"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kishido]

the form could be like ssj2, goku didn't explain that form until the middle buu arc and that was a long arc.
but going how the anime explains things, make your peace now.

No it isn't. At the Cell arc the whole goal has been to go beyond super Saiyan. And Gohan did so.

It was explained. Trunks is a walking asspull.

From non sensing god ki to god level with god ki aura and able to sense in just some days... And as I have written more than once NOBODY asked what happened. Not eve Vegeta.

For USSJ, SSJ2, 3 and SSB we got reactions from others asking what it is.

Completely ignoring the ridiculous Mafuba learning and Genkidama like spirit sword while in this form.

Goku and Vegeta should be ashamed. One needed training for half a year and the other until today isn't able to do a Genkidama while in SSJ form and needs to ask people first if he can suck their energy

actually no, it wasn't. The whole point was to master super saiyan. That's why they went into the time chamber. Gohan transformation came out nowhere because he has been angry before and he never got that strong, hell he got angry when he transformed the first time, but we never really know how much power he gains because they are inconsistent number wise, Goku was the one who said this is a saiyan beyond saiyan or saiyan ascended or super 2, that's when we got the name. No one during that time said anything close to that, your best case ofexplanation might be trunks who said Gohan did it right by increasing power without sacrificing speed but that makes no sense because goku knew that already. basically, if what trunks said is true which it was not as it was more complicated than that, then goku could have reached ssj2

<ancient illegal scanlations removed by moderator>

And that wasn't even the point of my post

[Neon Z]

The anime does not go into detail how the ring works. It is left ambigious. It protects Black and how it "protects" him is shown on the chart. You have to take everything from the anime and everything from the chart. Beerus' event causes a split. Nothing before or anything else. Nothing is erased. It is a safety timeline. If an alternative timeline would have existed before the Beerus split then it would not have been a "Beerus split" because only what is actually one can split.

It's really not left ambiguous. They only mention that the ring protects from the past being changed, and so he continues existing. That's it. Your "safety timeline" concept is adding way too much that just isn't there originally.

[Cetra]

It's really not left ambiguous. They only mention that the ring protects from the past being changed, and so he continues existing. That's it. Your "safety timeline" concept is adding way too much that just isn't there originally.

Of course it is left ambigious. Black says the ring protects his existence, no matter what happens in the past. How that manifests was NEVER EVER mentioned. The safety timeline explanation I have given you is exactly what the official chart shows by just adding the element of the ring that is in the anime. And yes, even that was already possible with the stuff the anime presented. Or better said, "possible".

[Draconic]

A causal loop just works that way. It has no origin. The existence of the Time Ring, which doesn't create alternate timelines, would allow such a thing to transpire. Beerus puts and end to the loop, but the time rings allows Black to still exist even with it broken. There is no need for a reason to be given why the loop happened, as the existence of the Rings tells us enough.
Why the loops is used as a plot device? Well, exactly what I was talking about earlier, to further Zamasu's character. It helps flesh his motives out. The manga skips it and it does it for the worst.

[Cetra]

A causal loop just works that way. It has no origin. The existence of the Time Ring, which doesn't create alternate timelines, would allow such a thing to transpire. Beerus puts and end to the loop, but the time rings allows Black to still exist even with it broken. There is no need for a reason to be given why the loop happened, as the existence of the Rings tells us enough.
Why the loops is used as a plot device? Well, exactly what I was talking about earlier, to further Zamasu's character. It helps flesh his motives out. The manga skips it and it does it for the worst.

What you think how the bootstrap would have worked would mean Beerus was not always involved. Which is not what the chart shows.

[Nejishiki]

That is just something that Herms thought when he tried to make sense of the story. He thought there was a time when Trunks did not come back. There was not. Trunks came back. Zamasu's grudge grew. Beerus destroyed Zamasu but because of the time ring and the fact the bootstrap ALWAYS happened and Beerus was ALWAYS involved he had no idea that he was a necessary element and that the time ring had priority over his own power. He destroyed Zamasu and as the chart states, time splits to guarantee there is a Zamasu left that can become Black. Black goes to Trunks. Trunks travels back. Rinse and repeat.

