Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

- How do you know there was more power behind the Kaioken kick then the Kamehameha? As far as we know, all the damaged Merged Zamasu took added up so it was the combination of being hit by the Kamehameha and then kicked in the faced by the Kaioken that did him in. And Merged Zamasu didn't seem to go into his full power until his mutated since before that moment, he was perfectly happy floating and spamming energy attacks like a RPG boss.

- Trunks' base probably got a bump when he transformed or he got an idea of what god felt like after gaining his unique form. I also have no clue what you're talking about with Super Saiyan 2 Goku being unable to sensed god energy. And we've been through this, Trunks was never as strong as Goku in his Super Saiyan forms. You're the only one who kept thinking that even when it was obvious that Goku did nothing but blocked Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' attacks, didn't move, and wasn't harmed at all. The fact that he couldn't sensed god ki until he got a form that was up to par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan proves it.

- Up until he bulked up, he was able to keep up with Vegetto just find and tagged him. It's obviously that Merged Zamasu's speed took a hit, just like Cell when he bulked up against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. It just wasn't as one-sided since Merged Zamasu is still powerful.

- The golden sword cut him, but he almost instantly healed. So it literally did no lasting damaged to him.

- Merged Zamasu was gradually getting weaker and Trunks took advantage of it. I don't know why this is so hard to understand when you have the characters themselves telling you what is going on. Plus, you're comparing Trunks fighting a weakened Merged Zamasu along with him absorbing a Spirit Bomb. If Vegito did the same thing, he probably would have cut Merged Zamasu in half faster than Trunks.

- Why would it have the same increase in power that it had in the Buu Saga? It's the same fusion method and they even used the same earrings from U7's Kai. What the Daizenshuu said or doesn't say doesn't really matter since no official numbers were ever given for Vegetto. The only official thing about Vegetto was that Super Saiyan Vegetto was vastly stronger than Super Buu after he absorbed Gohan.

[Marlowe89]

So perhaps this idea of what Whis said about them reaching a level where they could sense God Ki having to do something with battle power is something we're misinterpreting.

There's nothing to misinterpret. Trunks couldn't sense God ki in Episode 54, so he wasn't on that level as per Whis' words. Period.

To suggest it's somehow coincidental that most of the U6 fighters and Trunks not being able to sense God ki in the anime lines up perfectly with the manga where all of those characters were also below God tier is just being plainly obtuse about the intended power scale in Super.

[TheMikado]

So perhaps this idea of what Whis said about them reaching a level where they could sense God Ki having to do something with battle power is something we're misinterpreting.

There's nothing to misinterpret. Trunks couldn't sense God ki in Episode 54, so he wasn't on that level as per Whis' words. Period.

To suggest it's somehow coincidental that most of the U6 fighters and Trunks not being able to sense God ki in the anime lines up perfectly with the manga where all of those characters were also below God tier is just being plainly obtuse about the intended power scale in Super.

Him suddenly sensing SSB Vegito doesnt make much sense either when they specifically had an episode about how he couldn't sense God ki.

[Bullza]

There's nothing to misinterpret. Trunks couldn't sense God ki in Episode 54, so he wasn't on that level as per Whis' words. Period.

There's every chance of it being misinterpreted as he was stronger than the Base Vegeta from back in Episode 16 or 17 who could sense it.

[HeroR]

There's nothing to misinterpret. Trunks couldn't sense God ki in Episode 54, so he wasn't on that level as per Whis' words. Period.

There's every chance of it being misinterpreted as he was stronger than the Base Vegeta from back in Episode 16 or 17 who could sense it.

It was never once stated or implied that Trunks' base form was stronger than Vegeta. That was only you because you thought Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

There is no misinterpretation. Trunks couldn't sense God ki, meaning until recently, he was weaker than Vegeta from Episodes 16 and 17.

[Marlowe89]

There's every chance of it being misinterpreted as he was stronger than the Base Vegeta from back in Episode 16 or 17 who could sense it.

Whis specifically said Goku and Vegeta had just barely reached the level where they can sense God ki and then made the analogy about how they were a tree compared to Beerus being a castle.

