it dealt damage to him.

3. The Merged Zamasu that fought Vegetto was stronger than the one who had a beam struggle with Goku. After his "defeat" by Goku, merged Zamasu further powered up by getting stricken by the “light of justice”.

4. Vegetto weakened Zamasu and it wasn’t an even fight at all. Vegetto was clearly superior at least in terms of speed (stated). He kept pummelling Zamasu and he fired at him an ultimate Kamehameha. Gowasu previously said that in order to weaken Zamasu’s immortality he needs to get hit again by an even higher force than Goku’s Kamehameha and KK combo and that is exactly what happened. Also Vegetto commented on the fact that Zamasu now felt pain when he pierced him with his spirit spear – something he wasn’t feeling before. It was also stated that Zamasu’s complex emotions were affecting him too. In any case it is safe to say that by the time Trunks stepped in and was able to keep up with Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was already weakened.

5. You don't need to power up to give your energy to a Genki Dama. Goten and Trunks didn't turn SSJ1 or fused into Gotenks to turn SSJ3 in order to donate their Genki to the Genki Dama against kid Buu. So Goku and Vegeta donating while in base is fine.

6. The Genki sword working on Zamasu was probably not so much due to its power but due to the beautiful mortal emotions of hope it was containing interacting with Zamasu’s complex ugly emotions which were manifesting with his ugly purple form.

Genki Trunks/Vegetto Blue>Merged Justice Zamasu (full power)>> Enraged Super Trunks=KK Goku=Weakened Merged Justice Zamasu>Initial Merged Zamasu>SSJB Goku/Vegeta, Super Trunks

This is perfect, you also didn't mention that after firing the Kamehameha, Goku was unable to use both his arms. It's possible he used the Kaio-Ken during the Kamehameha, anyways it was clear he used almost all of his power and after that he only used his legs to fight Fused Zamasu

[Bullza]

If they'd have had Goku use the Kaioken x10 from the Kamehameha scene then it would have probably have appeased a lot of people.

Merged Zamasu should be quite a bit more than double Goku's power so Goku using just the Kaioken shouldn't hage really had the effect that it had.

Unless he just called it Kaioken but it wasn't supposed to specifically be the times two Kaioken. Though I don't know if that's ever happened before, canon or not.

[HeroR]

If they'd have had Goku use the Kaioken x10 from the Kamehameha scene then it would have probably have appeased a lot of people.

Merged Zamasu should be quite a bit more than double Goku's power so Goku using just the Kaioken shouldn't hage really had the effect that it had.

Unless he just called it Kaioken but it wasn't supposed to specifically be the times two Kaioken. Though I don't know if that's ever happened before, canon or not.

I think they did a good job showing that although Goku hurt Merged Zamasu, he was so taxing that it literally wiped out his arms. Even then, Zamasu's halo didn't break until Goku kicked him with the Kaioken.

[dbgtFO]

Unless he just called it Kaioken but it wasn't supposed to specifically be the times two Kaioken. Though I don't know if that's ever happened before, canon or not.

It did in the Slug movie, if the accompanying blurb about Goku actually using KK x100, is to be believed.
The following two movies also have Goku use Kaio-ken without stating the level.

[ChiefWamsutta]

During the most-recent arc Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks fight Black and Zamasu.

At one point in the battle, Future Trunks transforms from SS2 into a new Super Saiyan form with yellow and blue ki. He then continues to use this form throughout the rest of the arc and becomes stronger i.e. through the Zenkai boost (when Goku and Vegeta went back home for Goku to learn the Mafuba and Mai snipes Black's earing).

At the first time we see Trunks transform where would you personally put this form's power level at?

A) Below SSG
B) Between SSG and SSB
C) Above SSB

[Bullza]

I just watched the episode again and here's a few thoughts.

- How is Goku able to kick him around like he did? Last episode Vegeta fires a blast at him and he didn't budge. He also effortlessly stopped Goku and Vegeta's charge with his hand.

- Zamasu should be above Goku using the Kaioken x10 in the U6 saga. The combined explosion from the Kamehameha and Zamasu's blast did not shatter his halo but one kick from Goku using Kaioken shattered it so he must have used more than just the x2 and just called it Kaioken for it to make sense.

- Trunks in base form sensed Vegito's energy yet didn't sense Vegeta's. Is this inconsistent or is the other one? Maybe that new form of his gave him God Ki and that's why and perhaps Whis' comment about them reaching the level to sense God Ki wasn't referring to power level.