Is that something he posted in this thread? I'm not referencing it. Goku Black originates from Goku's era and Future Trunks time traveled to before Goku Black was created. The origin point is never specified so it was never important in the narrative's eyes. What is vital information is that Goku's era and Future Trunks' era are continuously crossing with each other before the main story we experience ends it. It's only when Beerus ends Zamasu when history is "reorganized" to those two eras.

[Basako]

Hi all, my first post in here, I was reading so much trash about the manga and I couldn't resist. I'm a manga defender and, yeah, I think it's much better than the anime in many ways, like storytelling, power levels and fight choreographies. But, let's talk about the recent leaks.

For now, we have the reunion of Goku with Zeno and how he gives him the button, that's exactly the same. Then we have some images of the gang in capsule corp, now with Kibito too. A page that looks like a flashback of how Trunks saw Black's face for the first time. Finally, some pages where they are already in the other timeline, with Trunks passing the senzu bean to Mai, very similar to the anime, and Goku and Vegeta facing Black for the first time.

Did I miss something or there is nothing about the paradox yet? I don't know if there will be, like in the anime, where Black's first visit leaded Goku to visit Zamasu, but, for now, I haven't seen it. There is also to be revealed how Beerus killing Zamasu will be handled, which is crucial to this matter, so we have to wait.

About the characterization of Zamasu in the manga, for now, it's just right. We saw a fight against Kibito where he had to be stopped, by the way, refreshing to see a secondary character like Kibito having a fight, we have had enough of Goku and we will have more. Don't get me wrong, Goku is my favorite character and I love to see him fight, but I think others have to have their moments too. Then he learns that Goku killed Majin Boo, so he starts to be interested about him, annoyed that he has that high power and watching him in Godtube. We also have a further characterization in planet Babari, where he kills that guy and a large conversation with Gowasu. Well, don't tell me that he is not been characterized just because he didn't fight with Goku, he has had enough development and we may see more yet.

[Cetra]

That is just something that Herms thought when he tried to make sense of the story. He thought there was a time when Trunks did not come back. There was not. Trunks came back. Zamasu's grudge grew. Beerus destroyed Zamasu but because of the time ring and the fact the bootstrap ALWAYS happened and Beerus was ALWAYS involved he had no idea that he was a necessary element and that the time ring had priority over his own power. He destroyed Zamasu and as the chart states, time splits to guarantee there is a Zamasu left that can become Black. Black goes to Trunks. Trunks travels back. Rinse and repeat.

Is that something he posted in this thread? I'm not referencing it. Goku Black originates from Goku's era and Future Trunks time traveled to before Goku Black was created. The origin point is never specified so it was never important in the narrative's eyes. What is vital information is that Goku's era and Future Trunks' era are continuously crossing with each other before the main story we experience ends it. It's only when Beerus ends Zamasu when history is "reorganized" to those two eras.

That posts sounds way more like what I say. It seemed to be different from what you said before though.

Did I miss something or there is nothing about the paradox yet? I don't know if there will be, like in the anime, where Black's first visit leaded Goku to visit Zamasu, but, for now, I haven't seen it. There is also to be revealed how Beerus killing Zamasu will be handled, which is crucial to this matter, so we have to wait.

The bootstrap does not need Goku to reset itself and continue the cycle. It just needs Trunks to travel back, lead to Black who leads to Trunks travelling back.

[HeroR]

A causal loop just works that way. It has no origin. The existence of the Time Ring, which doesn't create alternate timelines, would allow such a thing to transpire. Beerus puts and end to the loop, but the time rings allows Black to still exist even with it broken. There is no need for a reason to be given why the loop happened, as the existence of the Rings tells us enough.
Why the loops is used as a plot device? Well, exactly what I was talking about earlier, to further Zamasu's character. It helps flesh his motives out. The manga skips it and it does it for the worst.