There's literally no other way of interpreting that, you're just in denial of what Toei presented to you as well as what the vast majority of viewers were going to get from that scene. Trunks was simply weaker than the Vegeta from Episode 16 and 17.

[Bullza]

How do you know there was more power behind the Kaioken kick then the Kamehameha?

The power of Zamasu's blast and Vegeta and Trunks' Galick Gun exploding was stopped by his hand with little to no damage to show for it. The power of Zamasu's larger blast and Goku's full power Kamehameha exploding messed up his face but there were no signs of his halo being damages, not a crack. Goku uses the Kaioken, he kicks him into the ground and it breaks. So if I were to know then it'd be because that's what they showed.

Trunks' base probably got a bump when he transformed or he got an idea of what god felt like after gaining his unique form.

Never known of anything like the former happening before. The latter is much more likely.

And we've been through this, Trunks was never as strong as Goku in his Super Saiyan forms. You're the only one who kept thinking that even when it was obvious that Goku did nothing but blocked Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' attacks, didn't move, and wasn't harmed at all. The fact that he couldn't sensed god ki until he got a form that was up to par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan proves it.

That's bull and doesn't prove anything. He was strong enough to push Super Saiyan 2 Goku back while he himself was still holding back. Goku had to turn into a Super Saiyan 3 to deal with him. You think he went from being weaker than Goku's Super Saiyan forms to being able to fight against Super Saiyan Blue level opponents in like a days worth of image training? You already know that in the manga that Trunks is comparable to or stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

The golden sword cut him, but he almost instantly healed. So it literally did no lasting damaged to him.

But it did still cut him. If Zamasu can tank a Final Kamehameha like it was nothing because there were no signs of him being damaged then it's a bit odd that a sword just from Trunks' power would be able to even scratch him.

Merged Zamasu was gradually getting weaker and Trunks took advantage of it. I don't know why this is so hard to understand when you have the characters themselves telling you what is going on. Plus, you're comparing Trunks fighting a weakened Merged Zamasu along with him absorbing a Spirit Bomb. If Vegito did the same thing, he probably would have cut Merged Zamasu in half faster than Trunks.

There'd be a point there is Vegito had blasted him with the Final Kamehameha first and then Gowasu made a comment about him falling apart but he made the comment first and then Vegito fired the attack to no real affect and then within moments Trunks was doing this stuff and powered up and killed him. If Vegito had absorbed the spirit bomb then yes he would be stronger but otherwise the Trunks who absorbed it comes across as being the stronger of the two.

[buutenks]

God ki business? Well, ep 66 pretty much proves that Trunks before his power ups, was to weak to sense god ki, even as a full power ssj2.

Basically, the way i see it:

Current base Trunks>FPssj2 Trunks who got one shotted by ssj3 Goku and got thrown around like a ragdoll by a not so serious ssj blue Vegeta.

So i see it as like this as a whole:

Super Trunks(current)>ssj Blue Goku/vegeta>ssj3 Goku=fpssj2 Trunks(current)>ssj2 Vegeta/Goku>ssj Goku/Vegeta>base Trunks=base Goku/Vegeta>fpssj2 Trunks(ep 49-54)

Basically, i think ssj2 Goku was just messing around with Trunks and he could have beaten him in base form if he wanted to.

[ZombieVito]

God ki business? Well, ep 66 pretty much proves that Trunks before his power ups, was to weak to sense god ki, even as a full power ssj2.

Basically, the way i see it:

Current base Trunks>FPssj2 Trunks who got one shotted by ssj3 Goku and got thrown around like a ragdoll by a not so serious ssj blue Vegeta.

So i see it as like this as a whole:

Super Trunks(current)>ssj Blue Goku/vegeta>ssj3 Goku=fpssj2 Trunks(current)>ssj2 Vegeta/Goku>ssj Goku/Vegeta>base Trunks=base Goku/Vegeta>fpssj2 Trunks(ep 49-54)

Basically, i think ssj2 Goku was just messing around with Trunks and he could have beaten him in base form if he wanted to.

This is sounding to much like the two base theory for me.

