Let's talk about Trunks...

[The Monkey King]

I don't think I've ever known a fanbase that's opinions on a show in general are affected so much by power levels in it. Not specifically referring to this topic or even this forum, it's just something with this fanbase in general.

For example if they had Piccolo and Gohan show up and they fought Black and it was a really good entertaining fight scene, fantastic animation, one of the best fights in all the franchise. Instead of people enjoying it though people would be ripping the show and Toriyama because "but power levels!". You'd be likely to see more people criticizing it for that than praising it for how good it was.

It would be lazy garbage writing and so rightfully criticised by its fanbase

Does it really matter? It was a fantastic scene, arguably one of the best scenes in the series. Very entertaining actually and I watch the scene over on Youtube every now and then. I certainly don't let the fact that Trunks was able to do this and questioning the writing behind it stop me from really enjoying the scene.

Trunks got a new form. The scene where he obtained it was cool, it looks cool, it was involved in several scenes of the anime that were pretty cool. It'll probably be a playable character in video games in the future. Is it really that important to know what it specifically is? It's just a new more powerful form.

It matters a lot actually, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

The arc clearly portrays that these enemies are leagues beyond Trunks in the 1st episode of the arc. And now we're supposed to believe that he can go toe-to-toe with said enemies and God level allies?
Nah, that's just trash writing.

It's a problem apparently that Trunks was able to use the Spirit Bomb that Goku had to train months to learn but it's perfectly fine for Master Roshi to have learnt and perfected the Kamehameha in 50 years and for Goku to do it in 50 seconds. Let's not wait to see if anything is explained about it in the next episode, let's rip it apart before the possible explanations instead.

1. At least Goku saw the Kamehameha
2. Goku comes from an alien race who are naturally adept at utilising their ki in order to fire off beams of energy.

Trunks' case was just one of the biggest asspulls in the series.

It's a kids anime that's meant for entertainment, it's not supposed to be over analysed and studied to the point that you go out of your way to find holes in it which just ruins the show for you.

Dragon Ball was just a kid's comic book and it was written leagues better than the pile of garbage that is Dragon Ball Super.

Honestly it's great for you that you're so easily satisfied with awful writing, but some of us actually want the show we want to have both style and substance.

As for your posts about Black I agree with you, but in this thread we're talking about Trunks

[Bullza]

It would be lazy garbage writing and so rightfully criticised by its fanbase

Proving my point that more people would care about "ma power levels!" then a spectacularly animated action scene, the best in the franchises 30 years of history.

And now we're supposed to believe that he can go toe-to-toe with said enemies and God level allies?

Yeah...because he powered up since then...that's usually how weak characters are eventually able to combat much stronger characters, they power up.

At least Goku saw the Kamehameha

So? He still learnt it in seconds what it took Roshi 50 years to master but it's a problem that Trunks does a move that Goku took less than 3 months to master. He didn't do the spirit bomb willingly, it happened of it's own accord and it could easily be explained in the next episode making it so that as usual people jumped the gun before waiting to find out more.

Dragon Ball was just a kid's comic book and it was written leagues better than the pile of garbage that is Dragon Ball Super.

Yet still had plot holes and ass pulls just the same.

[TheMikado]

I'm late to this party but the OP is spot on. If you thought DB and DBZ were all about flashy battles than I would say you're the worst type/not a true fan. DBZ in particular was popular in part due to the development the characters endured to reach new heights. Giving the advancements away like candy when the series has historically been much better about the characters learning hard lessons is a slap to the fan base. Otherwise this might as well be fairy tail, bleach, or any other shonen that will be forgotten in a few years. I will state I'm not a fan of Trunks having so many different techniques and no new ones of his own he mastered.

[Kaio-Kienzan]

I didn't think I'd want any character to fuck off from a story more than Nick Fury in Age of Ultron but whoo boy, Trunks definitely earns that coveted position.

Can I please sig this man? Its comedy gold

[ekrolo2]

I didn't think I'd want any character to fuck off from a story more than Nick Fury in Age of Ultron but whoo boy, Trunks definitely earns that coveted position.

Can I please sig this man? Its comedy gold

Of course!

[PsionicWarrior]

Dragon Ball was just a kid's comic book and it was written leagues better than the pile of garbage that is Dragon Ball Super.

Yet still had plot holes and ass pulls just the same.

sigh why people stubbornly want to believe asspulls from Z are the same than in Super's lol

if it were the case people wouldn't complain to that extent lol

[The Monkey King]

Proving my point that more people would care about "ma power levels!" then a spectacularly animated action scene, the best in the franchises 30 years of history.