I personally think the story can work just fine without the paradox.

But the paradox does make things interesting since the heroes indirectly created their own misery from Trunks traveling for help, Goku meeting and fighting Zamasu, Beerus and Whis asking about the Time Rings and showing it to Zamasu, to Gowasu providing everything Zamasu needed to carry out his plan. It also gives Goku and Zamasu a personal connection, while the manga just had this rouge Kai who decided to body jack Goku and Goku is like, 'I never even met you'.

If the manga had more time to flush things out, the more linear approach could have been just as good as the paradox route. As it's present here, it just hallow.

[ekrolo2]

I don't see how there's a loop in the manga: Zamasu's interest in Goku is completely divorced from anything Trunks does whereas in the anime Trunks HAS to show up (fuck off Toei's chart, you don't make sense) for Goku to meet Zamasu to spur his attention to Goku.

[Nejishiki]

That posts sounds way more like what I say. It seemed to be different from what you said before though.

It's the primary explanation I cite in these discussions. I can only assume you took issue with me speaking of what started the chain. For the sake of getting the main idea across, I dropped it to re-explain the same point. That would be the two eras "looping" with each other before break.

[Draconic]

About the characterization of Zamasu in the manga, for now, it's just right. We saw a fight against Kibito where he had to be stopped, by the way, refreshing to see a secondary character like Kibito having a fight, we have had enough of Goku and we will have more. Don't get me wrong, Goku is my favorite character and I love to see him fight, but I think others have to have their moments too. Then he learns that Goku killed Majin Boo, so he starts to be interested about him, annoyed that he has that high power and watching him in Godtube. We also have a further characterization in planet Babari, where he kills that guy and a large conversation with Gowasu. Well, don't tell me that he is not been characterized just because he didn't fight with Goku, he has had enough development and we may see more yet.

A fight against Kibito who is weaker than base Buu arc Gohan is not interesting at all. The planet Babari and GodTube stuff happens in the anime too. Those are used to explain Zamasu's doubts about mortals. But going from that to committing genocide and deicide is a loooong way, which being humiliated in a fight with Goku gives more credence to.

I don't see how there's a loop in the manga: Zamasu's interest in Goku is completely divorced from anything Trunks does whereas in the anime Trunks HAS to show up (fuck off Toei's chart, you don't make sense) for Goku to meet Zamasu to spur his attention to Goku.

Beerus kills Zamasu just because Trunks came back in time, which happens because Black attacks Trunks' future.

[Cetra]

That posts sounds way more like what I say. It seemed to be different from what you said before though.

It's the primary explanation I cite in these discussions. I can only assume you took issue with me speaking of what started the chain. For the sake of getting the main idea across, I dropped it to re-explain the same point. That would be the two eras "looping" with each other before break.

I would never discuss "what starts the chain" because a bootstrap has no start. If anything I mention "which elements repeat within the cycle". What I am discussing here about is how the chart never mentions how there is stuff erased, just like some people think and how the anime also did not leave it as unequivocal that things could be erased but that "Black just was protected". I point out how the anime also gave the option that the bootstrap worked differently and that the chart gave confirmation on how this bootstrap always involved Beerus and the ring being more powerful than him, leading to Black with the 1st line from the right, what I call the "safety timeline".

[ekrolo2]

I don't see how there's a loop in the manga: Zamasu's interest in Goku is completely divorced from anything Trunks does whereas in the anime Trunks HAS to show up (fuck off Toei's chart, you don't make sense) for Goku to meet Zamasu to spur his attention to Goku.

Beerus kills Zamasu just because Trunks came back in time, which happens because Black attacks Trunks' future.

Ah, that's a very good point.

I'm assuming they're going to do the anime thing where Black's history existed until current events erased it but the Ring protects him?

[Draconic]

I don't see how there's a loop in the manga: Zamasu's interest in Goku is completely divorced from anything Trunks does whereas in the anime Trunks HAS to show up (fuck off Toei's chart, you don't make sense) for Goku to meet Zamasu to spur his attention to Goku.