I actually want Piccolo or Gohan to be compared to Boo or Gotenks next arc. That should confirm that theory once and for all.

[Bullza]

There's every chance of it being misinterpreted as he was stronger than the Base Vegeta from back in Episode 16 or 17 who could sense it.

Whis specifically said Goku and Vegeta had just barely reached the level where they can sense God ki and then made the analogy about how they were a tree compared to Beerus being a castle.

There's literally no other way of interpreting that, you're just in denial of what Toei presented to you as well as what the vast majority of viewers were going to get from that scene. Trunks was simply weaker than the Vegeta from Episode 16 and 17.

You just brought up about the anime lined up with the manga. The manga showed Trunks to be on a comparable level to Goku in his Super Saiyan forms and the anime shows something similar. You'd be suggesting then that they actually don't line up at all because Trunks wasn't comparable to Goku in his Super Saiyan forms in the manga despite what was shown but was actually much weaker than his base form.

There's no way he's weaker than Vegeta back then. From that point on both he and Goku grew a lot stronger by the time they fought Frieza, grew stronger throughout the time spent in the ROSAT, grew stronger after the tournament. As you said Goku got tens of times stronger transforming into Super Saiyan 2, would be even stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 and Black is stronger still. Yet Trunks was briefly able to hold his own against him, took several attacks and stayed conscious and even forced him to put up his guard something Merged Zamasu didn't have to do for Vegeta.

He's able to react to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's speed and dodge him initially unlike Cabba who didn't even know what hit him even as a Super Saiyan. Cabba was much weaker in Base form but Vegeta said they were even. If Vegeta in Episode 16 was strong enough to be able to sense God Ki then Cabba, Frost and Magetta would all be able to aswell though you say they can't.

To say he's weaker than Vegeta from Episode 16 would be to say that SSJ2 Trunks would be much weaker than all of these characters despite the opposite being shown.

Then there's be the question of how he went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to strong enough to get one over on Super Saiyan Rose Black and Zamasu in like a day.

[Razorsaw]

Then there's be the question of how he went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to strong enough to get one over on Super Saiyan Rose Black and Zamasu in like a day.

Saiyan heritage + being really really REALLY pissed off.

[Marlowe89]

You just brought up about the anime lined up with the manga. The manga showed Trunks to be on a comparable level to Goku in his Super Saiyan forms and the anime shows something similar. You'd be suggesting then that they actually don't line up at all because Trunks wasn't comparable to Goku in his Super Saiyan forms in the manga despite what was shown but was actually much weaker than his base form.

There's no way he's weaker than Vegeta back then. From that point on both he and Goku grew a lot stronger by the time they fought Frieza, grew stronger throughout the time spent in the ROSAT, grew stronger after the tournament. As you said Goku got tens of times stronger transforming into Super Saiyan 2, would be even stronger as a Super Saiyan 3 and Black is stronger still. Yet Trunks was briefly able to hold his own against him, took several attacks and stayed conscious and even forced him to put up his guard something Merged Zamasu didn't have to do for Vegeta.

He's able to react to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's speed and dodge him initially unlike Cabba who didn't even know what hit him even as a Super Saiyan. Cabba was much weaker in Base form but Vegeta said they were even. If Vegeta in Episode 16 was strong enough to be able to sense God Ki then Cabba, Frost and Magetta would all be able to aswell though you say they can't.

As you might have already guessed, I'm personally a proponent of the two base interpretation (which I believe is suggested by a veritable number of things in the anime) in which case none of these "counterpoints" really pose a problem for me at all. SSB Vegeta was also blatantly going easy on Trunks.

In any matter, the point stands and you've utterly failed to address it:

"Whis specifically said Goku and Vegeta had just barely reached the level where they can sense God ki and then made the analogy about how they were a tree compared to Beerus being a castle."

There is literally no alternative way of interpreting this at all; Whis was clearly referring to their strength. The required level to sense God ki was barely reached by Vegeta but not reached by Trunks, and that's all there is to it.

[Bullza]

There is literally no alternative way of interpreting this fact at all; Whis was clearly referring to their strength. The required level to sense God ki was barely reached by Vegeta but not reached by Trunks, and that's all there is to it.