- Vegito seemed to stomp Zamasu much more after he powered up so I don't know if he wasn't fighting seriously at first or what.

- The Final Kamehameha has pretty much no effect on Zamasu at all but somehow Trunks golden sword made from his energy was able to cut him and hurt much more.

- Trunks proved to be faster than Zamasu even though before he powered up he was about as fast as Vegito. Unless he lost speed bulking up it makes no sense.

- Trunks' Golden sword doesn't break under Zamasu's power though in the last episode he easily broke his normal sword so I suppose that this Golden sword is far more powerful. Which leads me to wonder why Trunk's sword was so damn tough when the Z Sword broke easily.

- Considering what Trunks did to Zamasu at the end I would have to say he was stronger than Vegito which doesn't make much sense at all.

- It's all make more sense if Vegito's boost was nerfed tremendously. Merged Zamasu did not seem drastically more powerful than Black so perhaps Vegito isn't drastically more powerful than Goku.

[MagmonKai]

Does anyone think if Trunks used that move against Beerus it would kill him too? I mean if he stole the Genki from the Main Timeline's earth which has more people on it, he could potentially defeat Beerus. Trunks the Destroyer of Gods...seriously I heard this guy might be getting his own TV show.

[apex_pretador]

1. Goku overclocked with the Kamemehama so him doing better than Vegeta+Trunks is not that much of a stretch. It was a maximum Kamehameha. The equivalent beam in amplification factor that Vegeta/Trunks have is the final flash, not the Gallick Gun.

2. Goku overpowering Zamasu’s ki ball and dealing damage to him was not unreasonable. It was a concentrated ki beam vs a large ki sphere. It was not a beam Vs beam struggle. Remember Omega Shenron (sorry Yī Xīng Lóng) in GT condensing his energy sphere into a smaller volume against Gogeta? Zamasu’s ki sphere was too large -it certainly had more energy than Goku’s Kamehameha but as it was over a much larger volume it’s totally possible that its energy density was smaller than Goku’s kamehama. As a result Goku’s Kamehameha could pierce through it like a 0.1kg iron nail on a 10kg wood board. And as this piercing was not something Zamasu was expecting it hit him on the face while he was off guard. And thus it dealt damage to him.

3. The Merged Zamasu that fought Vegetto was stronger than the one who had a beam struggle with Goku. After his "defeat" by Goku, merged Zamasu further powered up by getting stricken by the “light of justice”.

4. Vegetto weakened Zamasu and it wasn’t an even fight at all. Vegetto was clearly superior at least in terms of speed (stated). He kept pummelling Zamasu and he fired at him an ultimate Kamehameha. Gowasu previously said that in order to weaken Zamasu’s immortality he needs to get hit again by an even higher force than Goku’s Kamehameha and KK combo and that is exactly what happened. Also Vegetto commented on the fact that Zamasu now felt pain when he pierced him with his spirit spear – something he wasn’t feeling before. It was also stated that Zamasu’s complex emotions were affecting him too. In any case it is safe to say that by the time Trunks stepped in and was able to keep up with Merged Zamasu, Zamasu was already weakened.

5. You don't need to power up to give your energy to a Genki Dama. Goten and Trunks didn't turn SSJ1 or fused into Gotenks to turn SSJ3 in order to donate their Genki to the Genki Dama against kid Buu. So Goku and Vegeta donating while in base is fine.

6. The Genki sword working on Zamasu was probably not so much due to its power but due to the beautiful mortal emotions of hope it was containing interacting with Zamasu’s complex ugly emotions which were manifesting with his ugly purple form.

Genki Trunks/Vegetto Blue>Merged Justice Zamasu (full power)>> Enraged Super Trunks=KK Goku=Weakened Merged Justice Zamasu>Initial Merged Zamasu>SSJB Goku/Vegeta, Super Trunks

Good post, and let me add something - Vegetto would've killed merged Zamasu if he got another shot at him.

Does anyone think if Trunks used that move against Beerus it would kill him too? I mean if he stole the Genki from the Main Timeline's earth which has more people on it, he could potentially defeat Beerus. Trunks the Destroyer of Gods...seriously I heard this guy might be getting his own TV show.

Nope. Beerus doesn't have 2 parts trying to spring out away from each other unbalanced. Also, not only is even merged zamasu inferior to beerus, but also after getting weakened, Zamasu is far inferior to beerus.

[Marlowe89]

People are overcomplicating this.