Beerus kills Zamasu just because Trunks came back in time, which happens because Black attacks Trunks' future.

Ah, that's a very good point.

I'm assuming they're going to do the anime thing where Black's history existed until current events erased it but the Ring protects him?

Probably. I guess that is the confusing stuff Toriyama was talking about, not the Goku vs Zamasu thing which is Toei's stuff most likely.

[Basako]

The bootstrap does not need Goku to reset itself and continue the cycle. It just needs Trunks to travel back, lead to Black who leads to Trunks travelling back.

If events involving Zamasu learning about Goku, about the dragon balls and stealing his body happened without any involvement of Trunks's arrival, there wouldn't be any paradox there, and for now it's like that in the manga. On the other hand in the anime, Zamasu learning about Goku is a direct consecuence of Trunks arriving to Goku's timeline escaping from Black, so it's a total paradox. A loop without origin, which I personally dislike as plot. I'll dislike it if it happens in the manga too, but for now it hasn't.

[Cetra]

Probably. I guess that is the confusing stuff Toriyama was talking about, not the Goku vs Zamasu thing which is Toei's stuff most likely.

How do you think "a history is erased by a bootstrap being broken" when the bootstrap cannot suddenly bring in Beerus if he has never been there before? That is why there never was a "history that was erased from a third timeline" but instead this third timeline just resulting from Beerus within the cycle. The chart was very clear with saying "a split into 2 timelines" not "oh, btw. one overwrote the other one".

[ekrolo2]

As for the actual story content, I'm not a fan of what Geekdom stated.

There are some fun gags and I do like the fact they're going to remove at least one trip back into the past but I really don't like how Black's whole mystery gets solved in the span of a single conversation. Toyotaro probably thought adapting Ep61s content directly would take too long but this some serious bonercide when it comes to the drama.

[Nejishiki]

I would never discuss "what starts the chain" because a bootstrap has no start. If anything I mention "which elements repeat within the cycle". What I am discussing here about is how the chart never mentions how there is stuff erased, just like some people think and how the anime also did not leave it as unequivocal that things could be erased but that "Black just was protected". I point out how the anime also gave the option that the bootstrap worked differently and that the chart gave confirmation on how this bootstrap always involved Beerus and the ring being more powerful than him, leading to Black with the 1st line from the right, what I call the "safety timeline".

And for clarification on my end, I'm stating Beerus is the reason history is reorganized at all. Future Trunks doesn't have the power to do so. He may only spark Beerus to end matters. We were in the middle of repetition thus the audience witnesses similar events. This "safety timeline" would be synonymous with Goku's era. I often chart how time is fluid and that it can be viewed as locations instead. The pathway isn't linear and the "areas" are subject to be affected.

[Neon Z]

It's really not left ambiguous. They only mention that the ring protects from the past being changed, and so he continues existing. That's it. Your "safety timeline" concept is adding way too much that just isn't there originally.

Of course it is left ambigious. Black says the ring protects his existence, no matter what happens in the past. How that manifests was NEVER EVER mentioned. The safety timeline explanation I have given you is exactly what the official chart shows by just adding the element of the ring that is in the anime. And yes, even that was already possible with the stuff the anime presented. Or better said, "possible".

It's not the same at all. You're saying that the ring is somehow bending reality (even before Zamasu gets it) in order to create a chain of events where he escapes from Beerus' investigation and gets the time ring itself. That's very different and a large expansion from the ability mentioned in the anime, which just says that even if due to time traveling he's killed before getting the ring, he'll continue existing due to the ring itself.

The issue here is how he'd get the ring in the first place, since his original timeline seems to be identical to the one we follow up to the point where Beerus killed him in the main one. The official timeline gives no reason for the different events, just says that they split based on Beerus killing him. It doesn't explain how or why he escapes in that timeline where he isn't killed. This is all your conjecture which gives an ability to the time ring that's not even suggested in the official material we have.