It's not just about Power Levels it's stupid writing. It sounds as though you'd be happy if Raditz came out of nowhere and started kicking the shit out of Black just because it had good animation.

Honestly you have no right to criticise anyone's taste about Dragon Ball, just keep your low standards to yourself and don't try and shame anyone else for not sharing them.

Yeah...because he powered up since then...that's usually how weak characters are eventually able to combat much stronger characters, they power up.

Ok so why didn't he "just power up" when Black had been kicking his ass for God knows how long?
Because Trunks' power up had no catalyst or explanation you can't answer give than an in-universe answer. It's bad writing.

So? He still learnt it in seconds what it took Roshi 50 years to master but it's a problem that Trunks does a move that Goku took less than 3 months to master.

It's still nowhere near as bad.
Let's compare Goku and Roshi's Kamehameha. Roshi's destroyed a mountain while Goku's damaged a car even though Goku just learnt it their attacks were nowhere near the same calibur therefore the difference in power between Goku and Roshi is kept consistent.
Roshi's Kamehameha >>>>>>>>> Goku's Kamehameha

Meanwhile Trunks Super Spirit Sword bullshit defeated Zamasu the 1st time he used it. It was only the 3rd time Goku used the Spirit Bomb is when he managed to defeat an enemy with it.
Not to mention his bullshit attack had zero downsides unlike anytime Goku had to use it as I listed in my OP.
Trunks' Spirit Asspull >>>>>> Goku's Spirit Bomb.

Also the amount of time it takes for someone to invent something and someone else to copy it is usually leagues apart, just look at any major invention in history.
Therefore your comparison between the two events is a case of false equivalence

He didn't do the spirit bomb willingly, it happened of it's own accord and it could easily be explained in the next episode making it so that as usual people jumped the gun before waiting to find out more.

Super explaining things? Don't hold your breath

Yet still had plot holes and ass pulls just the same.

It did indeed but not anywhere near the level of Super's shit show.

[Bullza]

It's not just about Power Levels it's stupid writing. It sounds as though you'd be happy if Raditz came out of nowhere and started kicking the shit out of Black just because it had good animation.

That's an exaggeration of my point. It always come down topower levels, no other fanbase it so obsessed with it as they are the Dragon Ball fanbase. It's got to the extent where the show has stupid writing because people think characters fictional power level isnt as high as it should be.

We know why Trunks was able to fight them like he did so it's not stupid writing.

Ok so why didn't he "just power up" when Black had been kicking his ass for God knows how long?

He likely did power up, clearly not enough though until after he trained in the present.

Let's compare Goku and Roshi's Kamehameha. Roshi's destroyed a mountain while Goku's damaged a car even though Goku just learnt it their attacks were nowhere near the same calibur therefore the difference in power between Goku and Roshi is kept consistent.

That comes down to their personal power level at the time. The Spirit Bomb is a separate entity that's not linked to an individual characters power so there's no reason why a spirit bomb for Trunks couldn't be more powerful than it is for Goku.

Super explaining things? Don't hold your breath

So it's better to criticise it at the first chance before even waiting to see what might be explained? They might explain and they might not.

[PsionicWarrior]

It always come down topower levels, no other fanbase it so obsessed with it as they are the Dragon Ball fanbase.

Well, like I was telling you in the first page of the thread already, maybe it's because the Dragon Ball franchise has been mainly built around power levels lol

[Boo Machine]

It always come down topower levels, no other fanbase it so obsessed with it as they are the Dragon Ball fanbase.

Well, like I was telling you in the first page of the thread already, maybe it's because the Dragon Ball franchise has been mainly built around power levels lol

Power? I say sure. Power levels as in hard math? I'd have to disagree. I don't feel like Dragonball has ever cared for RPG like stats or charts.

[PsionicWarrior]

You're just playing on semantics here, I have made it clear in earlier posts and other people outlined it too lol

[Boo Machine]

Well people go on about how important details are in this franchise. I just figured asking about the difference between Power and Power levels was important is all.

[PsionicWarrior]

Sorry I didn't mean to be rude or anything, HERE is an earlier post explaining very well the matter on power levels in context lol

[Boo Machine]

I'm aware how context helps a situation. I've also acknowledged how Trunks form is out of nowhere.

I might be getting off topic with this but , my confusion is more about the term "power level" itself and how it's being used. Especially since Power level wasn't even a term Dragon Ball used until Scouters were a thing and went out the door when they stopped being a thing. Unless I'm not remembering correctly.