Merged Zamasu is obviously much stronger than his unmerged counterparts because that's what Gowasu said. Goku might have hurt him using Kaioken, but we don't really know what multiplier he was using for the technique and even then it doesn't necessarily imply that he's stronger than (or even as strong as) Merged Zamasu. The scene where Zamasu calls upon the "light of justice" makes it clear to me that Merged Zamasu wasn't using his full power at first anyway.

Vegito Blue is stronger. He's not so much stronger that it's a stomp, but he's stronger to the degree that there's a noticeable difference between himself and Merged Zamasu. Genki Dama Super Trunks is even stronger than that.

That's basically the gist of it. Maybe Trunks was slowly transitioning into his Genki Dama form when the kids started placing their hopes in him, perhaps his golden sword signified the beginning of that transition - either way it's not important, his true feat wasn't until the end when he split Zamasu in two.

[HeroR]

I just watched the episode again and here's a few thoughts.

- How is Goku able to kick him around like he did? Last episode Vegeta fires a blast at him and he didn't budge. He also effortlessly stopped Goku and Vegeta's charge with his hand.

- Zamasu should be above Goku using the Kaioken x10 in the U6 saga. The combined explosion from the Kamehameha and Zamasu's blast did not shatter his halo but one kick from Goku using Kaioken shattered it so he must have used more than just the x2 and just called it Kaioken for it to make sense.

- Trunks in base form sensed Vegito's energy yet didn't sense Vegeta's. Is this inconsistent or is the other one? Maybe that new form of his gave him God Ki and that's why and perhaps Whis' comment about them reaching the level to sense God Ki wasn't referring to power level.

- Vegito seemed to stomp Zamasu much more after he powered up so I don't know if he wasn't fighting seriously at first or what.

- The Final Kamehameha has pretty much no effect on Zamasu at all but somehow Trunks golden sword made from his energy was able to cut him and hurt much more.

- Trunks proved to be faster than Zamasu even though before he powered up he was about as fast as Vegito. Unless he lost speed bulking up it makes no sense.

- Trunks' Golden sword doesn't break under Zamasu's power though in the last episode he easily broke his normal sword so I suppose that this Golden sword is far more powerful. Which leads me to wonder why Trunk's sword was so damn tough when the Z Sword broke easily.

- Considering what Trunks did to Zamasu at the end I would have to say he was stronger than Vegito which doesn't make much sense at all.

- It's all make more sense if Vegito's boost was nerfed tremendously. Merged Zamasu did not seem drastically more powerful than Black so perhaps Vegito isn't drastically more powerful than Goku.

- If you've noticed, when Goku attacked Merged Zamasu after his Kamehameha, Merged Zamasu had this stun, shock expression. In other words, he was too busy going, 'WTF just happened' to defend himself properly against Goku. A good example of this is when Goku bit Freeza's tail. Before that point, Goku couldn't even touch Freeza, and then he suddenly got several powerful blows on him.

- Goku is much stronger than he was during the U6 tournament. Is he 10x stronger, who knows, but you can't used how Goku was during the tournament since that isn't the same Goku who is fighting Merged Zamasu.

- When Trunks couldn't sense Vegeta, that was back in Episode 54 when he was only a Super Saiyan 2 and was nowhere near as strong as Vegeta or Goku. With his new transformation, he almost to their level so it make sense that he can sense them now, just like how Golden Freeza and Hit could sense a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Which also proves my point that I have been saying for months. Trunks' base form wasn't as strong as Goku or Vegeta's, otherwise he would have sensed god ki.

- Vegetto didn't start to stomp Merged Zamasu until he got big. Vegetto hinted that Merged Zamasu's power increased, but his speed tanked like Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks. Which is why he couldn't hit Vegetto, but still take a Final Kamehameha.

- Trunks' spirit sword is a slash attack that cut Merged Zamasu in half. Even then, it took Trunks several seconds to slide the blade up, so it wasn't a butter cut like Mecha Freeza.

- Merged Zamasu was literally falling apart near the end, as noted by the Supreme Kai and Gowasu. He wasn't near his peak when Trunks stepped in to fight him, and even then, Trunks was doing no long-term damaged until he got the spirit sword. He was only able to dodged Merged Zamasu since he sacrificed his speed for power.

- Nothing was said about Vegetto being weaker. Also, Gowasu and the Supreme Kai were shocked by how powerful Merged Zamasu was last episode, and they saw Goku Black fight.

[ZombieVito]

I just watched the episode again and here's a few thoughts.

- How is Goku able to kick him around like he did? Last episode Vegeta fires a blast at him and he didn't budge. He also effortlessly stopped Goku and Vegeta's charge with his hand.