Which is contradictory with what most things that have happened and what I mentioned. Therefore what Whis said was wrong or there's more to it, it has to be one of the two. There is no two bases, that can't be used out of convenience to excuse everything else so forget that entirely.

If Vegeta in Episode 16/17 is at a level where he can sense God Ki and Cabba in Base form is evenly matched with a stronger Vegeta then it means he should be able to sense God Ki. After Vegeta realized he couldn't turn into a Super Saiyan he wonders why they'd let someone so weak into the Tournament which would mean he was at that point weaker than Frost and Magetta which would make sense because he transformed for them. So those two should be able to sense God Ki but you say that they can't.

Characters that are stronger than Base Vegeta in Episode 17 have been unable to sense God Ki, that's just a fact.

In the manga there was no indication that Hit could sense God Ki nor Golden Frieza in the movie. It was much simpler when it was just a matter of mortals not being able to sense God Ki. Whis' comment was probably just some Toei thing which has now gone on to be proven inconsistent.

[MagmonKai]

To people saying that Merged Zamasu got weaker towards the end, I remind you that Goku black is inside of him and anytime Goku Black experienced "pain" he got stronger, not weaker. So if anything shouldn't Vegito made him stronger? So, by that logic Trunks > Vegito. Zamasu only lost the ability to heal after wounded not increase his power. One could argue that he lost both abilities. Thoughts?

[Hugo Boss]

To people saying that Merged Zamasu got weaker towards the end, I remind you that Goku black is inside of him and anytime Goku Black experienced "pain" he got stronger, not weaker. So if anything shouldn't Vegito made him stronger? So, by that logic Trunks > Vegito. Zamasu only lost the ability to heal after wounded not increase his power. One could argue that he lost both abilities. Thoughts?

Zamasu's physiology is half-Saiyan and during his battle with Vegetto he got stronger, but he lost speed and the repeated attacks from Vegetto made his performance lowering little by little. That's why we get the impression Vegetto was about to finish him off when the fusion ran out of energy. His half-holy side prevented the body from dying immediately but the mortal side made it impossible to regenerate and keep the balance. I would say Zamasu reached his peak just before Vegetto pierced him with his own version of ki blade and from then on he started losing ground.

[Marlowe89]

Which is contradictory with what most things that have happened and what I mentioned. Therefore what Whis said was wrong or there's more to it, it has to be one of the two. There is no two bases, that can't be used out of convenience to excuse everything else so forget that entirely.

It's not contradictory to anything. At all, really. The series has already demonstrably shown the technical existence of two bases so I don't really have to justify it, but even if we disregard it entirely (which is perfectly fine, for the sake of the argument) every one of your counterpoints have been incredibly weak at best and based more on what you personally want to see rather than what's actually shown: Trunks didn't do anything worthwhile before the three of them returned to the future to fight Black. The one time Goku put forth any effort during his sparring match with Trunks, he literally one-shotted him like he was nothing. Vegeta was toying with him by his own admission. Even Trunks himself didn't think he held much of a candle to them before finally resolving to one day surpass them. There's also that bit when Trunks is amazed by how powerful God ki is and it makes him speculate that Goku must have used it to do battle with the God of Destruction, which only happened in BoG to our knowledge.

If what Whis said was true - and no rational person has any reason to believe Toei was just lying to us - then Trunks was not God tier before returning to the future and (presumably) obtaining his Super form. That's it. Point blank. The end.

Whis' comment was probably just some Toei thing which has now gone on to be proven inconsistent.

Well, I'm glad that you at least saved me the trouble of knowing whether to take you even remotely seriously, since you just throw out whatever's inconvenient for your viewpoint that's already directly at odds with what the series conveys. I eagerly await the day that something else comes up and you call that an "outlier" too because it doesn't fit with whatever bullshit you've been spewing in regards to the power levels. Have fun with that I guess.

[Bullza]

It's not contradictory to anything.