When I think of the term "power level" I think about where it or "Battle power" came from. The use of the scouters. Which were used to assign hard numbers to somebody that ultimately didn't matter due to the characters "Power" fluctuating at any given moment for whatever reason.

Is it being used like "Guy A's number is higher than Guy B's number so Guy B should go work on increasing his number then come back and numbers his opponent to death?" or is that an over simplification?

[TBMx]

It would be lazy garbage writing and so rightfully criticised by its fanbase

Proving my point that more people would care about "ma power levels!" then a spectacularly animated action scene, the best in the franchises 30 years of history.

And now we're supposed to believe that he can go toe-to-toe with said enemies and God level allies?

Yeah...because he powered up since then...that's usually how weak characters are eventually able to combat much stronger characters, they power up.

At least Goku saw the Kamehameha

So? He still learnt it in seconds what it took Roshi 50 years to master but it's a problem that Trunks does a move that Goku took less than 3 months to master. He didn't do the spirit bomb willingly, it happened of it's own accord and it could easily be explained in the next episode making it so that as usual people jumped the gun before waiting to find out more.

Dragon Ball was just a kid's comic book and it was written leagues better than the pile of garbage that is Dragon Ball Super.

Yet still had plot holes and ass pulls just the same.

I don't think you understand. There isn't anything inherently wrong with asspulls. It can be a useful writing tool to surprise and impress the audience. As long as it's kept rare. Too many in too short a span of time and it unbalances the character and destroys the plausibility of the narrative. In writing 101, doesn't matter if it's for kids, is that a writer has to only use the tools he's set up to solve a conflict. Otherwise you get the issue of if Trunks could transform like that just because of anger, why didn't he do that before? If Trunks could make a ki sword or a spirit bomb sword, again, why didn't he do that before? Why only late on their third visit? Japanese children are actually rigourously educated and aren't stupid. That's why as writers, asspulls have to be rare. If the audience starts to notice the asspulls, than as a writer you've failed. There's no getting around that. And there were other ways of doing it that didnt rely on such contrivance.

-We already have to swallow that he learned the Galick Gun and Final Flash after a few days training with Vegeta.
-We have to swallow that as a ssj2 he can actually back Goku up and survive the Rose Kamehameha with as much damage as Goku Blue.
- We have to swallow that he learned the Mafuba from a video when it took Goku all night with Master Roshi on hand. A character that makes the MC look slow is a hallmark of Mary Sue.
- We have to swallow that his new transformation has better feats than Pre ROSAT Vegeta Blue.
- We have to swallow that he knows the ki sword technique yet never used it before. One strong enough to block fused Zamasu's blade. Who had just survived the Final Kamehameha with ease.
- We have to swallow that he can do a spirit bomb by accident, focus it into his sword by accident, and control all that ki.
- We have to swallow that afew dozen survivors, a weakened base Goku and Vegeta and Trunks > Fused Zamasu (Black x Zamasu's powerlevel)

Mistakes are cumulative while the audience's tolerance for mistakes are finite. That's way too much in too short a time frame. And the problem isn't about the show losing money. Not in the short term anyway. It's about losing longevity. Losing rewatch value. Media that's written this way are always flash in the pans. DB and DBZ are classics. I assure you, Dragonball Super won't be.

[Bullza]

We already have to swallow that he learned the Galick Gun and Final Flash after a few days training with Vegeta.

Nothing wrong with that because like I said there's been characters who've pulled out moves after just seeing them the once, mainly with the Kamehameha.

We have to swallow that as a ssj2 he can actually back Goku up and survive the Rose Kamehameha with as much damage as Goku Blue.

It'd just mean that he wnt from being in between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 Goku to being in between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue Goku. The difference between these forms isn't all that clear.

We have to swallow that he learned the Mafuba from a video when it took Goku all night with Master Roshi on hand. A character that makes the MC look slow is a hallmark of Mary Sue.

I suppose that one is true but being as the mafuba had no real significance in the end with it not being the technique that finished them off then it's not that big of a deal.

We have to swallow that his new transformation has better feats than Pre ROSAT Vegeta Blue.

What's wrong with that? If he weren't miles off from being about that level beforehand then if he got a new transformation that's much stronger then why can't it be stronger than SSJB Vegeta?

We have to swallow that he knows the ki sword technique yet never used it before. One strong enough to block fused Zamasu's blade. Who had just survived the Final Kamehameha with ease.