- Zamasu should be above Goku using the Kaioken x10 in the U6 saga. The combined explosion from the Kamehameha and Zamasu's blast did not shatter his halo but one kick from Goku using Kaioken shattered it so he must have used more than just the x2 and just called it Kaioken for it to make sense.

- Trunks in base form sensed Vegito's energy yet didn't sense Vegeta's. Is this inconsistent or is the other one? Maybe that new form of his gave him God Ki and that's why and perhaps Whis' comment about them reaching the level to sense God Ki wasn't referring to power level.

- Vegito seemed to stomp Zamasu much more after he powered up so I don't know if he wasn't fighting seriously at first or what.

- The Final Kamehameha has pretty much no effect on Zamasu at all but somehow Trunks golden sword made from his energy was able to cut him and hurt much more.

- Trunks proved to be faster than Zamasu even though before he powered up he was about as fast as Vegito. Unless he lost speed bulking up it makes no sense.

- Trunks' Golden sword doesn't break under Zamasu's power though in the last episode he easily broke his normal sword so I suppose that this Golden sword is far more powerful. Which leads me to wonder why Trunk's sword was so damn tough when the Z Sword broke easily.

- Considering what Trunks did to Zamasu at the end I would have to say he was stronger than Vegito which doesn't make much sense at all.

- It's all make more sense if Vegito's boost was nerfed tremendously. Merged Zamasu did not seem drastically more powerful than Black so perhaps Vegito isn't drastically more powerful than Goku.

- Because Zamasu didn't put up a defense at all. He doesn't even move and once he does he breaks Goku's leg easily.
- I like to think about that halo in Pokemon terms. The Kamehameha lower his HP and the KK kick finished the remaining HP so it broke.
- Well Trunks reached god level with his new transformation so that could explain that.
- He wasn't since Zamasu powers up again and he's still superior.
- We don't know that. He could have regenerated before he jumped.
- When has anyone not lost speed when they bulked up like that?
- Z Sword? What?
- Or Vegetto weakened Zamasu a great deal. Trunks also doesn't need to be stronger than Zamasu to cut him in half.
- The boost was nerfed. Maybe both fighters need to be on par to get the maximum effect of the portara. That would explain why Kibitoshin is weak.

Marlowe89 is right. People are overcomplicating things.

[ssbgoku]

About Beerus vs mortals or any Kaioshin so far, well Beerus of course is stronger and they even stated it in the lastest interview or somewhere where They put Goku Black as second one. However here people we are dealing with Fusion which is special case, at least as long as Akira didn't loose his full memory, which I hope he hasn't yet or people working with him can point out that to him. This saying, I would like to point my points why Merged Zamasu or Ssb vegitto are > beerus

1) Fusions are expections and something extraordinary as no every threat is going to bring them out. It also presents how mortals using fusion could even suprass stronger God while being just himself.

2) Vegeta comment about The strongest ki he has sensed about Black Zamasu. Also Goku not correcting him

3) Merged Zamasu holding back while dealing with mortals and Gowasu and Supreme Kai pointed out this fact as eariler they mentioned how incredible powerfull Black Zamasu is and that it takes more power then mortals can dish out to have chance against Merged Zamasu

4) Haloo behind his head would point out and symbolize reaching level of angels albeit low tier, also due to collision in body he was getting weaker and weaker.

5) Black Zamasu comfortably blocking both ssb goku and ssb vegeta attacks without moving and putting same stance as whis while training with them point out rather to Merged Zamasu being above Beerus at least

6) Rage and powering up Black Zamasu after goku used Kaioken kick against him brought chills on my body and everyone was scared which shows at least Beerus's level threat as fusion was only option

7) Ssb Vegitto is even stronger then Black Zamasu and potara imply about multiplication of both characters like goku and Vegeta

Sole reason for Akira to limit vegitto was to show that fusion is indeed special case and altough make them above beerus and threat to whis, it still last too short to be used every time to deal with gods

Well, that it;p. I just hope Akira didn't pull troll on us with Beerus being above because then Super is just bunch of fanservice and Spirit/mortal Trunks is whis level at least

[Bullza]

Goku is much stronger than he was during the U6 tournament. Is he 10x stronger, who knows, but you can't used how Goku was during the tournament since that isn't the same Goku who is fighting Merged Zamasu.

Even aside from that Merged Zamasu was supposed to be stronger than Black and Zamasu together. There's no way that just the Kaioken x2 would have had the effect that it seemed to have. There was more power behind that one kick than Goku's arm wrecking full powered Kamehameha and Zamasu's pretty serious attack.