It is contradictory. You said most of the Universe 6 contestants could not sense God Ki. It's said that Base Cabba is on equal terms with Base Vegeta. If a weaker Base Vegeta is at a level he can sense God Ki but Base Cabba cannot then that is contradictory. There's no two ways about it and he was one of the weaker ones at the time so almost of all them should be able to sense it.

Trunks held his own against Black and forced him to defend himself, you would suggest Black would be tens maybe even hundreds of times stronger than Trunks though. Taking their fight into consideration and how powerful Black was supposed to be then there's no confusion on why Trunks would be able to force Goku back in his SSJ2 form while Trunks was still holding back or why he received Beerus' praise. In the manga Trunks is also stronger than SSJ2 Goku so the anime and manga would be inline which was something you said before but are now saying the opposite of.

Well, I'm glad that you at least saved me the trouble of knowing whether to take you even remotely seriously, since you just throw out whatever's inconvenient for your viewpoint that's already directly at odds with what the series conveys. I eagerly await the day that something else comes up and you call that an "outlier" too because it doesn't fit with whatever bullshit you've been spewing in regards to the power levels. Have fun with that I guess.

That didn't stop you from writing off the whole Beerus unrestrained attacks comment or Beerus' comment about Goku getting much stronger because it was inconvenient for your viewpoint so there's no point going there. Hasn't stopped countless people on here from writing off the Beerus 10% comment either or other things so there's no real need for the cocky attitude is there?

The series never conveyed that Trunks grew incredibly more powerful before going back into the future, never mind becoming hundreds of times of times stronger. No he was shown to do a little image training and resolved to beat Black and that was it. So he went from being weaker than Base Goku to strong enough to be comparable to Future Zamasu in a day or two without him getting stronger?

There's obviously an issue with Whis' comment. Again you speak of the anime and manga being inline but there was nothing about Hit being able to sense God Ki in the manga so that's not inline is it? This idea of being at a certain level to be able to sense God Ki isn't a thing in the manga nor was it in the movies, they seem to be going by the original idea that mortals just can't sense God Ki. That idea would make sense with Trunks not being able to sense God Ki, the idea behind Whis' comment does not make sense.

[DBZ Macky]

Maybe Goku and Vegeta were able to sense God Ki because they were training to be Gods themselves?
Freeza and Hit seem to know a lot and have a lot of experience, perhaps they have learnt the technique to sense God Ki?

Also, if Cabba and Base Vegeta were equal, and Godly Ki sensing is based on one's battle power, then that favors the "Two-Base Theory" even more

[HeroR]

Maybe Goku and Vegeta were able to sense God Ki because they were training to be Gods themselves?
Freeza and Hit seem to know a lot and have a lot of experience, perhaps they have learnt the technique to sense God Ki?

Also, if Cabba and Base Vegeta were equal, and Godly Ki sensing is based on one's battle power, then that favors the "Two-Base Theory" even more

Goku could sense god ki before he trained with Whis thanks to absorbing Super Saiyan God. Freeza couldn't even sense ki at all until he trained himself, yet he reached a level where he can sense god ki. Cabba made no comment about if he could sense Vegeta or not as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So we don't know if he could sense him or not. We only knew Hit could sense he correctly guess the multiplier of Goku's Kaioken.

[Bullza]

It's all an inconsistent mess, I don't know if it's because of different writers or what. It's confused people ever since Battle of Gods came out because King Kai said mortals can't sense Gods but Goku can sense King Kai and he's a God.

Then they say they need to be at a certain level to be able to sense God Ki but then characters at or above this level can't sense it like Frieza or Trunks. This rule apparently doesn't apply to those with it already though because Dende can sense Beerus. Golden Frieza and Hit can seemingly sense it in the one version but not the other.

The Oracle Fish mentions that Whis has God Ki even though he's not a God but an Angel and Beerus even said he's not a deity so why does he have God Ki?

SSJ2 Trunks can't sense Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta but he can sense Black beforehand no problem and Black is supposed to have pretty much the same Ki as Zamasu going by what Beerus and Whis said and Zamasu has God Ki. Then he can somehow sense it in his weaker Base form in the last episode now too so whether that means he obtained God Ki with that new form or something else I dunno.

It's just all over the place.