He's never had a broken sword for him to have the idea to try such a thing before. Zamasu was also supposed to have been weakened and he's also half immortal. His Ki Blade doesn't have to be anywhere near as strong as the Final Kamehameha.

We have to swallow that he can do a spirit bomb by accident, focus it into his sword by accident, and control all that ki.

He did do the spirit bomb by accident and that is odd and it might be explained yet so we'll have to see. He didn't put that power into his sword by accident though, he absorbed the spirit bomb and then he poured that energy into the sword like he'd just done with the Gold sword. No reason why he couldn't control the Ki either because Krillin was able to when he was given the Spirit Bomb.

We have to swallow that afew dozen survivors, a weakened base Goku and Vegeta and Trunks > Fused Zamasu (Black x Zamasu's powerlevel)

Well yeah that one is kinda odd but just because Goku and Vegeta were in their Base forms doesn't mean he couldn't have given them all their internal power. Like I saw someone somewhere say, Goten and Trunks didn't transform or fuse in order to give all their energy to the Spirit Bomb. Goku on his own was already stronger than Fused Zamasu at the start of the episode and he wasn't as strong as Trunks.

[TBMx]

Nothing wrong with that because like I said there's been characters who've pulled out moves after just seeing them the once, mainly with the Kamehameha.

Yes, but it was kept rare. As I said:

I don't think you understand. There isn't anything inherently wrong with asspulls. It can be a useful writing tool to surprise and impress the audience. As long as it's kept rare. Too many in too short a span of time and it unbalances the character and destroys the plausibility of the narrative.

It'd just mean that he wnt from being in between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 Goku to being in between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue Goku. The difference between these forms isn't all that clear.

Are you really defending ssj2 Trunks leaping from ss2 Goku level to around SSB Goku (when he survived the Rose Kamehameha), with only a couple of days training when it took Goku the god ritual and training with Whis for months to get that far?

Really?

I suppose that one is true but being as the mafuba had no real significance in the end with it not being the technique that finished them off then it's not that big of a deal.

Doesn't matter. It still adds to the bs. Again, these things add up.

What's wrong with that? If he weren't miles off from being about that level beforehand then if he got a new transformation that's much stronger then why can't it be stronger than SSJB Vegeta?

Up till this point SSB Vegeta was established as equal to SSB Goku in the saga just preceding this. (Copy Vegeta). Trunks, a younger character surpassing two super saiyan gods, just because he got angry in a random, unexplained transformation never seen before. And you ask what's wrong with it? Why didn't he do that before when his mother died? Or when Mai got shot? I guess he wasnt angry enough. I guess he just didn't care enough.

We have to swallow that he knows the ki sword technique yet never used it before. One strong enough to block fused Zamasu's blade. Who had just survived the Final Kamehameha with ease.

He's never had a broken sword for him to have the idea to try such a thing before.

He's seen both Zamasu and Black do it. If he could make ki blades, why didn't he shoot out ki blades before? Why didn't he impale Black?

Zamasu was also supposed to have been weakened and he's also half immortal. His Ki Blade doesn't have to be anywhere near as strong as the Final Kamehameha.

He wasn't weakened seeing how he tanked vegito's finisher flew up and proudly declared his godhood. Thats not weakened. He wasn't even out of breath.

We have to swallow that he can do a spirit bomb by accident, focus it into his sword by accident, and control all that ki.

He did do the spirit bomb by accident and that is odd and it might be explained yet so we'll have to see.

Again, Goku's most powerful attack randomly and instantly done by accident. Without even the charge times or having to lift his hands up and leave himself vulnerable. All the strengths, none of the weaknesses. That's classic Mary Sue.

He didn't put that power into his sword by accident though, he absorbed the spirit bomb and then he poured that energy into the sword like he'd just done with the Gold sword.

Then why did he have a surprised look on his face when he looked down and the sword turned blue?

No reason why he couldn't control the Ki either because Krillin was able to when he was given the Spirit Bomb.

Krillin had live coaching from Goku.

Well yeah that one is kinda odd but just because Goku and Vegeta were in their Base forms doesn't mean he couldn't have given them all their internal power. Like I saw someone somewhere say, Goten and Trunks didn't transform or fuse in order to give all their energy to the Spirit Bomb. Goku on his own was already stronger than Fused Zamasu at the start of the episode and he wasn't as strong as Trunks.

Goku stronger than Fused Zamasu? "internal power" overpowering a power multiplication? It's just bs upon bs...come on.