When Trunks couldn't sense Vegeta, that was back in Episode 54 when he was only a Super Saiyan 2 and was nowhere near as strong as Vegeta or Goku. With his new transformation, he almost to their level so it make sense that he can sense them now, just like how Golden Freeza and Hit could sense a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Which also proves my point that I have been saying for months. Trunks' base form wasn't as strong as Goku or Vegeta's, otherwise he would have sensed god ki.

But he was in his base form when he was able to sense Vegito which would have been weaker than when he was a SSJ2 and when he couldn't sense Vegeta. He was also as strong if not stronger than Goku when both were in their SSJ2 forms so it doesn't make any sense for his base form to be weaker than Goku's who can sense God Ki in Base form.

So you've got a Base Goku who can sense God Ki, a much stronger SSJ2 Goku who can't sense God Ki and then a much weaker Base Trunks who can sense God Ki. So the strength part being a factor doesn't make any sense unless he was only able to sense God Ki after obtaining that power for himself upon acquiring his new form.

Vegetto hinted that Merged Zamasu's power increased, but his speed tanked like Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks.

Well all he said was that Zamasu's body seeped with rage couldn't keep up with Vegito's speed. It doesn't necessarily mean that his speed decreased, it's very possible because of what happened with Trunks and Cell but it could just be that Vegito increased his speed instead.

Trunks' spirit sword is a slash attack that cut Merged Zamasu in half.

I mean the Golden sword which he was able to cut that cross across Zamasu's chest. That sword was just made from his own power and it left a bigger mark and seemed to do more damage than the Final Kamehameha that did no visible damage as he flew out of it smiling.

Merged Zamasu was literally falling apart near the end, as noted by the Supreme Kai and Gowasu. He wasn't near his peak when Trunks stepped in to fight him, and even then, Trunks was doing no long-term damaged until he got the spirit sword.

That was said prior to Zamasu tanking a Final Kamehameha to no effect. Within a couple minutes of that Trunks powered up and killed him with even more powerful attacks. So Trunks was even more powerful than Vegito at the end there. Zamasu also commented about how it was "such energy" which would imply it was more than anything Vegito dished out.

Nothing was said about Vegetto being weaker.

No he wouldn't be weaker. The form just wouldnt have the same increase in power that it had in the Buu saga when based on some mathematical numbers and calculations in some old Daizenshuu guide that likely nobody involved in the making of this episode had any involvement with.

[Bullza]

Because Zamasu didn't put up a defense at all. He doesn't even move and once he does he breaks Goku's leg easily.

He didn't put up a defense against Vegeta's blast either. Vegeta fires a small volley of blasts directly at him with his arms down and he doesn't budge or show any signs of pain at all. In this episode though Goku flies right up to him and kicks him around briefly. You could say he was stunned or something I guess but it's a little odd.

Well Trunks reached god level with his new transformation so that could explain that.

He was already stronger than God level though because he was comparable to Goku when they fought as Super Saiyans. Vegeta at the very beginning of the Resurrection F saga in base form has reached the level where he could sense God Ki and Trunks was stronger than that especially with his Super Saiyan forms and yet he couldn't. So perhaps this idea of what Whis said about them reaching a level where they could sense God Ki having to do something with battle power is something we're misinterpreting.

When has anyone not lost speed when they bulked up like that?

Well there's Broly.

Z Sword? What?

Yeah in the Buu saga the Z Sword was supposed to be some legendary sword and yet it broke easily when Goku threw the block at it. So why is Trunks' sword so tough? It's blocked attacks from Black and his Ki blade and it remained intact.

Or Vegetto weakened Zamasu a great deal.

There wasn't much of a sign of that if that was the case. He went from being hit with a Final Kamehameha to seemingly no effect at one moment and then shortly after Trunks is able to hurt him with a sword made up of his own power which you'd think wouldn't even scratch him to then getting the spirit sword which does much more damage and causes Zamasu to comment on the power of it.

I would probably say Trunks was packing more power than Vegito at the end there, it was the final move after all and was what killed him. I think people will absolutely hate the idea and try to find some excuse for why it's not that way just from the sheer idea of Trunks > Vegito but I do think that's how it's supposed to be viewed, odd or not.

[Noah]

Don't you guys think that Vegetto have weakened Merged Zamasu is kinda BS? The guy just receive a Final Kamehameha like it was nothing, Zamasu showed no signs of weakening at all